Was sex Adam and Eve part of the curse

[KelbyofGod]

Well, I said I would leave the thread, but it looks like I should stay and chat some more.

@KelbyofGod , I wanted to share my opinions on some of what you said.



I believe that Scripture teaches that the soul is the genome. This is something I have studied for many decades as it is one of my favorite topics. I have extensive knowledge here. As far as personality, that actually comes from both spirit and soul.

Because our soul is our genome, we are hardwired with certain carnal instincts. That is part of our corruption. The spirit however is the part of us that can overcome the corrupt DNA of the soul. Thus we have:

Galatians 5:17 - For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

It is a constant battle between the two. DNA vs. Spirit. The flesh is simply the genome expressed in a physical form.

The whole point of the Lake of Fire is to destroy the genomes, i.e., destroy the souls that are too carnal to be overridden by the spirit.

Thus we have:

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Unfortunately, the soul is not eternal for those destined for the Lake of Fire.



Correct. A living organism's soul/genome lives on after death. It goes back to being spirit and soul minus the body. In fact, this is how both resurrections work. God raises the soul and spirit of a person first, then the body comes later. It is a process of stages. Most people have no idea how it works.



Since I believe that the Bible teaches that the soul of a living organism is its genome, I believe that all life has a soul.



Yes. All life has the Spirit of God in it. Spirit is never destroyed. God does not 'kill part of himself' when he throws someone into the Lake of Fire. Spirit is infinite because God is infinite.



Man and beast are both made of eukaryotic (animal) cells. So, that checks out.



But what is 'dust' exactly?

Genesis 28:14 - And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 13:16 - And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

The above are just a few examples of how dust is symbolic of seed in the Word of God. What is seed?

Luke 8:11 - Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The Word of God is the seed. Think of Jesus being Abraham's Seed or even God's soul (Body/Soul/Spirit = Trinity). The word made flesh is what we now call 'gene expression':

View attachment 296186
Thus, the genome is created first, in the non-physical realm:

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Electromagnetism, i.e., spirit, is then joined with said genome to 'quicken' it from its 'deep sleep'. God then clothes the genome/spirit combination with a body. That is what the two trees in the garden are all about. The two trees were two choices of body types. That is how I know folks here have no clue what they are talking about. They have no idea what the two trees are. I do. Haters are going to hate. Jealousy is such a nasty thing to witness.

Anyhow...

Eden was a non-physical, ethereal, non-corrupted, Heavenly place before the Fall. The man and woman were given the choice of which physical body (covering) to have. They chose the corrupt body we have now. Had they chosen from the Tree of Life, God would have clothed them with the glorified body the redeemed will get one day. Since we all know that there is no procreation in Heaven, the story would have ended there.

Both the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil are one shot deals. This is why the man and woman were not allowed to partake of the Tree of Life once they chose their body. As mentioned earlier, reproductive organs and eating from the Tree of Life are incompatible.



You bet.

I appreciate your response but disagree with the idea that man was created only spirit/soul FIRST.. then obtained a physical form.

Support for that being:

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was NOT first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Thank you. I normally won't use one word if ten will do. I'm an over explainer.

Phew! That means I won't have to compliment you often. Lol

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Lovette said:

You did talk about husbands and wives as an established fact, as though there's a spouse dropped from the sky for every good christian.​

reneweddaybyday said:

Nowhere did I ever claim that "there's a spouse dropped from the sky for every good christian". That is more "hubris and unsubstantiated assumtpions" on your part.​

As long as you reason on the premise of "already married couple", you're implying "there's a spouse dropped from the sky for every good christian".

Lovette, the term "husband" or "wife" naturally implies marriage because the words "husband" and "wife" inherently denote marriage. An unmarried person would never be referred to as a "husband" or a "wife".


reneweddaybyday said:

A husband is not a husband without a wife.​

​

A wife is not a wife without a husband.​

​

When speaking about husbands and wives, we are talking about people who are already in an established marriage relationship.​

See, that's where you implied that "there's a spouse dropped from the sky for every good christian", 'cause there's not a wife for every man and not a husband for every woman.

