Was sex Adam and Eve part of the curse

[Lovette]

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated that "everyone is born with a spouse whom they can just pick up when they come of age like a trust fund".

Until you provide such post, the "hubris and unsubstantiated assumtpions" are wholly on your part.

You did talk about husbands and wives as an established fact, as though there's a spouse dropped from the sky for every good christian. All your talking points were built upon the narrative of already married couple.

I will never say that what God purposed in marriage between a husband and a wife is something He uses "to taunt you".

Do you believe only single men and women are "true disciples"?

Do you believe no married couple is "true disciples"? you can think of no married couple you know who love God? all the married couples you know completely disregard anything God has written in His Word?

And for your information your statement "marriage is corruptible to moth and rust" is just more of your "hubris and unsubstantiated assumtpions".

I believe in historical precedents, without any disregard for marriaged couples. My statement is not unsubstantiated, go read Matt. 22:30. Marriage is for the carnal mind and this mortal life, there's no marriage in resurrection.

 

[Lovette]

I don't understand your point. If not for procreation, which definitely involves sex except for one Person, there would be no nations to preach to.

My point is that we're called by the Great Commission to make discipls, not babies. Our mission field is the nations, not the bedroom. Having nations to preach to or not, leave that to God. Wherever he guides, he provides.

 

[Lovette]

Marriage is not a "worldly distraction". God has established marriage and for you to characterize marriage as a "worldly distraction" reveals your complete ignorance of God's perspective concerning marriage.

Apostle Paul said it is. You're contracting the word of God.

"This I say for your own profit, not that I may put a leash on you, but for what is proper, and that you may serve the Lord without distraction." 1 Cor. 7:35

The same Author that wrote what you quoted also wrote this:

Proverbs 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

Do you really believe that there are married couples who are believers and they do not care for the things of the Lord?

You do know that married couples also "serve the Lord without distraction" notwithstanding the fact that they are in a marriage, yes?

A wife like Jezebl? Delilah? The Hittite women to Esau? Bethsheba to King David? "He who finds a wife is a good thing" might be king Solomon's conclusion, but you know what a better thing is? What king Solomon never got to have a mere glance at? The kingdom of heaven.

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field."

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, 46 who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it."

wow ... your ability to misconstrue what a person says is uncanny.

I was married for 38 years before my husband passed away. We started dating before we were believers. My husband's cousin witnessed to us and we started going to a good Bible teaching fellowship and never looked back. We were blessed by God throughout all the good times and the times that were somewhat rocky.

you need to get a grip if my praising God for something He ordained from the very first chapters of Genesis has you in such a snit.

All I can tell you, grandma, is that time has changed, or reverted back to the previous time before WWII, sociologically speaking; two-parent nuclear family is a unique invention of your generation, it had never been a historical norm no matter how much you'd been taught so. Had I ever been foolish enough to chase after any girl, I'd never known Jesus in the first place. The God I serve called me to bear witness of my Lord and Savior, not myself or any earthly relationship, it's all transient. The first chapter of Genesis is the authentic, unadulterated history through the eyes of God, in contrast to the Big Bang narrative from the devil. I'm awfully sorry that you've taken it personally. I on the other hand understands that not everything's about me, it's His will, not mine.

 

[JesusLives]

In Gen 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

This command was before the fall, yet they didn’t have sex until after the fall.

How do you know that? Just curious.

 

[JesusLives]

Yep. In fact they didn’t have sex until after the fall. And I guess you could say that sexual desire was a result of the fall. I would argue that Adam did not have a “sexual” desire for Eve before the fall (they didn’t know they were naked until after the fall). So, we can say that Adam was cursed with a sexual desire for Eve. Part of Eve’s curse was a desire to control Adam, and there’s a good chance that the one way she could control him, was through his one obvious weakness - sexual desire. Even though Eve would try to control him through sex or withholding of sex, God informed her that Adam would rule over her. This could lead to another part of the curse - Eve’s resentment over Adam having control over her, and her being relegated to giving him sex when he wanted.

To me this only proves they didn't have children until after the fall doesn't mean they didn't have sex before the fall.

 

[JesusLives]

Okay, so here’s the game. I post something and then yall try and disprove it. Then, if you get enough guys who agree with you then Im wrong, regardless if there’s any reasonable possibility. This will be so much fun.

I don't really think anyone is trying to prove right or wrong there are just so many things that are not explained in detail in the Bible and we really have no way to prove if some things happened or didn't.

 

[JesusLives]

Yes, the Fall happened first and probably immediately; Satan probably did not waste any time before tempting them.
IOW, God's command created MFW.

Again the Bible is not clear if is was a quick or took a long time for the fall to happen. It did say that the Lord walked with them in the garden and we have no idea how many times he did that before the fall. Adam, Eve and God could have had many really great conversations together in the Garden of Eden.

 

[JesusLives]

What I affirm:

I DO say that MFW is God-given and actualized via His commands.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28).

