Was Mary Sinless?

[Lovette]

First of all, I NEVER try to " figure God out ", an exercise in futility. The Word, who manifested as Jesus on earth by putting on flesh, " humbled Himself " and became" a little lower than the angels" for the suffering of death. In His humble state don't you think He became a Servant of the Father? He said Himself that He came " to do the Fathers' will." Isn't that what a servant does? I base my beliefs on what scripture says, to the best of my ability, mostly ( I have to be honest). When the Bible says that Abram calls one of the three visitors Lord, if it was just an angel, the angel, as in other places in scripture, would have corrected him immediately, but the Angel didn't. That lets me know that it was the Lord, in human form, that ate and drank with Abram. It was the Word, veiled by flesh, who visited Abram and met face to face with Moses. It was the Father who stated no one could seer Him and live. There is no instance where I find, in scripture, the Holy Spirit indwelling a body that was not born of a woman. So if an angel, who are spirits, as stated before, can appear as men what limits have you put on God the Word to not have done the same?

Your belief is formed on garbled chronology and retcon - retroactive continuity, revising history to justify the present. In the cases of Abraham, Jacob and Moses, God spoke to his people through mediums, that one of the three visitors was one of them. I've repeated this many times that "angel" simply means messenger, it doesn't have to be a winged mythical creature. Since the establishment of the Levitical priesthood, God spoke through the priests; ever since the exile, through the prophets; only did he spoke directly when he incarnated as the Word; afterward, through the indwelling holy spirit, the HELPER, in his disciples. That's the mechanism. Therefore, unless that man was born of the Holy Spirit and conceived by virgin Mary, it couldn't be the Word "veiled by flesh", because there was no such thing until the incarnation, the Word didn't become flesh until it became flesh at God's appointed time and place., and His identity was still veiled the whole time until Revelation.

 

[lrs68]

The Torah teaches us that God walked with Adam in the Garden, He spent time with Abraham, Jacob, Moshe, Joshua was even allowed to fleece Him in one on one situations.

Obviously, we see the Torah explain that during the destruction of Sodom that after meeting Abraham the LORD rained fire and brimstone from the LORD in Heaven {showing us how God is able to be in multiple places at once because the usage of the term capital letters LORD being on earth and Heaven simultaneously is speaking about the very same specific Deity}.

Clearly we have enough Christophonies to understand that the WORD has been the dedicated connection between God and man throughout the Tanakh and the New Covenant.

 

[Genez]

Your belief is formed on garbled chronology and retcon - retroactive continuity, revising history to justify the present. In the cases of Abraham, Jacob and Moses, God spoke to his people through mediums.

You are being quite stubborn in regards to this issue for some reason.
I wonder who put that bug in your head. Some pastor?

 

[Lovette]

You are being quite stubborn in regards to this issue for some reason.
I wonder who put that bug in your head. Some pastor?

Is it stubborn to insist that God only incarnated one time, he couldn't come in flesh before he did come in flesh?

 

[lrs68]

John 8:56
Jesus said, Abraham "rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Abraham only saw this day if he saw Jesus before becoming Jesus.

 

[Lovette]

The Torah teaches us that God walked with Adam in the Garden, He spent time with Abraham, Jacob, Moshe, Joshua was even allowed to fleece Him in one on one situations.

Obviously, we see the Torah explain that during the destruction of Sodom that after meeting Abraham the LORD rained fire and brimstone from the LORD in Heaven {showing us how God is able to be in multiple places at once because the usage of the term capital letters LORD being on earth and Heaven simultaneously is speaking about the very same specific Deity}.

Clearly we have enough Christophonies to understand that the WORD has been the dedicated connection between God and man throughout the Tanakh and the New Covenant.

For the purpose of clarity and distinction between God the Father and God the Son, "Christophany" is limited to explicit, unequivocal mentions of the coming messiah in prophecies, such as Dan 7, Is. 53, 63, Zech. 14; otherwise whenever God spoke to his people through an agent, that's a THEOphany. You're free to hold onto your own conviction, I refuse to smudge the Father and the Son into one "Word".

 

[Lovette]

John 8:56
Jesus said, Abraham "rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Abraham only saw this day if he saw Jesus before becoming Jesus.

"My day". Read again.

 

[Lovette]

John 8:56
Jesus said, Abraham "rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Abraham only saw this day if he saw Jesus before becoming Jesus.

And please note that there's no past, present or future for the Godhead, the creator of the universe is beyond time, it's like you watching a video on a media player, you can play forward, backward or jump to any time point, you're beyond its timeline, so is the Godhead beyond our timeline. That's what Jesus meant by saying, "before Abraham, I AM."

 

[bytheblood]

God is not a man.
Yet, Jesus is two natures.
Jesus is spirit in the sense of Deity.
Jesus is not spirit in the sense of angels.
Jesus therefore could not be the Angel of Jehovah.

God as God is cannot be identified with by mere men.
For God is like a foreign language to our thinking.

The solution was to make Himself knowable to man by means of the Son.
Jesus is God, being interpreted to man in human terms, so that man will be able to relate to God by means of human terms.