I never said what you believe I said.

I never implied what you believe I said.

That you misunderstood what I said does not equal my having said what you believe.

Marriage is not for everyone, and it's not completely within your control.

I never said it was.

When Paul taught, "let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband," (1 Cor. 7:2), do you really read this as an unconditional promise?

No, I read it as a response to communication received by Paul from the church:

1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me ...

That every man is ENTITLED to a wife and every woman is ENTITLED to a husband?

I never said that ... God's Word does not say that ... is that what your church is teaching from the pulpit?

You might be in your old age, grandma, but time has changed, drastically. I'm simply not that naive. Paul was simply promoting monogamy and fidelity, that's all.

Time may change drastically. But God does not change. God's design for marriage is the same today as it was back in the garden of Eden.

That satan has deceived folks into what we see in our day and time is disheartening. Why does satan attack marriage? Because marriage is a God ordained relationship between husband and wife and satan will do all he can to undermine anything God has determined is good.

And in saying that, I am not in any way, shape, or form implying that if a person is not married, they are missing out on any blessing from God. God is not a respecter of persons and He blesses all who come to Him.

Do you want a taste of heaven? Of the true union with the Lord? We're not in resurrection yet, but are we already in an intimate relationship with the Lord?

Since we are not in the resurrection yet, then the marriage relationship is still a God ordained relationship in our day and time.

Do you believe that a married person is excluded from having a "taste of heaven" ... a "true union with the Lord" ... an "intimate relationship with the Lord"?


reneweddaybyday said:

God is the One Who established the marriage relationship. That you equate the relationship God established as "carnal" does not equal God having established what you claim.​

Then what if God has NOT established it? What God does NOT join together, let no man force to join together, how about that?

I have never forced anyone "to join together" in marriage.

I believe for Christians, once baptized in the name of the holy trinity, married stay married, unmarried stay unmarried. I'm not the one who points finger at anybody for being "carnally minded", Paul is. "For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Paul was not speaking of marriage in Romans 8:6-8.

And, yes, you did point fingers at married couples for being "carnally minded" ... "Marriage is for the carnal mind".

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:

Using your logic, eating would also be portrayed in a negative way. Are you advocating that we should stop eating?​

Keep your strawman to yourself.

What I posted was in response to your erroneous claim:

Lovette said:​

In the Olivet Discourse, marriage was even portrayed in a negative way​

I merely pointed out that if you are going to claim that Jesus spoke negatively about marriage, why did you not include eating?

Here is what Jesus said:

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark

Jesus was not speaking negatively about marriage, eating or drinking. Jesus pointed out the everyday things people do in their day to day lives.

Jesus was speaking negatively about the time in which Noah lived. Noah was a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5). Noah tried to warn, but people did not listen. Only Noah, his wife, his sons, and their wives were saved. God shut them in the ark ("and the Lord shut him in").

Show me where in the bible says "there's no eating or drinking in resurrection." The Lord did eat and drink, he was even blasted by the Pharisees for being a glutton, but was he blasted for being a scoundrel? Sleeping around?

Again, I merely responded to your erroneous claim that the Lord Jesus Christ portrayed marriage "in a negative way".

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Then what are we arguing? Marriage is not for everyone, in fact there's more single adults than married ones, call it a tragedy if you want.

We are discussing marriage.

Your view of marriage is abysmal and not what God established.


reneweddaybyday said:

We need to take caution when considering marriage. God admonishes us not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers.​

​

Good, it's better to remain UNmarried than marrying an unbeliever.

Some people were married before they were believers. God tells them to remain married ... even if it is only one spouse who has turned to the Lord.

I believe in the word of God: "he who gives her in marriage does well, but he who does not give her in marriage does better." (1 Cor. 7:38)

This verse is speaking of a father who is able to care for an unmarried daughter.

