We are not saved by Grace/Faith alone, and I can prove it.
- Thread starter DavidLOVESsnow
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Acts 13:36) For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 .) But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 .) Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 .) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 .) Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 .) Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
37 .) But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 .) Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 .) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 .) Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 .) Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
E
Where you got it wrong is saying God is working hard on our salvation and we must co-operate.
We are either saved or we are not. There is no ongoing salvation. It is either yours or it is not. Your church has it wrong, and are adding works to grace, and twisting it to make you think it is not works..
I HAVE eternal life
I HAVE been justified freely
I HAVE been given an inheritance which shall never fade away
I HAVE been sealed by the HS of God who is the GUARANTEE of my inheritiance.
I HAVE passed from death to life.
There are MANY MORE I haves.. Which your church said YOU MAY HAVE.
God does not give a wishy washy salvation. He says you either have it, or you do not
We are either saved or we are not. There is no ongoing salvation. It is either yours or it is not. Your church has it wrong, and are adding works to grace, and twisting it to make you think it is not works..
I HAVE eternal life
I HAVE been justified freely
I HAVE been given an inheritance which shall never fade away
I HAVE been sealed by the HS of God who is the GUARANTEE of my inheritiance.
I HAVE passed from death to life.
There are MANY MORE I haves.. Which your church said YOU MAY HAVE.
God does not give a wishy washy salvation. He says you either have it, or you do not
This is really the problem. Our will is always against God. It's why we are lost. To be saved all we can do is submit to Gods will. There is nothing in man of redeeming value.
Here we have a guy that dresses like mother and calls himself father. Talks about love but knows nothing about it. This is the kind who will not enter at the straight gate and will not allow any other to do so either. Will bind great burdens upon others but will not lift his own finger to help.
Follow this guys teaching and end up in eternal destruction.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Here we have a guy that dresses like mother and calls himself father. Talks about love but knows nothing about it. This is the kind who will not enter at the straight gate and will not allow any other to do so either. Will bind great burdens upon others but will not lift his own finger to help.
Follow this guys teaching and end up in eternal destruction.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Is it true that man responds to God's grace according to his (man's) will? Is this a colaboration between God and man, yes or no? If it wasn't than we would all be saved regardless of what we chose.
Why do you always feel the need to teach me what my church says. I know exaclty what it says and it doesn't say that works save you.My church teaches me to love God with all my heart, my mind and my being and love my neighbour like I love myself (if not even more than I love myself). My church teaches me that if I only know God intelectually and talk about my beliefs, whithout having love, than I am nothing but a talking, rational morgue. My church encourages me to really know God (love), not to autosuggest myself and auto-motivate myself that I love Him and have faith in Him, when in reality, I do not care about anyone but myself, and my salvation, of course.
Love requires much more than a mental agreement that Jesus Christ has died for my sins.
We have different understanding of what being saved means. While you see salvation from the perspective of a cosmical trial with you being the guilty one, God being the supreme judge and Jesus Christ the one that pays for your redemption, I see salvation as a matter of life and death. I have the possibility of salvation and sanctification thanks to God's incarnation. I can be in communion with God because God has sanctified the human nature when He incarnated in man. When I use the verbs "I can" or "I may", that shows that if I will not meet God, is not because He has turned His back at me, but because I, in my crazyness, rejected God. Is it more clear now the colaboration between God and man?
Also, I do not separate salvation from sanctification (the two of them are done by God's grace, not because of my merits) and as long as I sin (I am incapable of not sinning, only God is saint) I will never consider myself a saved person.
Thanks Roger for the interesting and loving input.
I would be curious to see what you think about what the priest said, maybe you have something to add, something to correct (not to his exterior appearance, though; I like to think that a man that has a beautiful age like you do, knows better than that). Also, we do not have God's angle to judge the priest's heart and establish that he knows nothing about love.
So, was the priest right? Is that the protestant view of salvation? Of course, I imagine that the protestant doctrine of salvation is more complex than that, but even the priest admitted that he reduced the two views to what he believed to be the essence.
