Was the Garden of Eden, literally Heaven on Earth? Was the Earth already fallen except for the Garden?
- Thread starter pittsburghjoe
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Interesting angle. You're saying "replenish" was foreshadowing. Is it from them falling from Glory ..or God knew what Satan was going to do to this place?
Where in Scripture does it say that Adam and Eve did not have "the sin nature" before the fall?
Nowhere.
That is contrary to Scripture. The Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years because they believed a bad report instead of believing God. Moses' only wrongdoing after his call was striking the rock instead of speaking to it, and for that he was denied entry into Canaan.
Instead of inventing ideas about the content of Scripture, accept what it actually says.
The Earth could have been created how Genesis describes, there is nothing preventing God from creating the Earth and then setting the previous history of the Universe to match whatever He designed. If an unfallen Universe even needs a physical history. It's only after satan ruined everything that the universe started to age.
God cursed satan which in turn cursed the fallen ground.
Why do you think Jesus bothered to be born a physical human man instead of just appearing here?
There is a difference between God the Father the Creator and His Son. If God the Father removes HIS presence from Darkness ..then maybe He has removed HIS presence from this fallen place? It sure would explain why so many bad things happen here. The Son and Holy Spirit are present, but they are not going to modify reality to rid us of evil. God the Father is allowing this place to exist for the time being.
For us to know God is for God to know us.
God the Father doesn't want to experience the sin in sinners, so He limits His own knowledge and allows this fallen place to exist. No one wants to admit to satan being the ruler and having authority. satan will be dethroned, but not yet. Jesus removed satan’s claim on us as long as we acknowledge what Jesus did on the cross.
Bad things happen because we asked to be here following satan and to be about ourselves separated from God.
God is only going to allow the people He knows into Heaven.
I hear what you're saying.
As for physical circumcision and childbearing to procure Salvation . . . I tend to believe that these acts reflect the sharing in Christ because of the fact that blood is shed. These ideas are reflections, and I may be wrong, of Christ on the Cross, and that they in all actuality do not procure Holy Salvaiton. Here's what Paul says about physical circumcision:
1 Corinthians 7:19 NIV - "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts." - SAY WHAT???? How can Paul now say that circumcision counts for nothing?!?! Because physical circumcision always pointed to Spiritual Circumcision. This type of circumcision mentioned in 1 Cor 7:19 is the same circumcision mentioned in Ephesians 2:11. Check it out:
Ephesians 2:11 NIV - "Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (which is done in the body by human hands)"
Now check this out . . . here are the "Two Elevens." - Ephesians 2:11 and Colossians 2:11 prove that there are two forms of circumcision, and it is the physical circumcision that represents the Spiritual Circumcision that is founded in Abraham. Below is Colossians 2:11:
Colossians 2:11 NIV - "In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ . . ."
The Two Elevens, in my opinion, are not a coincidence. This is one of the Lord's remarkable ways of showing us how important it is that we understand the Holy Operation of Faith, as fully described in Colossians 2:9-15. It is understanding this Spiritual Circumcision that is key, and this is why we must know and understand Abraham, for he is our Father of Faith, and it is underneath him that we belong to the Family of Circumcision.
Romans 4:12 NIV - "And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised."
Romans 4:12 above is teaching us that Abraham's Heart had been Circumcised by Christ . . . which simply means that God lifted all impurities from Abraham, causing him to be blameless before the Lord. We are to have this same Faith . . . the Faith that comes only by and through Spiritual Circumcision.
Romans 4:16 NIV - "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all."
My friend, I encourage you to make this Doctrine of Circumcision the focus of your life. You can spend years on this Doctrine, and the reason for this is because the entire Bible revolves around it. Without Spiritual Circumcision, there is no reason for Christ to come to earth. That means there would be no reason for the Bible to be written, or that the Tribulation must take place . . . no. Without the Spiritual Work of Christ, there is no point to anything at all. Look at how the NLT translation writes of the Tree in the Garden . . .
Genesis 3:22-24 NLT - "Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!" 23 So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24 After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."
Adam and Eve's Hearts could have been Spiritually Circumcised by eating from the Tree that grants Life, but they couldn't. Why? Because that Tree of Life is Jesus, who hands on the Tree upon Calvary Hill. The Lord has a Plan that He is fulfilling, and Genesis 3:22-24 is our first major clue to it.
One last thing . . . I want you to think about why it is that no one talks about circumcision . . . especially anyone from "church." The answers, as you will discover, prove colossal deception throughout the "church" of today.
This is great perspective and definitely makes me think! I agree the "c" word isn't talked about a lot... I'm sure that's because most people just associate it with the physical version, which obviously refers to the male anatomy. I think that can make it taboo and embarrassing to talk about openly. I definitely know if I just brought it up in my Bible study group (which is all female) there would be some looks at first. lol
However I think this is a really interesting perspective and definitely something I need to study more.