And again, Paul was responding to correspondence he had received from the church concerning these issues.

Where did you get all these crazy ideas from?

Please specify what was a "crazy" idea in what I submitted in response to your "sociologically speaking" concepts.

I'm simply saying to not be bothered with it, the current system penalizes marriage and childbearing, the benefits are on all society, the costs are on the couple alone. That's just the reality, call it satanic or not.

I do not call marriage "satanic".

Realistically speaking, we're not living in the 1st century Judea anymore. Again I don't know which century or country you're living in, the century and country I live in, a legitimate marriage requires a certificate from the government, so neither wedding, copulation, family arrangement nor any angelic announcement establishes a marriage. You can walk down the aisle in a cathedral, have a priest at the altar announce your union with your husband, and escort you straight to the bedroom, but if you haven't acquired that piece of paper, it'd still be fornication.

So what's the point of this? The point is that although God joins the couple in one flesh, government legitimizes it. That may not be biblical, but it's factual. Therefore, render what's God's to God and what's Caesar's to Caesar.

What is biblical concerning the marriage license issue is referenced in 1 Peter 2:13-17.

You think God doesn't know about all the red tape? God tells us to obey civil laws so long as they do not contradict His ways ("We must obey God rather than men"). Even Jesus paid taxes.

Thanks for your concern, grandma. God has already opened my eyes to not be troubled by it at all. He has taught me that singles are not inferior in any shape or form, this obsession with marriage is jsut a social stigma and a political talking point.

No one who has posted in this thread has said singles are inferior.

I disagree that "marriage is jsut a social stigma and a political talking point". Marriage is a sacred union between a husband and a wife. Marriage is consecrated by God. Marriage is a covenant relationship.

Your dismal outlook on marriage reveals that you really do not understand the relationship God established.

.

 

[Lovette]

Lovette, the term "husband" or "wife" naturally implies marriage because the words "husband" and "wife" inherently denote marriage. An unmarried person would never be referred to as a "husband" or a "wife".

Then that's what I was getting at. You speak of it nonchalantly as though it's a natural state everyone's born with, but it's not.

I never said what you believe I said.

I never implied what you believe I said.

That you misunderstood what I said does not equal my having said what you believe.

I misunderstood nothing of your preaching soly based on the narrative of marriage as an established fact. I don't blame you and I meant no disrespect, because that's the fact in Gen. 2:18, God decided it was not good for Adam to be alone, God brought Eve to Adam, God joined Adam and Eve in one flesh, right? I don't know about your reading, madam, but it sounds an awful lot like an arranged marriage to me, which rarely exists today.

I never said it was.

Then stop worshiping it, acknowledge it as a human institution like all other human institutions. Even in the bible the bride was traded for a bride price, which makes marriage essentially a transaction.

“If a man entices a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall surely pay the bride-price for her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the bride-price of virgins." (Ex. 22:16-17)

Then the servant brought out jewelry of silver, jewelry of gold, and clothing, and gave them to Rebekah. He also gave precious things to her brother and to her mother. (Gen. 24:53)

No, I read it as a response to communication received by Paul from the church:

Then again, acknowledge it as a human institution like all other human institutions.

I never said that ... God's Word does not say that ... is that what your church is teaching from the pulpit?

That is every church that teaches "wait until marriage," "save yourself for marriage", "preparing stage for marriage", even though marriage is NOT for everyone.

Time may change drastically. But God does not change. God's design for marriage is the same today as it was back in the garden of Eden.

That satan has deceived folks into what we see in our day and time is disheartening. Why does satan attack marriage? Because marriage is a God ordained relationship between husband and wife and satan will do all he can to undermine anything God has determined is good.

And in saying that, I am not in any way, shape, or form implying that if a person is not married, they are missing out on any blessing from God. God is not a respecter of persons and He blesses all who come to Him.

