What if repentance is not about feeling guilty, regretful or ashamed? How do you define repentance?
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Repent means a 'change of mind, heart'
At getting eternally saved, this is, led by God, a change of mind about who Jesus is. Not a change of behaviours.
God repented of what He did with Israel.
John’s Gospel absolutely records Jesus’ words to the disciples, but the written book is not aimed at a secret apostolic tier; John himself says the opposite.
John 20:31 states the purpose of the book: “these are written that you may believe,” meaning future readers who will never meet Jesus physically.
John 17:20 shows Jesus praying not only for the disciples but “for those who will believe through their word,” which means the apostolic experience becomes the pipeline for all later believers, not a unique Spirit‑walk unavailable to the church.
The disciples did have a foundational role (Eph 2:20), but the Spirit‑walk pattern Jesus describes in John 14–16 is explicitly universal: the Spirit abides “forever,” not for one generation; the Comforter teaches “all things,” not only apostles; and Acts 2:39 extends the Spirit‑gift to “all who are afar off.” The world‑system behind the “unique walk” claim is elitist‑revelation mysticism, trying to turn normal Christian life into a first‑century privilege, but Scripture makes the abiding, Spirit‑led walk the defining mark of every son of God (Rom 8:9,14).
John 17:20
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those
who will believe in me through their message.
That is a given and not what I was getting at.What Jesus told them about their personal spiritual experience was about what we need for knowing our history.
Do we need to know how to load muskets today when studying colonial American history?
It seems possibly you're concerned with the potential hyper-spiritual kooks out there.
I was dealing with presenting some historical facts for their moment in time.
Fact. We are not to walk as apostles did in the pre-canon days, not having the full canon of NT Scripture.
Jesus was giving them foundational information as to what they were to expect.
What Jesus told them was to happen to an apostle does not directly apply to our experience.
The hyper-spiritual kooks do not make that differentiation.
We must share some common aspects with the apostles as Christians as we walk in our own spiritual lives according to what is now available and known in the written word. The written word, they did not have when they began their spiritual journey and quest.
That was all I intended to say.
Except for personal instructions, such as, " When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, Women behold your son!. Then He said to the disciple, Behold your mother! And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home." John 19:26-27 and " When you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." John 21:18-19 (indicating what kind of death Peter would suffer) what else did Jesus instruct His disciples that doesn't apply to modern day disciples?
wattie,
The theory that repentance is just a form of mental understanding with no impact on life is the saddest definition I here from time to time. The sad companion theory is the "repentance" is only "deciding" to change your mind about Jesus. That net effect of that theory is we are free to live however the heck we please because at some time in the past we changed or mind about who Jesus was. Thus, Christianity is entirely theoretical mental/emotional experience where you came to believe a 60 second pulpit prayer made you right with God for eternity....guaranteed. IMHO, the most fundamental error in this framework is that it requires you to reinterpret the entire Hebrew Bible and the rest of the New Testament.
Let's start with your example of "God repented of what He did with Israel. In no case did God "repent" of what He did to Isael.
Exodus 32:14: After the Israelites worshipped the golden calf, God told Moses He would destroy them. Because Moses interceded and prayed for the people, "the Lord repented [relented] of the evil [calamity] which he thought to do unto his people" Under your theory, the prayers of the people for forgiveness were not sufficient. Only Moses had standing to ask for mercy. This demonstrates God's "repentance" is a change of action not theory.
King Saul (1 Samuel 15:11): God stated that He regretted making Saul king because Saul turned away from following Him and disobeyed His commands. (this opens the door to reimaging how God works in the world where He can regret His own choices)
Amos 7:3, 6: The prophet Amos pleaded with God to forgive Jacob (Israel) from coming locusts and fire, and the text notes that "the Lord repented" and said it would not happen. Again the plees of the nation of Israel where not enough to get God to change His mind, only the individual prayer of a holy man prophet God listen to.
Jeremiah 18:8: God explicitly states that if a nation turns away from its evil, He will "repent [relent] of the evil [disaster] that I thought to do unto them" Thus repentance means turning away from evil.....not just a mental exercise.
The Bible also teaches in places like Numbers 23:19 that God is not human and does not lie or change His ultimate mind. Various theology traditions have arisen to explain that God's eternal character and plans never change, but He uses human language to describe how His unchanging mercy interacts with changing human choices in history. This means that human choices of actions, lives and hearts are in play in the definition of repentance.... not just making a personal change of mind....without physical demonstration.
I though Billy Graham had a pretty good sense of what real repentance is:
"The dictionary defines repent as “feeling sorry or having regret.” But the words Jesus spoke meant a great deal more. The Biblical word repent means “to change or to turn.” It is a word of power and action—signifying a person’s complete turnabout. Jesus calls us to repent, turn away from sin, and walk in the opposite direction from sin and all that it implies.
When the Prodigal Son realized that he had sinned against his father, he got up and left the pig pen of sin and returned to his father. He didn’t just feel sorry for his sin. He wasn’t passive about it. He turned his feet in the other direction and headed home. He sought out his father and humbled himself before him, and then he was forgiven.
Many professing Christians don’t follow what the Bible teaches as repentance, thinking that it is little more than shaking their heads over their sins and saying, “I’m so sorry I did that,” and then continuing to live just as they had lived before. It’s possible to be convicted of sin and even shed tears over sins, and yet not repent.
Not one verse in the Bible indicates a person can be a Christian and live any kind of life he or she wants. When Christ enters into the human heart, He expects to be Lord and Master. He commands complete surrender. He requires that we be subject to Him, and He empowers His people to seek His desires.
You’re treating repentance as if its definition includes the effects that follow it. Scripture never does that.
I'm not saying you can live what ever you like after being converted. The Bible says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you have everlasting/eternal life.
From this point the saved person has the Holy Spirit indwelling their soul. This means they will be spurred on/teached and rebuked to be faithful.
God repenting:
Genesis 6:6 KJV
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And
Exodus 32:14 KJV - 4 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Interesting examples. How is it that the Creator God had no idea of what his created would do? Who put evil in the garden. How is it that certain men (but never women) can get God to change His mind when nobody else on earth can do so? I am interested in your perspective.
I respect your choice of the King James version of the
Tyndale's Bible: Provided the foundational phrasing, rhythm, and style—especially for the New Testament and the sections of the Old Testament that Tyndale translated before his execution.
The Bishops' Bible: Served as the official authorized text of the Church of England that the translators were formally mandated to revise.
The Geneva Bible: A widely popular Protestant translation with detailed marginal notes that heavily influenced the scholars' actual wording choices, even though King James disliked its politically subversive commentary and had it removed or reworded
The only differences was that King James required the translators to remove notes and explanations and anything that detracted from the authority of an earthly king.
I prefer the psalms in later revisions of the KHV but even in core scripture I find it like trying to understand the earliest version of Shakespeare, good for poetic form less useful for biblical scholarship.
Having become a child of God is forever and has its consequences for disobedience to not walking in virtue.
They will still be saved. But will suffer from God's discipline and justice.
1 Corinthians 11:29-30
For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ
eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you
are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
God does not take disobedience lightly.
And, if a disobedient believer is stubborn and refuses correction?
They will be in heaven with all of us...
But, with a moment of deep shame before the Lord at his evaluation of the saints.
1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray
and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin
that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.
In some sad situations there comes a point when we are not to pray any longer.
We need to hand it over to God for his will to be done.
But, he or she will be saved and in heaven.
grace and peace .............
You have posted what i have been trying to explain in my other thread. Being saved, the Holy Spirit will then discipline the saved person.