Well well . . . the Lord is opening the mind to one of His Children (of which there are very, very few). You nailed it! You are well on your way to understanding the Mysterious Plan of God, and it all revolves around the concept of circumcision. Now, if that is True, and if it is also True that we are embarrassed to talk about circumcision, then we will assuredly miss the Plan of God. And why wouldn't we miss it? For part of the Curse is to be ashamed of our private parts, hence Adam and Eve looked down at themselves and felt ashamed, covering themselves up. That's right! By default, when creation was placed under a Curse, along with it came this shame (which we read about through the Old Testament). Well, if the physical circumcision that was founded through the name and life of Abraham, and if we have this built in shame over our body parts, it becomes easy to see how we miss the entire point of the Bible, which is to turn to Christ for His exclusive and Holy Spiritual Circumcision.
You are so right! No one wants to think about circumcision while they're sitting in church! Who wants to think of a man's phallus while sitting in God's House!? Ahhhh . . . and this is where we find that the "church" is deceived, for they do not understand why Abraham is our Father of Faith. In short, the Church must change it's understanding of circumcision, and begin preaching Circumcision (capital C). I can testify that after spending about two years looking at this Doctrine, I pretty much only consider the Spiritual aspect of it. I no longer snicker at the word, because it is a most Holy Word. Circumcision points to Jesus on the Cross! And . . . how many of us even realize it? You're about to become the newest member to the Family of Circumcision, and that means that you can know, with full assurance, that you are saved. it is so important that we know and understand this Heart of the Gospel, the Heart of the Bible, which is the Doctrine of Circumcision of the Heart.
Now this passage will make more sense (as will the majority of the rest of the Bible):
Genesis 17:14 NLT - "Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant."
So as you can see, our objective is to Turn to Christ for the Circumcision of our Heart (as described in Col 2:9-15), and in by doing so, we will belong to the Family of Circumcision that is described in the ever-so-important chapter 17 of Genesis. Read Gen 17 . . . it will now blow your mind!
If man became a living soul, is the spiritual death of original sin the disconnect from the last Adam, Jesus?
Could Jesus already be in everyone, but it doesn't mean anything (for now), unless we open the door?
Could Jesus already be in everyone, but it doesn't mean anything (for now), unless we open the door?
The Christ, or the Holy Spirit, cannot Indwell anything that is corrupt. It is only after the Heart has been Circumcised that a person can be considered clean. We cannot be in Christ if we are imperfect, and if we are imperfectly in Christ, then Christ cannot be in God, for God is perfect and He is the originator of the Incorruptible Seed.
Ermm, I thought that was only God the Father that can't indwell anything corrupt. I think that is the whole reason for Jesus. To deal with these corrupt/fallen humans.
here is a bit of what I was trying to get across
“In the beginning God created the heaven. and the earth.”
Genesis 1:1 KJV
understanding these two elements of creation as realms of existence, is in my humble and unqualified opinion is essential To understanding the doctrine of the Bible that comes afterwards even to the end when this is much more revealed
some scriptural references that begins to shape biblical understanding of heaven and earth and how things are ordered in Gods creation with less interpretation needed and more so acceptance of scripture
“The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's:
but the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
Psalms 115:16
Gods creation has an order as we see there . We see this order of God dwelling in the heavens , observing the children of men in the earth and sometimes visiting them by means of angels or men sent from heaven with a message of some kind from God.
But God isn’t dwelling among men the same as he did in the beginning with Adam when the creation was new and had not yet sinned . Now he is observing us
“ The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.”
Psalms 33:13-15 KJV
his habitation is a heavenly kingdom
“The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens;
and his kingdom ruleth over all.”
Psalms 103:19 KJV
“The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psalms 14:2-3
there are many many others to establish this same understanding of Gods kingdom in heaven , and mans God given kingdom on earth which we cursed by transgressing his word
Acceptance and belief of scripture like these we can begin to see that heaven is a real place where Gods kingdom is established . also we see a functionality of God observing us from the heavenly realm , we who are on earth being observed and tried by the lords eyes.
Even from the book of genesis there is the doctrine Christ preached about not having to face death but instead being translated into this realm of the heavens men being saved from death and translated into his kingdom
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:
for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
Hebrews 11:5 KJV
Enoch had “ walked with God “ as a
Man before this translation and never died but was “translated” this is what Jesus Christ promises believers
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51 KJV
like Enoch
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
if there is no condemnation on a person there is no death upon them , and the grave is for the dead , but the kingdom of God is for the living.
we understand it’s about being translated into the heavenly kingdom for us in the church also
“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:”
Colossians 1:13-15
those people who have believed though their flesh has been left to decay they are here alive and well according to his true promises since he was seated on his throne after his birth , death and resurrection
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath,because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:10-12 KJV
Through belief of the gospel we are delivered from this dark power in the world
“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
..Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:”
Ephesians 6:11-12, 16-17 KJV
who seeks to do destroy and devour us
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
1 Peter 5:6-9 KJV
we see in revelation 12 we are those people on earth who are being warned about satans presence in the world , while at the same time celebration is happening in heaven for the redeemed. They are those who believes and were baptized for remission of sins and died in the lord and were translated into the heavens shouting about salvation and warning the earth.
