Was Mary Sinless?
- Thread starter randyk
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
John 14:9
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Jesus is God being manifested to man in terms as a man thinks and speaks.
The Angel of Jehovah was God being manifested to men in terms and thoughts of an angel.
Angels and men share many similar ways of expression.
,,,,,
I was speaking in reference to created beings that are to serve God.
Before man was created?
There were only angels that had been created to serve God.
On earth, as it is in heaven. As is God ruling over the hosts in heaven, so is Christ ruling over the kings on earth.
You seem, to me, to infer that the Word couldn't possibly appear as a man, not born of a woman. My stance is that angels appeared as men, not born of women, such as the example I gave in 2 King 19:35 ( which you conveniently didn't answer). This angel slew 185,000 men. My question, sir, is, was this angel just a vision? Yes or no.
Catholics draw upon Luke 1:28 to show Mary's privileged position to have become the Mother of Jesus, Son of God. And so she was!
I would prefer to look on the fact that it was her child that was being emphasized, and much less so his Mother. It wasn't praising Mary, but rather, remarking about her privileged position. It was the coming of the Messiah that was being noted, and not just the Mother's presence.
I recommend you read Hebrews. Jesus became the fulfillment of a Priest, Temple, and Sacrifice.
Heb 2.17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Heb 9.11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.
Heb 9.26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Yes, you have a point. Whether father or mother Jesus received flawed human flesh rendered "perfect" by the Divine act of incarnation. My point, however, was that human works had to be bypassed. Jesus could not have been the "work" of Joseph in sexually impregnating Mary. Marry, in this sense, was a passive recipient of the miracle of Incarnation. But thanks for making a great point. It wasn't that DNA perfectly comes by the Mother.
Such angel was certainly not a vision, but they were not Lord Jesus either, as an angel is a servant of God, not God himself. The Word couldn't possibly dwell among us before He became flesh and dwelt among us according to God's own schedule.
And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (Rev. 19:10)
Thanks
Yes - the emphasis on Jesus without doubt - but to be honour to have been chosen should be taken lightly and IMO she should be highly respected (obviously not worshipped)
Heb 2:17 is Propitiation which has a different meaning to Atonement - any passages Jesus death was an Atonement
Jesus is the atonement.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
When a person is baptized with the Holy Ghost, they receive the atonement.
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Romans 5:8-11
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
When a person is baptized with the Holy Ghost, they receive the atonement.
Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Not sure if this was to my comment raised, apologise if it wasn’t.
Yes noted - but it doesn’t say Jesus death was an Atonement.
I may be wrong, but my understanding is - "atonement" is an expression of contrition and an appeal for forgiveness made by or on behalf of the one who sinned.
As to Matt 3 - this has troubled me for a long time - 'but he that cometh after me' - Jesus was here already so I don’t understand this!
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 1:29
.
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 1:29
.
What is your point?
What is your actual stand?
Say it plainly, please.
Do you believe that as of this moment?
That Jesus is. Or is not, not God... as God wants Himself to be presented to man?
Let's stop wasting time, please.
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement (Greek = katallagē).
the word "atonement" is translated from the Greek word katallagē which means reconciliation (restoration) as the resulting of Christ exactly (precisely) exchanging His righteousness (blood) for our guilt (HELPS Word-studies).
According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, katallagē means the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled (Greek = katallássō) us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (Greek = katallagē);
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling (Greek = katallássō) the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (Greek = katallagē).
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled (Greek = katallássō) to God.
The word "reconciled" in 2 Cor 5:18 and 20 and the word "reconciling" in 2 Cor 5:19 are translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.
God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.
The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes, hence the plea "we pray you, in Christ's stead be ye reconciled " in 2 Cor 5:20. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (both God and the person are reconciled ... i.e. Greek katallássō).
Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not provided all that is necessary for them to be reconciled, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the reconciliation ... there is no other way.
Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is reconciliation to God.
If a person rejects the Lord Jesus Christ ... who is the Way, the Truth, the Life ... there is no reconciliation with God because the party of the second part is not in agreement with God (the Party of the first part).
The death of the Lord Jesus Christ was required because without shedding of blood, there is no remission.
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
... it is the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ that makes atonement.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
.
So you are saying that it was impossible for God, the Word, to do what an angel did. " For with God NOTHING shall be impossible." Luke 1:37 The angels are spirits also but sometimes can take on human form, without being born of a woman. P.S. I never implied that the angel who slew 185,00 men was the Word, but I'm also not saying that it wasn't possible.
The entire OT Law was about atonement for sin, and Jesus said he was the complete fulfillment of the Law.
Dan 9.24 Seventy ‘sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
Mat 5.17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.