Was sex Adam and Eve part of the curse

[tourist]

That comes straight from a mentality of entitlement, typical of your generation.

Can't see how making love has anything to do with a sense of entitlement.

 

[CS1]

In Gen 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

This command was before the fall, yet they didn’t have sex until after the fall.

hmm, interesting. the word of God doesn't say they did not have sex relations before the fall. I don't know. It does use the language that "Adam Knew his wife." which is speaking of sexual relation. I don't want to read into it, but is it possible they did but God had not yet opened the womb of Eve to conceive? God is the giver of all life.

 

[Researcher]

Well, I said I would leave the thread, but it looks like I should stay and chat some more.

@KelbyofGod , I wanted to share my opinions on some of what you said.

When man became a "living" soul, that means his "individual personality" (his soul or 'spirit') was made eternal.

I believe that Scripture teaches that the soul is the genome. This is something I have studied for many decades as it is one of my favorite topics. I have extensive knowledge here. As far as personality, that actually comes from both spirit and soul.

Because our soul is our genome, we are hardwired with certain carnal instincts. That is part of our corruption. The spirit however is the part of us that can overcome the corrupt DNA of the soul. Thus we have:

Galatians 5:17 - For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

It is a constant battle between the two. DNA vs. Spirit. The flesh is simply the genome expressed in a physical form.

The whole point of the Lake of Fire is to destroy the genomes, i.e., destroy the souls that are too carnal to be overridden by the spirit.

Thus we have:

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Unfortunately, the soul is not eternal for those destined for the Lake of Fire.

(It doesn't cease to exist as an entity once the physical form returns to dust.)

Correct. A living organism's soul/genome lives on after death. It goes back to being spirit and soul minus the body. In fact, this is how both resurrections work. God raises the soul and spirit of a person first, then the body comes later. It is a process of stages. Most people have no idea how it works.

...THAT phrase sets us apart from other creatures, no matter how close our DNA is to theirs. (I.E. neanderthals and other almost-human hominids)

Since I believe that the Bible teaches that the soul of a living organism is its genome, I believe that all life has a soul.

...they have all one breath...

Yes. All life has the Spirit of God in it. Spirit is never destroyed. God does not 'kill part of himself' when he throws someone into the Lake of Fire. Spirit is infinite because God is infinite.

...so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast...

Man and beast are both made of eukaryotic (animal) cells. So, that checks out.

...all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again...

But what is 'dust' exactly?

Genesis 28:14 - And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 13:16 - And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

The above are just a few examples of how dust is symbolic of seed in the Word of God. What is seed?

Luke 8:11 - Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The Word of God is the seed. Think of Jesus being Abraham's Seed or even God's soul (Body/Soul/Spirit = Trinity). The word made flesh is what we now call 'gene expression':


Thus, the genome is created first, in the non-physical realm:

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Electromagnetism, i.e., spirit, is then joined with said genome to 'quicken' it from its 'deep sleep'. God then clothes the genome/spirit combination with a body. That is what the two trees in the garden are all about. The two trees were two choices of body types. That is how I know folks here have no clue what they are talking about. They have no idea what the two trees are. I do. Haters are going to hate. Jealousy is such a nasty thing to witness.

Anyhow...

Eden was a non-physical, ethereal, non-corrupted, Heavenly place before the Fall. The man and woman were given the choice of which physical body (covering) to have. They chose the corrupt body we have now. Had they chosen from the Tree of Life, God would have clothed them with the glorified body the redeemed will get one day. Since we all know that there is no procreation in Heaven, the story would have ended there.

Both the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil are one shot deals. This is why the man and woman were not allowed to partake of the Tree of Life once they chose their body. As mentioned earlier, reproductive organs and eating from the Tree of Life are incompatible.

Thanks for reading.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

You bet.

 

[Burn1986]

Classic CC - these threads turn into a fight with each poster making te engaged with shooting “spiritual truth bullets” than actually thinking about truth or what God could be saying. Carry on I guess.

 

[Burn1986]

I’d actually like to see one poster say that his wife did not once use sex to control him.

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

Where do your equations about Adam being water, Eve being blood, and the seed being spirit come from? I can't think of any reference in Scripture to such things, or to their having children as being born again. When Jesus used that phrase, Nicodemus thought Her was talking about a natural birth, and asked if a man could go back into his mother's womb.

I typed a long thought out message explaining my post but then I accidentally deleted it when trying to copy, pastelol.I'll try again hopefully soon tonight.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Having sex is overstepping their boundaries.

You said "such as an angel - who neither marry nor are given in marriage,"

if you are going to say angels do not marry nor or given in marriage and then claim that the sons of God written in in Genesis 6:2 were angels. Then letting scripture interpret scripture means you have rewrite scripture to make your interpretation work if you hope to justify your interpretation since it is written that the sons of God "who saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Electromagnetism, i.e., spirit, is then joined with said genome to 'quicken' it from its 'deep sleep'.