These options were illustrated by A&E as eating or not eating the forbidden fruit (Gen 3:1-5), presented by Moses to the Israelites (Deut. 30:19), and by Jesus in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (Luke 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (Gen. 3:24, Rev. 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (Gen. 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1John 3:8) and humanity beginning with A&E (cf. Rom. 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

Other truths I affirm include:

Right reasoning is divine logic and the mind of Christ.
God is love and Spirit-filled Christians reflect divine love to the world.
God and Truth are One, so individual truths are part of the whole truth.
Enough of God's love and truth are revealed to all people in all cultures in all of the world per Rom. 1:20,
so that they are without excuse for choosing atheism/I-dolatry/tulipism.

I also affirm that God-offered grace is resistible, because God-given MFW can be wrongly used to believe/serve Satan.
Do not falsely accuse me of YOUR straw men built with imported terms such as "autonomous".

God gave us free will to choose Him out of love and unfortunately we failed the test but I don't believe God created evil just to test us at all. Satan had a problem and caused the trouble when he got proud and wanted Gods place which no created being can take. We just got caught up in the whole mess, but I am sure glad that God had the salvation plan and Jesus was willing to die to save us and then we have the Holy Spirit to help us in the recovery process to be realigned with God. Jesus robe of righteousness covers us and we can be made whole and accepted again.

 

[JesusLives]

Sex wasn't part of God's curse.

Pain during child birth was God's curse
Adam and Eve were told to be fruitful and multiply before their expulsion from Eden.

God cursed the entire human race forever ,for the single choice Eve and Adam made.
Because the serpent was allowed entry,and knew the one tree to slither into in order to lead Adam and Eve to innocently disobey God's orders.

What many don't understand is,the fall was God's plan.

Salvation was always God's plan in case of a fall. God knew the fall would happen but he was in hopes his plan for salvation would not have to be used. But it was there in case of a fall which sadly did happen.

 

[JesusLives]

That is debatable.



That is correct.

There is a lot of assuming going on here. We don't know for sure one way or the other. Bible does not give us a blow by blow list of when and how things happened.

They could have had wonderful bonding sex before the fall that just didn't result in children we just don't know.

 

[JesusLives]

Correct.



Correct.



Correct.



Correct, but why and how is the key.



This is where you are losing the plot.

I will drop a hint...

The couple had no shame, i.e., they had no reproductive organs before the Fall.

You don't know that and there is no way to prove it. God would not say be fruitful and multiply if there wasn't a way to do it.

 

[JesusLives]

Just stay focused on God and stop bothering with it. Sex is hurtful and shameful, especially for women, by design it's only purposes are consummation of marriage and reproduction of new human beings. Anything else is about transaction and subjugation.

If you are in a loving marriage it can also be an expression of your love to your mate and bonding you closer together as a couple and at 71 we aren't making anymore babies I can tell you.

 

[Lovette]

If you are in a loving marriage it can also be an expression of your love to your mate and bonding you closer together as a couple and at 71 we aren't making anymore babies I can tell you.

That comes straight from a mentality of entitlement, typical of your generation.

 

[JesusLives]

That comes straight from a mentality of entitlement, typical of your generation.

Lovette, how old are you? We are close to ancient of days here at 71 and you are talking like you are either older or younger than we are or our generations are nowhere close???? We can't be that far apart.

When and how did it become an entitlement when God said it is o.k. for married couples to love each other in a sexual way?

 

[Researcher]

You don't know that and there is no way to prove it.

Thanks @JesusLives and others for sharing your thoughts on some of the things I wrote.

After reading the OP's latest posts, I see that he is trying to discuss an important topic that I do not wish to derail.

I am going to bow out for now. God bless!

 

[Lovette]

Lovette, how old are you? We are close to ancient of days here at 71 and you are talking like you are either older or younger than we are or our generations are nowhere close???? We can't be that far apart.

When and how did it become an entitlement when God said it is o.k. for married couples to love each other in a sexual way?

A much younger one, intelligent enough to know and respect other people's bodily autonomy, and taking pride instead of shame in something else which God also said is OK, in Matt. 19:11-12.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Hi @KelbyofGod . Great question.

I have to go to work so I can expand on this later, but basically the man was originally created spirit and soul only:

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

We are tripartite beings. Most Christians have yet to understand that the Bible teaches that a soul is synonymous with what we now call a genome. That is where the word 'flesh' has a special meaning.

Because the context teaches that man was spirit and soul only, i.e., he had no body yet, we must defer to the rarely used meaning of flesh:

2 Corinthians 3:3 - Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Ezekiel 11:19 - And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:26 - A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The phrase 'tables of the heart' is referring to our genome, our soul (word was made flesh).

Thus, what you see in Genesis 2 is describing, in crude language, the process of gene alteration. The 'rib' is symbolic of a unique genetic type, kind of like a race. Think of the ribs in Daniel. They represent different ethnic genetic types. Scripture interprets Scripture.

