We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ.

[Blain]

It's like hitting your thumb with a hammer when you missed the nail. Sometimes, the pain is not immediate.
But you look at your thumb and your mind relays this is going to hurt. Then boom, your thumb begins to hurt. This was your mind thinking and understanding that in the past when this happened it hurt. So, it sends out the relay that this going to hurt. And guess what, it does indeed hurt! That is not Emotions, but pain. When we suffer however, that is pain through the emotion. This is the spirit working. So we can have pain in 2 ways. One from the mind and the other from the emotions of our spirit.

You see I love how you and I think alike I mean honestly

 

[Peterlag]

Is that what you see in church and on this site?

A very smart person on this site put it this way...

I thought it would be wise to mention Romans seven that seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion. There's really only one honest way to read Romans seven that deals with Paul talking about himself in the present tense when he wrote it. He writes it after he spends a chapter informing us about fifteen times that by joining with Christ we have died to sin through the spirit. He goes on to say his flesh still struggles, but that it's not him anymore because he's no longer living after the flesh. The reason there's no condemnation for us in Christ is because it's the flesh that has the sin, but the spirit does not, and it's the spirit that is our new man.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. There's no battle. I very smart person on this site put it this way...

I thought it would be wise to mention Romans seven that seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion. There's really only one honest way to read Romans seven that deals with Paul talking about himself in the present tense when he wrote it. He writes it after he spends a chapter informing us about fifteen times that by joining with Christ we have died to sin through the spirit. He goes on to say his flesh still struggles, but that it's not him anymore because he's no longer living after the flesh. The reason there's no condemnation for us in Christ is because it's the flesh that has the sin, but the spirit does not, and it's the spirit that is our new man.

I wish you had of said Some Christians of today feel that way, but hopefully every born again Christian knows that GOD himself justified us and we have to believe we have been made righteous by GOD and that GOD IS a SPIRIT and those who worship Must worship HIM In Spirit and In truth.

Good post though.

 

[Peterlag]

So what do you do with those who commit sin? How do you deal with this considering the promises of God and what you see in your life and the lives of others? I am not doubting the Word of God but asking an obvious question.

A very smart person on this site put it this way...

I thought it would be wise to mention Romans seven that seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion. There's really only one honest way to read Romans seven that deals with Paul talking about himself in the present tense when he wrote it. He writes it after he spends a chapter informing us about fifteen times that by joining with Christ we have died to sin through the spirit. He goes on to say his flesh still struggles, but that it's not him anymore because he's no longer living after the flesh. The reason there's no condemnation for us in Christ is because it's the flesh that has the sin, but the spirit does not, and it's the spirit that is our new man.

 

[Peterlag]

Of course you can add to what you wrote. That is quite welcome. I think a great deal about these matters and because I am not from a theology background but instead studied and work in science, I test theories in real life. I take a theory of any kind and test it in how real life works, in this case, how this new life in Christ works.

There is a member who started a thread by asking about a passage as she has seen born again real Christians do a number of wrong sinful things to others. This seemed not to be correct and so she wondered about a passage, that is not important in this discussion. But what is important is that when we look at the church and our own lives especially after a time when the newness has worn off, we see that the sin that we supposedly put off is still there. We see other Christia§ns engaging in sin without seeming to be sad about it. I worked in a Christian organization for 5 years and saw those dedicated christians commit every sin except murder. Not all and not many at all. But adultery? One man fairly openly relatively speaking. Stealing? Very much so so that higher security measures had to be taken to prevent the christians from stealing the money from others. The list goes on. I was not affected by this much except to see that the theology that promises new hearts did not seem to match real life in many.

These did not seem to receive what the theology promised. They understood completely what you say. There was no problem in lack of understanding nor receiving. The problem lay in what James described as they simply desired the pleasure sin offered and could not wait until it was to be enjoyed righteously.

What I think matches real life is that a change has taken place both in the cleansing the heart of sin and the investment of the Holy SPirit within to teach us and convict us of sin. We have not yet received what God has to give until certain points are reached. These are reached by us confessing and repenting of sin, renewing the mind, and drawing near to God asking for help against the temptations of sin among other measures. It is not done for us while we sleep painless to the desires. We are required to struggle against our own desires and obey instead the living God. When we do that, grace is released to overcome sin, bit by bit. All the while being held and helped by Him.