Redefining spirit as "electromagnetism" does not change spirit into electromagnetism.

God is Spirit (John 4:24) ... God is not "electromagnetism".

God then clothes the genome/spirit combination with a body.

God formed a body out of the dust of the ground ... are we in agreement?

That is what the two trees in the garden are all about. The two trees were two choices of body types. That is how I know folks here have no clue what they are talking about. They have no idea what the two trees are. I do. Haters are going to hate. Jealousy is such a nasty thing to witness.

God planted a garden and placed man in it (Genesis 2:8) and made to grow "every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:9). All plant life was pleasant to the sight and, with the exception of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, all plant life was good for food:

According to you, the "two trees were two choices of body types".

While we do not know exactly how much time elapsed before Adam and Eve were banished from the garden, scripture tells us they met with God "in the cool of the day" ... and that Adam named all the beasts of the field when God brought them to him (not sure how long that would take).

Point being ... since the trees were good for food and if the "two trees were two choices of body types" ... Adam and Eve had no need of food if they did not have bodies because they had not made the choice of which "body type" they would be clothed with and yet trees were good for food before the fall.

Anyhow...

Eden was a non-physical, ethereal, non-corrupted, Heavenly place before the Fall.

Agree Eden was non-corrupted before the fall. Do not agree Eden was "non-physical" "Heavenly place".

Eden was a garden planted on earth. Of the four rivers mentioned (Pison, Gihon, Hiddekel, Euphrates), only the Euphrates is known to us today. Hiddekel is believed to be the Tigris river.

So unless the Euphrates and Tigris rivers are in heaven, Eden was a garden planted by God on earth. Do you believe there is a Euphrates river in heaven?

The man and woman were given the choice of which physical body (covering) to have. They chose the corrupt body we have now. Had they chosen from the Tree of Life, God would have clothed them with the glorified body the redeemed will get one day. Since we all know that there is no procreation in Heaven, the story would have ended there.

If Adam and Eve had chosen to eat of the tree of life, what would have become of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Also, would Adam and Eve have had children? Or would heaven consist of Adam and Eve as the only humans?

Both the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil are one shot deals. This is why the man and woman were not allowed to partake of the Tree of Life once they chose their body. As mentioned earlier, reproductive organs and eating from the Tree of Life are incompatible.

Agree that Adam and Eve were not allowed to partake of the tree of life once they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Do not agree that Adam and Eve "chose their body" through their choice to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil since we know from Genesis 2 that God formed the body of Adam from the dust of the ground. God chose the body for Adam.

.

 

[Dino246]

A much younger one, intelligent enough to know and respect other people's bodily autonomy, and taking pride instead of shame in something else which God also said is OK, in Matt. 19:11-12.

You aren't showing any kind of respect. Quite the opposite. That's a surefire way to lose whatever reward that might have awaited you.

 

[Researcher]

@reneweddaybyday . You ask a lot of good questions. I have answers, but my time is limited. I apologize for that.

I would like to start with this:

God formed a body out of the dust of the ground ... are we in agreement?.

Do you believe that man was separated from the Lord after being driven out of the Garden of Eden?

In other words, do you believe that the man and woman enjoyed being in the presence of the Lord before the Fall?

 

[Gideon300]

Exactly!

I was going say something similar but doubt I would have said it so succinctly. Bravo!

Thank you. I normally won't use one word if ten will do. I'm an over explainer.

 

[Lovette]

Jesus often used the aspects and concepts of earthly marriage in his teachings towards heavenly principles. Matthew 25:1-13 for example.

If Jesus (the one who first stated "they neither marry nor are given in marriage") still taught marriage CONCEPTS as relatable in spiritual matters of how God interacts with his followers... On what basis do you suggest they aren't?

On the basis of historical precedents, that neither he, nor Paul, nor Timothy, nor early "desert church fathers", nor generations of priests and nuns and monks were married. Are you suggesting that they're all frauds Hypocrites? Earthly marriage had been THE most worldly thing for the sole purpose of consolidating wealth and power, "romantic love" is a very modern invention.

 

[Lovette]

Nowhere did I ever claim that "there's a spouse dropped from the sky for every good christian". That is more "hubris and unsubstantiated assumtpions" on your part.

As long as you reason on the premise of "already married couple", you're implying "there's a spouse dropped from the sky for every good christian".

A husband is not a husband without a wife.

A wife is not a wife without a husband.

When speaking about husbands and wives, we are talking about people who are already in an established marriage relationship.

See, that's where you implied that "there's a spouse dropped from the sky for every good christian", 'cause there's not a wife for every man and not a husband for every woman. Marriage is not for everyone, and it's not completely within your control. When Paul taught, "let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband," (1 Cor. 7:2), do you really read this as an unconditional promise? That every man is ENTITLED to a wife and every woman is ENTITLED to a husband? You might be in your old age, grandma, but time has changed, drastically. I'm simply not that naive. Paul was simply promoting monogamy and fidelity, that's all.