Consider the following please... John 1:18

No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten Son,​

Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him ​

[He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him ​

and He has made Him known].​

Since Jesus is both man and God in union? He will take what He, as God, knows God is.
Then interprets God to man, with man's capacity for understanding.

Jesus is in a unique position in making God knowable to us.
He acts like a supreme pastor who can exegetes the Scriptures from the original languages
(which are foreign to us) and makes it to be known.

Jesus with his humanity makes God (who was can not see) translated and knowable for us in human terms.

Without Jesus being also God? We could not know God.
For Jesus must take what is incomprehensible for man to see about God,
ands present God to us in a way that we will be able the relate to who and what God is.

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? ​

Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9​

Jesus is God, as God wants us to know God.


......

Although I agree with most of your post, and although Jesus was not the Angel of Jehovah, the Word, who would later manifest as Jesus after putting on flesh, was.

 

[bytheblood]

And please note that there's no past, present or future for the Godhead, the creator of the universe is beyond time, it's like you watching a video on a media player, you can play forward, backward or jump to any time point, you're beyond its timeline, so is the Godhead beyond our timeline. That's what Jesus meant by saying, "before Abraham, I AM."

I agree that there is no past or future in eternity, where God resides, but it's ALLWAYS in the present. That explains the " I AM ". God, who created time for measurements, doesn't RESIDE, except for the 33 yrs. Jesus roamed the earth, in time, but does OPERATE in time.

 

[Genez]

Is it stubborn to insist that God only incarnated one time, he couldn't come in flesh before he did come in flesh?

That is what you were trying to say?

Are you thinking that as to mean that the Angel of Jehovah could not have been God for that reason?
Because that it would mean God came in the flesh pertaining to an angel?

 

[JayWalker]

Are you thinking that as to mean that the Angel of Jehovah could not have been God for that reason?
Because that it would mean God came in the flesh pertaining to an angel?

God never lowers Himself to be like the servants.

 

[Lovette]

Although I agree with most of your post, and although Jesus was not the Angel of Jehovah, the Word, who would later manifest as Jesus after putting on flesh, was.

Was Jesus not the Word?

 

[Lovette]

That is what you were trying to say?

Are you thinking that as to mean that the Angel of Jehovah could not have been God for that reason?
Because that it would mean God came in the flesh pertaining to an angel?

Any agent or entity relaying God's words to his people - as a messenger - was an angel. His appearance to Abraham, Jacob and Moses were THEOphanies.

 

[Lovette]

I agree that there is no past or future in eternity, where God resides, but it's ALLWAYS in the present. That explains the " I AM ". God, who created time for measurements, doesn't RESIDE, except for the 33 yrs. Jesus roamed the earth, in time, but does OPERATE in time.

Good, then the WORD only resided for those 33 years, not anywhere before that. The flow of time-space continuum shall not be disturbed by any interference.

 

[JayWalker]

His appearance to Abraham, Jacob and Moses were THEOphanies.

No, those would have been angels.

God does not manifest Himself as an angel because He is God.

God never lowers Himself to be like the servants.

The flow of time-space continuum shall not be disturbed by any interference.

Except of course when the flux capacitor needs to be excalibrated

 

[bytheblood]

For the purpose of clarity and distinction between God the Father and God the Son, "Christophany" is limited to explicit, unequivocal mentions of the coming messiah in prophecies, such as Dan 7, Is. 53, 63, Zech. 14; otherwise whenever God spoke to his people through an agent, that's a THEOphany. You're free to hold onto your own conviction, I refuse to smudge the Father and the Son into one "Word".

" For the purpose of clarity and distinction between God the Father and God the Son," you seem quite determined to separate Them, while Jesus was determined to do the opposite, to show that He was, even when in human form, the mirror image of the Father, such as " If you have seen Me you have seen the Father." John 14:9 . " I and the Father are one." John 10:30. It seems Jesus doesn't mind "smudging" the Father and the Son into one. " ...stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry..." 1 Samuel 15:23

 

[Lovette]

No, those would have been angels.

God does not manifest Himself as an angel because He is God.

God never lowers Himself to be like the servants.

God talked and acted THROUGH those angels.

 

[Lovette]

" For the purpose of clarity and distinction between God the Father and God the Son," you seem quite determined to separate Them, while Jesus was determined to do the opposite, to show that He was, even when in human form, the mirror image of the Father, such as " If you have seen Me you have seen the Father." John 14:9 . " I and the Father are one." John 10:30. It seems Jesus doesn't mind "smudging" the Father and the Son into one. " ...stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry..." 1 Samuel 15:23

If so, who was yelling from the sky at his baptism?

And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matt. 3:17)

Was he pleading to himself?

“Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” (Lk. 22:42)

 

[bytheblood]

Good, then the WORD only resided for those 33 years, not anywhere before that. The flow of time-space continuum shall not be disturbed by any interference.

You are REALLY getting ridiculous now

No, those would have been angels.

God does not manifest Himself as an angel because He is God.

God never lowers Himself to be like the servants.





Except of course when the flux capacitor needs to be excalibrated

" God never lowers Himself to be like the servants " :" but we see Jesus, God the Word, became a lower than the angels(servants) for the suffering of death," Hebrews 2:9. I find your flux capacitor line hilarious )