We have an impartation of the Holy Spirit in some measure at the beginning. That is a new ability to obey God if we avail ourselves of that in the heat of the choice. That grows or decreases depending ujpon our choices in matters of obedience and holiness. This is an understanding that matches real life and the scriptures.

Scripture speaks both of having and struggling to have that which is not yet given. IT speaks of us choosing to do good and Him being in us to will and to do right. This tension is there. We work out our own salvation already having been saved. Right now the emphasis is more on the receiving than on doing anything in obedience to God. As a result there is great unholiness in the church as we neglect our part assuming He will do it all for us.

Sorry this is long. I can show you the scriptures for this if you want but it would have made it longer. If you are not interested than I saved us both time.

His blessing on you
Dottie

A very smart person on this site put it this way...

I thought it would be wise to mention Romans seven that seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion. There's really only one honest way to read Romans seven that deals with Paul talking about himself in the present tense when he wrote it. He writes it after he spends a chapter informing us about fifteen times that by joining with Christ we have died to sin through the spirit. He goes on to say his flesh still struggles, but that it's not him anymore because he's no longer living after the flesh. The reason there's no condemnation for us in Christ is because it's the flesh that has the sin, but the spirit does not, and it's the spirit that is our new man.

 

[biker]

You see I love how you and I think alike I mean honestly

It's good to find like minded Believers in God and in life. This is how we edify one another. How we encourage one another. How God works through both of us to help one another

 

[Peterlag]

I wish you had of said Some Christians of today feel that way, but hopefully every born again Christian knows that GOD himself justified us and we have to believe we have been made righteous by GOD and that GOD IS a SPIRIT and those who worship Must worship HIM In Spirit and In truth.

Good post though.

I never heard of a Christian who believes they have a new nature in the spirit of Christ. Not one.

 

[Peterlag]

I think believing we are alive in sin is not correct. Most believe and say and teach we are alive in Christ, however not all live in Christ. There is a difference with being alive in Christ and living in him. When we are born again we are then alive in him reborn but not all choose to walk the daily life of a believer some even fall away into their old lives like a dog returning to his vomit I even knew a person who was born again but he ended up thinking he could do as he pleased because of grace, it took him several years to get the message you cannot simply do as you please and take advantage of his grace..

You are either in Christ or you're not. Either you're walking in the spirit or you're not. But if you're in the spirit. Then there is no sin because the spirit of Christ does not sin.

 

[Blain]

You are either in Christ or you're not. Either you're walking in the spirit or you're not. But if you're in the spirit. Then there is no sin because the spirit of Christ does not sin.

Then can you honestly tell me in fully truth that you do not sin?

 

[Peterlag]

But that does not mean in his struggle to control the flesh, he does not sin. It just means, if and when he sins, he is not condemned because he is saved by Christ. But that does not mean he would not say to God, after sinning, forgive me. Only a non intelligent person would refuse to acknowledge their sin and ask to be forgiven.

There is no sin in Christ. None.

 

[posthuman]

I most definitely did not indicate this.

well you specifically told me a 'true believer' has no business in Romans 7, and when i mentioned that earlier this week someone told me a 'true believer' has equally no business in Romans 6, you said that was good advice.

so it appeared to me you were in agreement about skipping straight to 8 without letting 6 or 7 inform it.
that sounds like 'might as well delete' to me.

Your understanding and conclusion of Romans 6, 7, and 8 is flawed and in error.

I would write down why, but the scripture is so clear that it would be better for you to just read Romans without a bias.

i'm pretty sure that the view which says Christians have 'no business' in Romans 6 & 7 is the biased one, and i don't think i have anything to learn from someone who says those chapters have nothing to say to me. i have a hard time believing you actually find them clear if you believe you have no business in them.