Are we in the resurrection yet, Lovette?

My understanding is that the resurrection is a future reality.

Do you want a taste of heaven? Of the true union with the Lord? We're not in resurrection yet, but are we already in an intimate relationship with the Lord?

God is the One Who established the marriage relationship. That you equate the relationship God established as "carnal" does not equal God having established what you claim.

Then what if God has NOT established it? What God does NOT join together, let no man force to join together, how about that?

You never answered the questions I asked:

Do you believe only single men and women are "true disciples"?

Do you believe no married couple is "true disciples"? you can think of no married couple you know who love God? all the married couples you know completely disregard anything God has written in His Word?

I wonder if the believing married couples you know are aware of the fact that you believe they are carnal minded, they are not true disciples, they disregard what God has written in His Word.

.

I believe for Christians, once baptized in the name of the holy trinity, married stay married, unmarried stay unmarried. I'm not the one who points finger at anybody for being "carnally minded", Paul is. "For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

 

[Lovette]

Using your logic, eating would also be portrayed in a negative way. Are you advocating that we should stop eating?

In the Olivet Discourse what was "portrayed in a negative way" was "the days of Noe" ... not marriage in and of itself ... but the time period in which Noah lived.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) but the only ones who were with him in the ark were his wife, his sons, and their wives.

.

Keep your strawman to yourself. Show me where in the bible says "there's no eating or drinking in resurrection." The Lord did eat and drink, he was even blasted by the Pharisees for being a glutton, but was he blasted for being a scoundrel? Sleeping around?

 

[Lovette]

Can't see how making love has anything to do with a sense of entitlement.

Who gives you the right to defile another person's body, made in the image of God, to satisfy your own pleasure?

 

[Lovette]

You said "such as an angel - who neither marry nor are given in marriage,"

if you are going to say angels do not marry nor or given in marriage and then claim that the sons of God written in in Genesis 6:2 were angels. Then letting scripture interpret scripture means you have rewrite scripture to make your interpretation work if you hope to justify your interpretation since it is written that the sons of God "who saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

Yes, those angels overstepped their proper domain.

And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

Also, there's heavenly bodies incapable of marriage, while there're earthly bodies capable of marriage. When angels appear on earth, are they in heavenly or earthly bodies?

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (1 Cor. 15:40)

Besides, angels of HEAVEN neither marry nor are given in marriage - in HEAVEN, as spiritual beings; then in resurrection, there's neither marriage nor giving in marriage. The last time I checked, neither are we in heaven nor resurrection.

 

[Lovette]

You aren't showing any kind of respect. Quite the opposite. That's a surefire way to lose whatever reward that might have awaited you.

So lusting after another person's body, using it to fulfill your own desire is respect? Gee, speaking of upside down value system.

 

[Gideon300]

My point is that we're called by the Great Commission to make discipls, not babies. Our mission field is the nations, not the bedroom. Having nations to preach to or not, leave that to God. Wherever he guides, he provides.

Your argument is specious and illogical. God commanded Adam and Eve to procreate. Children are a blessing from the Lord according to God's word. It's unbelievers who treat the unborn as inhuman and like parasites to kill at will. Lord Jesus blessed children. He did not tell His followers to remain childless. Forbidding to marry is downright evil. (1 Timothy 4:3 as you no doubt know).

"Marriage should be honoured by all and the marriage bed kept undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers." Hebrews 13:4. Instead of denigrating marriage, you could try honouring it as we read in Hebrews.​

 

[Lovette]

Your argument is specious and illogical. God commanded Adam and Eve to procreate. Children are a blessing from the Lord according to God's word. It's unbelievers who treat the unborn as inhuman and like parasites to kill at will. Lord Jesus blessed children. He did not tell His followers to remain childless. Forbidding to marry is downright evil. (1 Timothy 4:3 as you no doubt know).

"Marriage should be honoured by all and the marriage bed kept undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers." Hebrews 13:4. Instead of denigrating marriage, you could try honouring it as we read in Hebrews.​

Are Adam and Eve the ancestors of born again Christians only? Or all mankind? If it was a sacred command to procreate, then why did Lord Jesus, the Second and Last Adam, neither marry nor have biological chilren? Why did generations of church fathers and mothers, priests and nuns, swear a sacred vow of celibacy and devote thier whole lives to serve the Lord? Are you telling me they were all frauds? All pagan unbelievers? I'm not forbidding anybody to marry, I'm just telling you the same conclusion of the disciples in Matt. 19:10, that it's better not to marry, it'll only cause trouble in the flesh. Nobody's salvation is hinged upon marriage, getting married doesn't bring you closer to God.

 

[Dino246]

So lusting after another person's body, using it to fulfill your own desire is respect? Gee, speaking of upside down value system.

You make far too many negative assumptions about others and far too many disrespectful comments.