Anyhow, the phrase 'bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh' is an idiom referring to sharing the same genetics. It's all about DNA at this point. It's super profound what we are being taught.

View attachment 296104

Strong's Hebrew: 1320. בָּשָׂר (basar) -- Flesh

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the friendly / helpful tone, and the fact that you don't overlook the different aspects of a man, (flesh and soul, plus the spiritual aspect) but think you underestimate what's going on in (especially the first part of) Genesis 2:7

Hold with me on this because it's a bit of a paradigm shift for when/where the different parts occur.

(It's not an argument against what you suggest... just a rearranging of the pieces)

Also I might get some of this wrong as I extrapolate on what God's showed me so far (I've been praying on some of these things for years)


Ok... Here we go:
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,"

Once God mentions "dust of the ground", He's already talking about the physical creation, (man's physical body for example).

All living things are made of dust.

(I'm talking about PHYSICAL "living things" like plants, animals, humans... Not SPIRITUAL "living things" like angels.)

Creating DNA is simply rearranging the dust.

God was able to create all the living physical entities by rearranging the dust. (Plants, animals, and the human physical body.)

Ponder that as long as necessary because every physical genome is covered in/by this rearranging of dust.



Ok, next section:
"...and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;..."

At this point he's (at least) sharing the portion of life that animates every creature that breathes.

(Think about that one a bit, because this step even includes things like personality, because even dogs and apes have individual personalities)



Ok, last section:
"...and man became a living soul."

This is the part that separates us (humans, Mankind) from every other physical creation.

All other living entities (that have an individual personality), have an individual personality that is TEMPORARY. It is tied to the breath of PHYSICAL life. Once their physical body collapses back to the ground and returns to dust, their "spirit" (the breath of life that animated their genome) also falls apart and is no more as an entity.

When man became a "living" soul, that means his "individual personality" (his soul or 'spirit') was made eternal. (It doesn't cease to exist as an entity once the physical form returns to dust.) THAT phrase sets us apart from other creatures, no matter how close our DNA is to theirs. (I.E. neanderthals and other almost-human hominids)

And in terms of "breath of life" and my referring to "individual personality" as being the "soul" or even "SPIRIT", consider this passage:

Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 KJV -
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Thanks for reading.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

I'm telling you to let the bible interpret itself. Was Jesus the second Adam or not? Was he "allowed" to have sex? Did he ever have with anybody? Had he sinned? And does anywhere in the bible state or imply, that one's salvation is hinged upon their reproductive success?

You seem to be frowning upon people "thinking too fleshly about it", then if you wanna think spiritually about it, how about thinking like a spiritual creature, such as an angel - who neither marry nor are given in marriage, Matt. 22:30?

I wasn't frowning on people who think too fleshy about it. I was just saying that if we apply physical thinking/rules to spiritual concepts, we tend to get weirded out and can miss the point entirely (until God can get us back on topic).

For example (and my apologies for the crudeness of this example but I need to make the problem clear).... :

The Bible says that the Church is the BRIDE of Christ. That means every member of the church (including every MALE) has the FEMALE role in the relationship.

If a person thinks about that, picturing the PHYSICAL role of a woman during the "joining" process of Christ with his bride, that could lead to some very wrong conclusions and disquieting thoughts.

 

[Lovette]

I wasn't frowning on people who think too fleshy about it. I was just saying that if we apply physical thinking/rules to spiritual concepts, we tend to get weirded out and can miss the point entirely (until God can get us back on topic).

For example (and my apologies for the crudeness of this example but I need to make the problem clear).... :

The Bible says that the Church is the BRIDE of Christ. That means every member of the church (including every MALE) has the FEMALE role in the relationship.

If a person thinks about that, picturing the PHYSICAL role of a woman during the "joining" process of Christ with his bride, that could lead to some very wrong conclusions and disquieting thoughts.

Therefore it's totally erroneous to preach earthly marriage as a "foretaste of heavenly marriage with the Lord." Marriage shouldn't be idolized as it has been. The union with Jesus is spiritual, not physical.

 

[Burn1986]

ok ... got it. I am glad you are receiving the help you need.

The only way I know of to overcome the things of this world is the Word of God.

Proverbs 1:7 tells us the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. To fear God means to stand in reverent awe of Him ... and the verse makes clear that this is only the beginning of knowledge.

Get to a church which teaches the truth of God's Word ... a church which focuses on and teaches truth concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. Learn to abide in Him so that He can work within you to bring forth fruit in your life.




I understand.

I figure that satan is the one who takes everything that God claims is good and turns it to evil in his efforts to enslave men and women.

The light of God's Word dispels darkness. Psalm 119:105 tells us God's Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. God will show us the way ... the next step we are to take. But we are the ones who have to turn to God from the allure satan holds out to us ... not always easy but God helps us along the way.

Praying for your complete recovery as you turn from the things of this world to the things of God.

.

Thanks dad