I would be curious to see what you think about what the priest said, maybe you have something to add, something to correct (not to his exterior appearance, though; I like to think that a man that has a beautiful age like you do, knows better than that). Also, we do not have God's angle to judge the priest's heart and establish that he knows nothing about love.
So, was the priest right? Is that the protestant view of salvation? Of course, I imagine that the protestant doctrine of salvation is more complex than that, but even the priest admitted that he reduced the two views to what he believed to be the essence.
Last edited:
This is a reply to both of you, to JGIG to point something out to him about that verse (which he may understand or is about to have a revelation) and to you, in answer to "works." Its a lot to read, but its beneficial to understand. I was going to make a long reply and explain works, but this link I'm about to provide covers that. Also, to JGIG, James wasn't making that claim, he was speaking on behalf of someone against what he was saying, and presenting a question and point they would make. He then follows with his rebuttal of such a point. You'll find this our in the article.
BOTH OF YOU, check out the Link: James 2:14-26 - Faith Without Works is Dead? | Till He Comes
And this, just to show you. James isnt making the statement, hes "quoting" someone as if they did, and then making a rebuttal.
James 2:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 Yea, a man may say, "Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
See now, I added the red quotation marks, in bold, to show you where it starts and ends. The article will explain why, but it has to do with a quote starting with "a man may say" and then ending usually with an insult of sorts (that cuts off the quote).
The whole "works" James is speaking about, has nothing to do with Salvation, but with rewards when we are judged. As far as "faith without works is dead", the dead means "useless" not non-existent. Such as, a body without a spirit is dead, it is useless. So faith without works is useless, in what matter? When we are judged for rewards, faith will have no merit upon what you will be rewarded with, but what works you did will determine your rewards. See, faith is useless because that isnt what is being judged, its what you did that will determine what you will receive, as a reward.
So works are not neccessary for salvation, but will determine the reward you will get when judged. You have eternal life, but how that eternal life is experienced or the privileges you have, they will affect.
BOTH OF YOU, check out the Link: James 2:14-26 - Faith Without Works is Dead? | Till He Comes
And this, just to show you. James isnt making the statement, hes "quoting" someone as if they did, and then making a rebuttal.
James 2:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 Yea, a man may say, "Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
See now, I added the red quotation marks, in bold, to show you where it starts and ends. The article will explain why, but it has to do with a quote starting with "a man may say" and then ending usually with an insult of sorts (that cuts off the quote).
The whole "works" James is speaking about, has nothing to do with Salvation, but with rewards when we are judged. As far as "faith without works is dead", the dead means "useless" not non-existent. Such as, a body without a spirit is dead, it is useless. So faith without works is useless, in what matter? When we are judged for rewards, faith will have no merit upon what you will be rewarded with, but what works you did will determine your rewards. See, faith is useless because that isnt what is being judged, its what you did that will determine what you will receive, as a reward.
So works are not neccessary for salvation, but will determine the reward you will get when judged. You have eternal life, but how that eternal life is experienced or the privileges you have, they will affect.
Last edited:
E
No, It is true that man has absolutely no capacity to save himself. All he can hand God is what scripture calls bloody rags. he has NOTHING TO OFFER.
so he must chose to trust Christ, and recieve his offer of salvation. or reject it. That is ALL man can do.. No co-operation whatever, that would give man reason to boast. it is ALL God. or nothing.
You can listen to your church all you want. But they DO teach works. if they did not. they would tell you to trust God. and recieve his gift. and you would be saved forever. now that your saved, lets all do the work God created us to do OUT of our salvation. They do not tell you this.
For salvation no it does not
for working out the salvation god has given you. yes your right.
you do not study the OT do you.
They saw it as a judicial trial. You sin your guilty.
Redemption was paid by the innocent lamb slaughtered for the sins of the people. Nothing else would suffice.
God says I HAVE IT.
if I do not (as your church says) God lied. plain and simple. no getting around that truth
Those are two different things.
sanctification comes from being saved. and is an ongoing process. the problem with the legalistic churches such as your own, is they make them one thing. an ongoing process.. this is not what the bible teaches.