 

[posthuman]

He does not say the Christian. He's not talking to the Christian. Here's another example. Romans 10:9-10 is not talking to the Christian either.

he write all this in 1st person present tense. he's talking about himself.

the opening paragraph of the chapter continues what he has been saying about the truth of every believer, that the body is dead but the spirit is life.

it's really awkward to try to force the things that follow in chapter 7 to be hypothetical pre-belief person-without-God business. it does not fit the narrative at all, and it contradicts the grammar.

in first person present tense he says, 'with his mind he serves God' -- is this talking about unbelievers? really?
there is a very clear, very straightforward thing being said. it is IMO the bias introduced by people whose doctrines have no room for the truth of this that tries to interpret it contrary to what it plainly says. many things in scripture are hard sayings, difficult to accept - and many things are mysteries, difficult to comprehend. the struggle of the flesh vs. the spirit in the life of a person who serves God in spirit but stumbles in the body is not a difficult thing to interpret, but it may be hard to acknowledge, and to accept.
it flows very naturally from ch. 1-5 and segues perfectly to ch. 8

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Everyone in those days were well aware of all of the beliefs. Jews were aware the Romans and Greeks had their deities, like many other nations.

I do not believe "everyone in those days were well aware of all of the beliefs".

Read Acts 15. The Jews who held to the law were going into the gentile regions (after Paul taught the gentiles about Christ) and they were telling the gentiles that, in addition to faith in the gospel, they had to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses, and then they taught them the law (Acts 15:5).

So, even though Paul is speaking to Romans (Gentiles), how are you for certain Paul is not using "Shall we continue in sin based upon the Jewish Law.

In other words, Paul could be explaining that even Gentiles are not held unto the Law like those Gentiles who converted to the Jewish beliefs. How are we certain since now that the Law has been abolished, that Gentiles sins cannot be committed?

Follow the text and you will see that Paul is not emphasizing a lifestyle of continuing in sin based upon the Jewish Law.

At the end of Romans 5, Paul gives instruction that where sin abounded, grace did much more abound (Rom 5:20).

Paul then goes on with the thought that "well, if God’s grace abounds much more where sin abounds, then why don't we just sin up a storm which will allow God's grace to abound even more?"

And the answer to that is an emphatic God forbid!!! How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein.

Then Paul goes on to explain that we are dead to sin, that we are no longer in bondage to sin, that we are free from sin and are now servants of righteousness, we have fruit unto righteousness unto holiness and everlasting life.

You are basically promoting a license to sin here with Paul's example.

Nope. Not at all.

Did you not read what I submitted concerning grace being a very powerful instructor in Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:12)?

that is definitely not “promoting a license to sin”.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I don't reprogram my flesh. Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

In your Post #68, you stated:

"And so our sin nature is dead and gone, but it left behind a body that has a carnal mind, and therefore it will still function as programmed until we reprogram it. It's what the New Testament calls the "renewed mind" when our lives are transformed by the process of reprogramming our thoughts.”​

I asked you in Post #120 "How do you "reprogram" that "carnal mind" that "still function as programmed?”

In other words, I am asking you how do you renew your mind (you personally … how do you renew your mind).

I know what I do … I’m interested in what it is that you do.

And please do not direct me to your link. I will not open a link to another site.

Just explain in your own words (and with Scripture if you'd like) how you renew your mind. Thanks.

 

[Relic]

We become a new creation in Christ at the time we are born again.





The "will to sin" does not stop in this lifetime. The "will to sin" becomes less and less effective as we learn to overcome (not take the bait).

Christ in me happened at the time I was born again.

What Paul has written goes far beyond baptism. Baptism is an initiation to Christianity.
When you say

 

[Runningman]

Paul takes care of the "license to sin" issue in the first 2 verses of Rom 6 ... Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid — very emphatic NO!!!


Love is a very powerful motivator in overcoming the lusts of the flesh. Our love of the Father and our complete and utter joy in our fellowship with Him becomes the strong deterrent in not taking the bait when the lusts of the flesh are stirred up (i.e. as we endure temptation). It's not a sin to be tempted. Our Lord Jesus Christ was tempted and He overcame and He is our example. He lives within us to help us in our time of need. The temptation is not sin ... the sin occurs when lust conceives (James 1:15) and we act on our lusts.


And what some people don't understand is that grace is a very powerful instructor:

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


Whoever came up with the idea that "grace is a license to sin" (not naming any names here but his initials are the devil, satan, the adversary), sure did toss some folks around on a wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

Grace is now considered by some as something never intended by God.

It is because salvation is entirely a product of God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) not a product of how good or bad we are. Christians will sin according to the sinful nature of the flesh, but they won't really want to because they are born again by the Spirit and therefore aren't condemned as Paul expounds upon in Romans 7.