there’s only one heaven and earth , they in the Bible go through a form of a death and resurrection making all things new in Christ Jesus
“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
2 Peter 3:7 KJV
“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
2 Peter 3:13 KJV
The transformation of heaven and earth will be like the changing of mans form
“Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:”
Psalms 102:25-26 KJV ( Hebrews 1:10-12)
Heaven is already new as we see with Christ being seated in heaven and Satan being cast out and barred forever . In the end when Jesus returns the earth will be destroyed utterly and made new again by the lord and those in heaven will then inhabit the new creation and things will be as in the beginning before sin and death
we’re saved into heaven when we pass away from earth , and we will fill the new earth when the time of its restoration restoration comes. The en once again creation will be in harmony both heaven and earth made new through resurrection
“In the beginning God created the heaven. and the earth.”
Genesis 1:1 KJV
understanding these two elements of creation as realms of existence, is in my humble and unqualified opinion is essential To understanding the doctrine of the Bible that comes afterwards even to the end when this is much more revealed
some scriptural references that begins to shape biblical understanding of heaven and earth and how things are ordered in Gods creation with less interpretation needed and more so acceptance of scripture
“The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's:
but the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
Psalms 115:16
Gods creation has an order as we see there . We see this order of God dwelling in the heavens , observing the children of men in the earth and sometimes visiting them by means of angels or men sent from heaven with a message of some kind from God.
But God isn’t dwelling among men the same as he did in the beginning with Adam when the creation was new and had not yet sinned . Now he is observing us
“ The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.”
Psalms 33:13-15 KJV
his habitation is a heavenly kingdom
“The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens;
and his kingdom ruleth over all.”
Psalms 103:19 KJV
“The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psalms 14:2-3
there are many many others to establish this same understanding of Gods kingdom in heaven , and mans God given kingdom on earth which we cursed by transgressing his word
Acceptance and belief of scripture like these we can begin to see that heaven is a real place where Gods kingdom is established . also we see a functionality of God observing us from the heavenly realm , we who are on earth being observed and tried by the lords eyes.
Even from the book of genesis there is the doctrine Christ preached about not having to face death but instead being translated into this realm of the heavens men being saved from death and translated into his kingdom
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:
for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
Hebrews 11:5 KJV
Enoch had “ walked with God “ as a
Man before this translation and never died but was “translated” this is what Jesus Christ promises believers
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51 KJV
like Enoch
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
if there is no condemnation on a person there is no death upon them , and the grave is for the dead , but the kingdom of God is for the living.
we understand it’s about being translated into the heavenly kingdom for us in the church also
“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:”
Colossians 1:13-15
those people who have believed though their flesh has been left to decay they are here alive and well according to his true promises since he was seated on his throne after his birth , death and resurrection
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath,because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:10-12 KJV
Through belief of the gospel we are delivered from this dark power in the world
“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
..Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:”
Ephesians 6:11-12, 16-17 KJV
who seeks to do destroy and devour us
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
1 Peter 5:6-9 KJV
we see in revelation 12 we are those people on earth who are being warned about satans presence in the world , while at the same time celebration is happening in heaven for the redeemed. They are those who believes and were baptized for remission of sins and died in the lord and were translated into the heavens shouting about salvation and warning the earth.
there’s only one heaven and earth , they in the Bible go through a form of a death and resurrection making all things new in Christ Jesus
“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
2 Peter 3:7 KJV
“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
2 Peter 3:13 KJV
The transformation of heaven and earth will be like the changing of mans form
“Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:”
Psalms 102:25-26 KJV ( Hebrews 1:10-12)
Heaven is already new as we see with Christ being seated in heaven and Satan being cast out and barred forever . In the end when Jesus returns the earth will be destroyed utterly and made new again by the lord and those in heaven will then inhabit the new creation and things will be as in the beginning before sin and death
we’re saved into heaven when we pass away from earth , and we will fill the new earth when the time of its restoration restoration comes. The en once again creation will be in harmony both heaven and earth made new through resurrection
I hear you. My perspective comes from the belief that Jesus is God, Jesus is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is God.
I think Christ is in all of us, but He isn't formed unless we open the door.
https://blog.biblesforamerica.org/8-verses-showing-jesus-lives/
So you think Man in GOD's Image had the sin nature? How can Man be with GOD if he has the sin nature?
When GOD is leading you, HE doesn't lead you into the wilderness. The wilderness is pointing to a place where GOD is not.
And the water coming from the rock was pointing to the waters of life - Revelations from GOD. Thats what Jesus His Pre-Eminence meant when HE said to Apostle Peter: On this rock shall i build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail over it. What was the rock? The Revelation that Apostle Peter had about Jesus His Pre-Eminence identity... Why was it Revelation? Because HE said: flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my father which is in heaven.
Okie Doke.
If Jesus died for all sins ..that includes original sin. That means Jesus was in Adam one way or the other. I think Jesus is in all mankind, but the spiritual connection He reapplied via the cross is only available to those that open the door.