I am in communion with God. He justified me freely by his son's death.
i do not have to do a bunch of religeous maneuvering to get God to accept me, (the jews thought this and failed) he accepted me as i am..
so he must chose to trust Christ, and recieve his offer of salvation. or reject it. That is ALL man can do.. No co-operation whatever, that would give man reason to boast. it is ALL God. or nothing.
You can listen to your church all you want. But they DO teach works. if they did not. they would tell you to trust God. and recieve his gift. and you would be saved forever. now that your saved, lets all do the work God created us to do OUT of our salvation. They do not tell you this.
For salvation no it does not
for working out the salvation god has given you. yes your right.
you do not study the OT do you.
They saw it as a judicial trial. You sin your guilty.
Redemption was paid by the innocent lamb slaughtered for the sins of the people. Nothing else would suffice.
God says I HAVE IT.
if I do not (as your church says) God lied. plain and simple. no getting around that truth
Those are two different things.
sanctification comes from being saved. and is an ongoing process. the problem with the legalistic churches such as your own, is they make them one thing. an ongoing process.. this is not what the bible teaches.
I am in communion with God. He justified me freely by his son's death.
i do not have to do a bunch of religeous maneuvering to get God to accept me, (the jews thought this and failed) he accepted me as i am..
I'll give you that one.
There is something in my personality that saves me the frustration of listening to anybody that is so equivocal. I cannot trust a man like that who is pretending to know God. I do not have any interest in what he believes. James said that the double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
There is only biblical and non-biblical. God does not honor mans ideas. God honors His word and has established it to endure for all of eternity.
It is very difficult for me to love apostates which includes Fred Phelps a protestant. I would rejoice at news of your priest getting saved according to the bible.
I hear King Agrippa's words to Paul almost thou persuadest me.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
There is only biblical and non-biblical. God does not honor mans ideas. God honors His word and has established it to endure for all of eternity.
It is very difficult for me to love apostates which includes Fred Phelps a protestant. I would rejoice at news of your priest getting saved according to the bible.
I hear King Agrippa's words to Paul almost thou persuadest me.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
N
As has been said before, faith is SO much more than mere belief. It is my faith that gives me the strength to trust Jesus when things don't go my way, when troubles come. Faith that God's will is far more important than my own and that He knows what's best for me. Faith that His plan is the best possible plan for me and for the world.
Ephesians 2:8 & 9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
If salvation comes by way of good works, then we can indeed boast! I'm going to heaven because I did...I'm going to heaven because I didn't...I'm better than you because I did this and I'm going to heaven. This takes all the glory away from God and gives it to man. All the glory belongs to GOD, that is why grace and forgiveness and salvation are a gift from God.
But, yes, we are still to do good works. But for an entirely different reason. BECAUSE we love Jesus. Just like we do nice things for the people we love BECAUSE we love them not to make sure they love us.
Ephesians 2:4 (going back a few verses...)
But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions - it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:8 & 9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
If salvation comes by way of good works, then we can indeed boast! I'm going to heaven because I did...I'm going to heaven because I didn't...I'm better than you because I did this and I'm going to heaven. This takes all the glory away from God and gives it to man. All the glory belongs to GOD, that is why grace and forgiveness and salvation are a gift from God.
But, yes, we are still to do good works. But for an entirely different reason. BECAUSE we love Jesus. Just like we do nice things for the people we love BECAUSE we love them not to make sure they love us.
Ephesians 2:4 (going back a few verses...)
But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions - it is by grace you have been saved.
It is hilarious that your first set of scriptures warns against those who would teach a gospel of a (different kind) which has no power to save and is double cursed by Paul....The gospel of a (different kind) that he refers to is.....
1. SAVED BY FAITH, BUT KEPT BY WORKS......DUDE you are hilarious! For REAL!
So my first point is the warning I have to people. Read Galatians 1:6-9.