As you said, Paul debunks the "license to sin" doctrine in Romans. Worldly people in love with sin still will look for an excuse to sin just like they were in Paul's day. Christians don't want to be worldy and may succumb to temptations, but no longer have a mind that seeks after sin, but rather how to please God.

That we are able to even resist sinning at all for any period of time is a direct result of the influence of the Holy Spirit. Through life we will continue being sanctified, changing from one degree of glory to the next, and we will eventually cross major milestones by the grace of God and be holier.

This is why older, more mature Christians, are generally better resisting temptation than new Christians who spent their entire life following a corrupt world. It usually takes time to undo the decades of accumulated mistakes and learned mindset of sin, though sometimes a person is drastically changed quickly after being graced by the Holy Spirit.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What Paul has written goes far beyond baptism. Baptism is an initiation to Christianity.
When you say

I was responding to your comment that:

From Post #122:​

​

You need to give up your will and accept God's will ​

You will then become a new creation and your will​

to sin stops. then you will be a new creation and​

God will be in you and you in God.​

My giving up "my will" and accepting "God's will" does not cause the "new creation" within.

The "new creation" is what God places within the believer when we are born again ...

God seals us with that Holy Spirit of promise and we are then able to "give up [our] will" and "accept God's will".

 

[Relic]

In your Post #68, you stated:

"And so our sin nature is dead and gone, but it left behind a body that has a carnal mind, and therefore it will still function as programmed until we reprogram it. It's what the New Testament calls the "renewed mind" when our lives are transformed by the process of reprogramming our thoughts.”​

I asked you in Post #120 "How do you "reprogram" that "carnal mind" that "still function as programmed?”

In other words, I am asking you how do you renew your mind (you personally … how do you renew your mind).

I know what I do … I’m interested in what it is that you do.

And please do not direct me to your link. I will not open a link to another site.

Just explain in your own words (and with Scripture if you'd like) how you renew your mind. Thanks.

1And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ.

What Paul has written goes far beyond baptism.
Baptism is an initiation to to our Christian faith.
It is the beginning but the what Paul writes is living in the Spirit.
The realm of the Holy Spirit goes far beyond the flesh and in that
you are totally wrong because scripture says sin diminishes far
beyond the flesh. You people write as the Pharisees did. They
did not understand a single thing Jesus said. They were there
to pick and to argue every single word. Because they got so
irate they had to kill him. There is no point in my discussing with you.

You are totally ignorant of power of the holy Spirit Paul alluded to.
As long as all you know are words you will be woefully void of the
Spirit. You would rather argue words than to turn your soul to God.
If Jesus was here, he would blast you far more than I did. So please
just live in your ignorant bliss and leave me alone. My destination
to God's mansion is secure, I have no fear so stop trying to lower
me to your level.

 

[tourist]

A very smart person on this site put it this way...

I thought it would be wise to mention Romans seven that seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion. There's really only one honest way to read Romans seven that deals with Paul talking about himself in the present tense when he wrote it. He writes it after he spends a chapter informing us about fifteen times that by joining with Christ we have died to sin through the spirit. He goes on to say his flesh still struggles, but that it's not him anymore because he's no longer living after the flesh. The reason there's no condemnation for us in Christ is because it's the flesh that has the sin, but the spirit does not, and it's the spirit that is our new man.

How do you know that Romans 7 seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion? I don't find it to be confusing at all.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is because salvation is entirely a product of God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) not a product of how good or bad we are. Christians will sin according to the sinful nature of the flesh, but they won't really want to because they are born again by the Spirit and therefore aren't condemned as Paul expounds upon in Romans 7.

As you said, Paul debunks the "license to sin" doctrine in Romans. Worldly people in love with sin still will look for an excuse to sin just like they were in Paul's day. Christians don't want to be worldy and may succumb to temptations, but no longer have a mind that seeks after sin, but rather how to please God.

That we are able to even resist sinning at all for any period of time is a direct result of the influence of the Holy Spirit. Through life we will continue being sanctified, changing from one degree of glory to the next, and we will eventually cross major milestones by the grace of God and be holier.

This is why older, more mature Christians, are generally better resisting temptation than new Christians who spent their entire life following a corrupt world. It usually takes time to undo the decades of accumulated mistakes and learned mindset of sin, though sometimes a person is drastically changed quickly after being graced by the Holy Spirit.

in agreement ...

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.