How about you save that for the LGBTQ proponents, whom I hate more than you do? Indeed, the definition of marriage changes at least according to the Supreme Court's ruling, but God's design for marriage never changes, I never denied that;

my point is that marriage is NOT for everyone, if a person never have the chance to meet anybody, never get married, or more tragically, doesn't even live to marriageable age, what then?

You know, it is written, that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil, but it is often misquoted as money (itself) being the root of all evil, and thus it was used to justify all kinds of evil socialist measures. If you are intelligent enough to distinguish the two, then I'm sure you're equally intelligent enough to distinguish marriage itself and the IDOLATRY of marriage.

Since we are not in the resurrection yet, then the marriage relationship is still a God ordained relationship in our day and time.

Do you believe that a married person is excluded from having a "taste of heaven" ... a "true union with the Lord" ... an "intimate relationship with the Lord"?

I believe a person who pursues marriage for the sole purpose of getting married, of being counted and identified as a "married person", is excluded.

I have never forced anyone "to join together" in marriage.

Then stop worshipping it. Marriage is as godly as the couple, same as any human institution.

Paul was not speaking of marriage in Romans 8:6-8.

And, yes, you did point fingers at married couples for being "carnally minded" ... "Marriage is for the carnal mind".
.

Marriage is for the carnally minded ones who lack self control. A spiritually minded person would have produced spiritual fruits, which include self-control. Again, not my words, but Paul's.

"It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law."

 

[Lovette]

reneweddaybyday said:

Using your logic, eating would also be portrayed in a negative way. Are you advocating that we should stop eating?​

What I posted was in response to your erroneous claim:

Lovette said:​

In the Olivet Discourse, marriage was even portrayed in a negative way​

I merely pointed out that if you are going to claim that Jesus spoke negatively about marriage, why did you not include eating?

Here is what Jesus said:

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark

Jesus was not speaking negatively about marriage, eating or drinking. Jesus pointed out the everyday things people do in their day to day lives.

Jesus was speaking negatively about the time in which Noah lived. Noah was a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5). Noah tried to warn, but people did not listen. Only Noah, his wife, his sons, and their wives were saved. God shut them in the ark ("and the Lord shut him in").



Again, I merely responded to your erroneous claim that the Lord Jesus Christ portrayed marriage "in a negative way".

.

No, you erroneously said "eating would also be portrayed in a negative way", and I explained to you that quite the opposite, it was the Pharisees who criticized Jesus by protraying his eating and drinking in a negative way.

Marriage in particular, though, is portrayed in a negative way in this context because it shows a state of negligence, a lack of watchfulness of the Lord's coming. The same sentiment is echoed by Paul in his teaching - time is short, be spiritually minded of godly things, and remain as you are in regard of marital status. " Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife." In other words, don't marry and give in marriage like those clueless bums Lord Jesus warned about.

"it is good for a man to remain as he is: Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have trouble in the flesh, but I would spare you. But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away."

 

[DavidLamb]

I typed a long thought out message explaining my post but then I accidentally deleted it when trying to copy, pastelol.I'll try again hopefully soon tonight.

It will be interesting to see it.

 

[DavidLamb]

If God reconciles all things unto himself through the blood of his cross then we should see it through child birth by searching out a matter.

Sorry but why should we see God's reconciliation of all things to Himself through childbirth?

The first thing is that it isn't by blood alone that we ourselves were reconciled unto him when we became born again,but it was by spirit,water,blood.And in order it came by water,blood,spirit.
To find the answer how God reconciles childbirth unto himself is simple.
How does seed that is in the image of God come about?
It comes through procreation of a man and a woman.And it comes in the same order in when we were reconciled unto God.
By water/man,
blood/woman,
spirit/seed.

Eve isn't lesser than Adam because she wasn't made in the same matter as Adam was, but came from his rib.They are one as the covenants of the water and blood are one.
It also isn't a coincidence that Jesus was pierced in the rib and out came water and blood.