1. SAVED BY FAITH, BUT KEPT BY WORKS......DUDE you are hilarious! For REAL!
So my first point is the warning I have to people. Read Galatians 1:6-9.
Not save by grace alone?
I know only about 3 men, who would eventually fulfill the condition.
Noah, Daniel, Job
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.
Ezechiel 14,14
But just those three..as the God spoke further in verse 20
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
So Bible tells us just about these 3 men..
So, ok, with close eyes I can say, that DavidlovesSnow was right, but only partially …
be blessed
I know only about 3 men, who would eventually fulfill the condition.
Noah, Daniel, Job
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.
Ezechiel 14,14
But just those three..as the God spoke further in verse 20
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
So Bible tells us just about these 3 men..
So, ok, with close eyes I can say, that DavidlovesSnow was right, but only partially …
be blessed
Yes, he has. He offers himself to God.
The fact that man can refuse God's offer means that salvation depends not only on God, but also on how man responds to God's offer. Salvation is a synergical work. Will God save a man that doesn't want to be saved? Didn't Jesus Christ asked "Do you want to be healed"?
Yes. They do say that faith and works shouldn't be separated. We need two wings in order to fly: faith and works. A teaching that is in perfect harmony with the Bible.
We sin because we are dead. Because we do not have life in ourselves. Jesus Christ died and resurrected so that you and I can live. God is love (not an offended judge), He wants us to be in communion with Him. God's incarnation, crucification and resurrection helps both our salvation and sanctification.
Look who talks about legalistic: the one that sees and talks about salvation in a legalistic way. Interesting.
Nobody needs religious maneuvring. God's love falls upon every human being.
Yes. They do say that faith and works shouldn't be separated. We need two wings in order to fly: faith and works. A teaching that is in perfect harmony with the Bible.
We sin because we are dead. Because we do not have life in ourselves. Jesus Christ died and resurrected so that you and I can live. God is love (not an offended judge), He wants us to be in communion with Him. God's incarnation, crucification and resurrection helps both our salvation and sanctification.
Look who talks about legalistic: the one that sees and talks about salvation in a legalistic way. Interesting.
Nobody needs religious maneuvring. God's love falls upon every human being.
E
If God did not do all the work. and finish the redemptive plan. He could not do this. So it is STILL Gods work.
John 6, It is the work of God that we believe in the one he sent. This is all we need to know. Even our faith is a work of God and not from us, Because we can still do nothing.
[quote
Yes. They do say that faith and works shouldn't be separated. We need two wings in order to fly: faith and works. A teaching that is in perfect harmony with the Bible. [/quote]
In harmony only if taken in proper context.
Faith first. Which brings salvation. And works follow both.
We sin because we are still selfish.
As paul said,
Rom 8 : 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness
A born again child of God may still sin, because of his dead body. But his spirit is always alive, Because of what Christ did.
Yes. But if we are not saved, there will never be sanctification.
Salvation comes first and is eternal. Sanctification occurs after, is conditional, and is in varying degrees for the rest of our Christian life.
So saying God died for me, And he justified me freely by his death is legalistic.
Wow.
Legalism says we have to do a list of rules and regulation, Sacraments, or other things (works) to be saved.
Yep. But not everyone will be saved, POnly those who believe in the name of the only begotten of God. and trust in him.
Those who try to earn it through a sacramental system of works do not believe in his name, They are trusting their works. Even if they deny they are doing this.
Yes. Salvation is by grace alone.
The healing of sin and death can not occur through human efforts. Any individual effort to change our nature is destined to failure. All our good works are not able to save us. A man may be morally perfect, can abstain from any sin, but if he is separated from God, he remains lost. Only the initiative and intervention of God can change man and place him back on the path that leads to the union with God. However, this requires human cooperation: and a simple declaration of faith (sola fide) is not enough; man has to continuously let the Holy Spirit transform himself.
It is clear that whithout God's grace nobody is saved. The dispute is whether faith alone is enough from man's side or is faith and works? The problem is the way some people here understand works; some of them are even disgusted by the thought of works because they think that good works try to buy a ticket in heaven or they make us merituous in front of God. False! This idea that good works make us merituous contain a legalistic meaning of salvation (just like the doctrine sola fide does) and I do not share this kind of ideas. Good works are important not because they make us merituous, but because they have the power to transform us.
The healing of sin and death can not occur through human efforts. Any individual effort to change our nature is destined to failure. All our good works are not able to save us. A man may be morally perfect, can abstain from any sin, but if he is separated from God, he remains lost. Only the initiative and intervention of God can change man and place him back on the path that leads to the union with God. However, this requires human cooperation: and a simple declaration of faith (sola fide) is not enough; man has to continuously let the Holy Spirit transform himself.
It is clear that whithout God's grace nobody is saved. The dispute is whether faith alone is enough from man's side or is faith and works? The problem is the way some people here understand works; some of them are even disgusted by the thought of works because they think that good works try to buy a ticket in heaven or they make us merituous in front of God. False! This idea that good works make us merituous contain a legalistic meaning of salvation (just like the doctrine sola fide does) and I do not share this kind of ideas. Good works are important not because they make us merituous, but because they have the power to transform us.
I agree with you Simona25
we have access to this grace through faith.The thief on the cross did not do physical works to receive salvation.
Somebody might say.....James said that faith without works is dead:
but IMO james was talking about faith produces work that will be seen by men.
GOD looks at the heart,so then GOD would only need to look at the theif on the cross faith alone.
The bible says that the word is a discerner of thoughts and intentions of the heart in hebrews 4:12
we have access to this grace through faith.The thief on the cross did not do physical works to receive salvation.
Somebody might say.....James said that faith without works is dead:
but IMO james was talking about faith produces work that will be seen by men.
GOD looks at the heart,so then GOD would only need to look at the theif on the cross faith alone.
The bible says that the word is a discerner of thoughts and intentions of the heart in hebrews 4:12
What is faith? Why separate faith from works? It makes no sense.
Sin comes only from the body? I thought Jesus Christ said sin comes out of our hearts. I also thought that salvation is both for the body and the soul (we will resurrect in this body). We sin because we are not completely healed. Salvation and sanctification are in a ongoing process.
They both go together. We must continuously repent (salvation) and continously try to walk in the truth (sanctification). The word "justification" betrays your legalistic way of seeing God's love. You fail to see that God's love is not an exterior, judicial act by which God declares you justified. In your conception, salvation does not touch the human nature.
Saint Paul used the word justification several times because he was in a controversy with the jews that saw (just like you) salvation in juridical terms, based on the works of law. St. Paul responds that our justification is acquired not by works of the law but through faith in Christ. Like them, Paul talks about justification, but he twists/reverse their argument.
But for St.Paul justification is not an outward act of God, but a dynamic reality that is received by faith involving human participation. Justification is a process that develops in man through the Holy Spirit who unites us with Christ, and through the full cooperation of man.
In Romans 1,5 we read: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name
Obedience to the faith implies more than just an adherence to a faith (doctrine), it implies personal effort.
Romans 6,12:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Again, another verse that implies obedience through personal effort and not just faith alone.
Romans 8,17: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
If we are to suffer with Christ, the simple, mental agreement that Christ died for my sins won't do it.
1 Corinthians 1,30: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1 Corinthians 6,11: 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
In the verses above, there is no esential separation between salvation and sanctification.
Philippians 2,12: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Aha! So, salvation is a process, not something that you receive once you signed a contract.
No. Legalism says that we must receive a stamp on our passport to heaven and this stamp we do not receive it, unless we make an oficial declaration of faith. Which is why, in your church, children are not baptised (because they did not reach the age of responsability, or accountability - another word that points to a legalistic view).
We know from our side, what we have to do to be in communion with God. However, there are people in this world, that never heard of Jesus Christ, but still, they live a christian life. This people are the ones that God talks about in Matthew 25. You believe that only christians are capable of sacrificial love? I don't. I know people that are not even christians and their love and beauty humble me.