But it wasn't the rib of Jesus, a bone, that was pierced:

NKJV Jhn 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

Or the fact that Eve is called the mother of ALL living.
The life is in the blood.
That's why I said that when a man and a woman have offspring is it liken to being born again because it comes by water,blood,spirit in that order.
That's why the serpent deceived Eve, and not Adam and why he did it before they had offspring.He knew.The serpent is cunning.
They then became in the image of the beast represented as the brazen serpent on the pole.
By doing so before they bore children the serpent delayed Adam and Eve becoming born again.
Even the birth of Jesus came by water,blood and spirit.Mary who had the DNA of both her parents had a virgin birth from the father(spirit.)

Read Colossians 1:15-20 and that's how the word testifies to what I'm saying.along with Romans 1:20.
Everything which God had spoke into existence,both seen and unseen.And things in heaven consist of spirit,water,blood.

I hope that when you say that Mary had a virgin birth, you don't mean that she herself was born of a virgin. Also where do we read that things in heaven consist of spirit, water and blood? Colossians 1:15-20 doesn't say that, nor does Romans 1:20.

This is what it means that he reconciles all things unto himself through the blood of his cross.
Everything he created comes through spirit,water,blood thereby reconciling it all unto himself.
The essence of God,his Godhead is spirit,water,blood, and can be clearly seen if you know what to look for and how to look for it.Even our bodily functions.
How he reconciles through childbirth is clearly seen.
This is the crazy thing that is mind blowing.When he spoke everything into existence it came by his Word,spirit,water,blood and they became "flesh."
I love that.

But light, the sun, moon, stars, water, dry land and angels were all created by God. None of them became flesh.

 

[Lovette]

We are discussing marriage.

Your view of marriage is abysmal and not what God established.

Yes, it is absolutely abysmal. Did God establish same sex union, wedding industry, no fault divorce, career women and such? I point it on Satan as much as you do, Satan has ruined every blessing of God, I'm just here to tell you that we're living in such ruins. I'm not an idealist as you're, you think you're discussing marriage, what you're doing is worshiping marriage, and totally detached from that ruination. Lord Jesus acknowledged it, He called out the "hardness of your hearts", but he didn't preach to restore marriage, family value or any other kind of conservative talking points, he didn't tell any disciples to get married and make babies, so why can't you?

Some people were married before they were believers. God tells them to remain married ... even if it is only one spouse who has turned to the Lord.

Then it's between them and God. Be careful with this one, I know all too well that your generation have overly romanticized "till death to us part", divorce is absolutely off limits under any circumstance; but the negative side is, if you happen to marry the wrong person, things go sour, there's no way out, and you've only yourself to blame; oftentimes you may be attractive to somebody when you're on the pill, but when you're off the pill he's somehow lost his appeal due to your own hormonal changes, I even as a straight man knows this.

Please specify what was a "crazy" idea in what I submitted in response to your "sociologically speaking" concepts.

THe idea of comparing modern marriage to Mary and Joseph's.

I do not call marriage "satanic".

Unless it's same sex.

What is biblical concerning the marriage license issue is referenced in 1 Peter 2:13-17.

You think God doesn't know about all the red tape? God tells us to obey civil laws so long as they do not contradict His ways ("We must obey God rather than men"). Even Jesus paid taxes.

Then stop worshiping it as the epitome of godliness, when in reality it not only contradicts God's sacred design but also involves a ton of the government's meddling.

No one who has posted in this thread has said singles are inferior.

I disagree that "marriage is jsut a social stigma and a political talking point". Marriage is a sacred union between a husband and a wife. Marriage is consecrated by God. Marriage is a covenant relationship.

Your dismal outlook on marriage reveals that you really do not understand the relationship God established.

You're preaching a prosperity gospel. My "dismal" view on marriage is a sober acknowledgement of the sinful and broken world we're living in, which has infinitesimally deviated from God's original design, that's why we need salvation from the Lord in the first place.