They do not try to earn nothing. They only seek communion with God. In fact, someone even said that the excessive preoccupation with being saved from hell is a sin.
Sin comes only from the body? I thought Jesus Christ said sin comes out of our hearts. I also thought that salvation is both for the body and the soul (we will resurrect in this body). We sin because we are not completely healed. Salvation and sanctification are in a ongoing process.
They both go together. We must continuously repent (salvation) and continously try to walk in the truth (sanctification). The word "justification" betrays your legalistic way of seeing God's love. You fail to see that God's love is not an exterior, judicial act by which God declares you justified. In your conception, salvation does not touch the human nature.
Saint Paul used the word justification several times because he was in a controversy with the jews that saw (just like you) salvation in juridical terms, based on the works of law. St. Paul responds that our justification is acquired not by works of the law but through faith in Christ. Like them, Paul talks about justification, but he twists/reverse their argument.
But for St.Paul justification is not an outward act of God, but a dynamic reality that is received by faith involving human participation. Justification is a process that develops in man through the Holy Spirit who unites us with Christ, and through the full cooperation of man.
In Romans 1,5 we read: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name
Obedience to the faith implies more than just an adherence to a faith (doctrine), it implies personal effort.
Romans 6,12:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Again, another verse that implies obedience through personal effort and not just faith alone.
Romans 8,17: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
If we are to suffer with Christ, the simple, mental agreement that Christ died for my sins won't do it.
1 Corinthians 1,30: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1 Corinthians 6,11: 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
In the verses above, there is no esential separation between salvation and sanctification.
Philippians 2,12: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Aha! So, salvation is a process, not something that you receive once you signed a contract.
No. Legalism says that we must receive a stamp on our passport to heaven and this stamp we do not receive it, unless we make an oficial declaration of faith. Which is why, in your church, children are not baptised (because they did not reach the age of responsability, or accountability - another word that points to a legalistic view).
We know from our side, what we have to do to be in communion with God. However, there are people in this world, that never heard of Jesus Christ, but still, they live a christian life. This people are the ones that God talks about in Matthew 25. You believe that only christians are capable of sacrificial love? I don't. I know people that are not even christians and their love and beauty humble me.
They do not try to earn nothing. They only seek communion with God. In fact, someone even said that the excessive preoccupation with being saved from hell is a sin.
Seed_time_harvest,
Thank you. But, I do not support the idea of faith alone, unless this faith means (like you pointed out) more than just a mental agreement.
I retain from your post a very interesting and beautiful exprimation: you say "we access grace through faith". How about the good samaritan? He also accessed grace, through his love and his interiorized convinction that it is normal and human to help someone in need.
So, James says that our acts shows who we are, what we believe in. What good if I formally partain to a christian church, but a non-christian chinese knows more about love than I do? What good than?
My opinion is that our faith must be interiorized and assumed and everything that we do should be in coherence with what we believe.
The thief on the cross has been cited few times on this thread to inforce the doctrine of faith alone. And I do not disagree: the thief believed in God and he was the first man to go in heaven. But he did do something good (not a physical work), he tried to confort Jesus Christ with a good word. That's all that the thief could do and he did it.
Thank you. But, I do not support the idea of faith alone, unless this faith means (like you pointed out) more than just a mental agreement.
I retain from your post a very interesting and beautiful exprimation: you say "we access grace through faith". How about the good samaritan? He also accessed grace, through his love and his interiorized convinction that it is normal and human to help someone in need.
So, James says that our acts shows who we are, what we believe in. What good if I formally partain to a christian church, but a non-christian chinese knows more about love than I do? What good than?
My opinion is that our faith must be interiorized and assumed and everything that we do should be in coherence with what we believe.
The thief on the cross has been cited few times on this thread to inforce the doctrine of faith alone. And I do not disagree: the thief believed in God and he was the first man to go in heaven. But he did do something good (not a physical work), he tried to confort Jesus Christ with a good word. That's all that the thief could do and he did it.