What is hyper grace........

[Grace777x70]

Dolly Parton does a wonderful song called "I believe in Santa Claus." It stirs me.

And then I remember just because it stirs me doesn't mean I believe what she believes. I think this often with Hillsong. They're very passionate. They stir to my depth. They're also very wrong. Salvation isn't through repentance. It's through Christ. Repentance is what happens after salvation. Salvation is cause. Repentance is effect.

Hmmm.....well if we never changed our way of thinking to believe in Christ's salvation on the cross and resurrection - we wouldn't have anything but a religion left.

Repentance to believe in the gospel of the grace of God is from God Himself. Repentance is trusting in what God has done in Christ. It's a whole new way of thinking. Paul calls it the renewing of the mind in Rom. 12:2


Acts 11:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 20:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm not really into Dolly Parton at all but I hear she is a good singer. But I believe I will stick with Jesus.



Mark 1:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

[SUP]15 [/SUP] and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."


It is the kindness of God in Christ that leads us to repentance - which is to rely on Christ for all things instead of ourselves. Change the way we think concerning Christ and YES - that means towards sinning too.

Romans 2:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

 

[Cee]

Can you please explain this statement with Scripture: Salvation is the cause, repentance is the effect?

Because I read Jesus' saying repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. And people turned and believed before they knew He would die. Unless the idea you're presenting is grace is irresistible? If that's the case, I don't know very many songs you'd completely agree with, Hillsong or not.

Dolly Parton does a wonderful song called "I believe in Santa Claus." It stirs me.

And then I remember just because it stirs me doesn't mean I believe what she believes. I think this often with Hillsong. They're very passionate. They stir to my depth. They're also very wrong. Salvation isn't through repentance. It's through Christ. Repentance is what happens after salvation. Salvation is cause. Repentance is effect.

 

[dcontroversal]

I can get a kick out of Legalist's attempts to place a derogatory label on people who trust God's grace when Legalists first invented the name.

Just like we laugh about Hillary trying to put us down by calling us a "basket of deplorables". Thanks to her, we now proudly throw the same term back at her.

Legalistic haters also first tried to defame Followers of Christ there in Antioch by calling them what was meant to be a derogatory name... "CHRISTIANS." Now, even YOU call yourself by that name that was originally meant to mock us.

98% of the time when he speaks it is blah blah blah blah blah......

 

[Willie-T]

Can you please explain this statement with Scripture: Salvation is the cause, repentance is the effect?

Because I read Jesus' saying repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. And people turned and believed before they knew He would die. Unless the idea you're presenting is grace is irresistible? If that's the case, I don't know very many songs you'd completely agree with, Hillsong or not.

Even some preachers have been indoctrinated to believe 'repentance' is feeling sorry, beating your breast, and groveling in sackcloth.... rather than deciding on trusting Jesus' promise to save us, instead of hoping excellence and proficiency in rule-keeping will do it.

 

[PeterJens]

Repentance is trusting in what God has done in Christ.

Now if you change the meaning of hebrew and what God defines as repenting of sin,
commiting to do good things, is God heart. In Christ the Lord reveals both His heart
and the power to walk in His ways.

G7 and all who follow this distorted view of Gods message are His enemies.

In some strange way they have made the sin in their hearts immovable, and deny
the power of the cross in so doing. They have made not accepting their view to be
a sin, while this has never been the message of Christ.

Christ came to define both righteousness and justice along with love and victory.
If you compromise any of these principles you compromise it all.

So deeply embedded in the world are G7 and the group that they believe Christ is
interested in wealth and power, which God the creator already has both, which he
abandoned to show us His heart, yet they believe it is the hallmark of their faith,
which underlines how wrong they are.

They want so desperately to believe they have arrived without actually meeting
the Lord and falling in love with Him and how He works, it becomes just a religious
discussion rather than a testimony of the light coming to darkness.. And the reason
they do not agree or see this is because for them the light has not dawned.

 

[Willie-T]

Now if you change the meaning of hebrew and what God defines as repenting of sin,
commiting to do good things, is God heart. In Christ the Lord reveals both His heart
and the power to walk in His ways.

G7 and all who follow this distorted view of Gods message are His enemies.

In some strange way they have made the sin in their hearts immovable, and deny
the power of the cross in so doing. They have made not accepting their view to be
a sin, while this has never been the message of Christ.

Christ came to define both righteousness and justice along with love and victory.
If you compromise any of these principles you compromise it all.

So deeply embedded in the world are G7 and the group that they believe Christ is
interested in wealth and power, which God the creator already has both, which he
abandoned to show us His heart, yet they believe it is the hallmark of their faith,
which underlines how wrong they are.

They want so desperately to believe they have arrived without actually meeting
the Lord and falling in love with Him and how He works, it becomes just a religious
discussion rather than a testimony of the light coming to darkness.. And the reason
they do not agree or see this is because for them the light has not dawned.

How is it that the Bible says God, himself, repented something like 28 times? Was He trying to quit all that sinning?

 

[phil36]

How is it that the Bible says God, himself, repented something like 28 times? Was He trying to quit all that sinning?

Thats an interesting one Willie-T,

Are you saying God repents or regrets like man does? Im not sure what you mean, But I am sure 1 Samuel 15 sheds some light on the matter:

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the Lord all night.

---

29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.”


[/FONT]

 

[Grace777x70]

How is it that the Bible says God, himself, repented something like 28 times? Was He trying to quit all that sinning?

I never really counted them but scriptures does say that God "repented" in a number of places. Like this one here:

1 Samuel 15:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

1 Samuel 15:29 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

5341. nācham

verb

​

to repent, to relent, to take comfort

​

Complete Biblical Library Hebrew-English Dictionary - The Complete Biblical Library Hebrew-English Dictionary – Nun-Ayin.

Sometimes when we are confronted with things that go against what we were religiously taught - we think we are "defending the faith" but we could just be "defending our church traditions".

Sometimes our "sacred cows" need to be sacrificed. That is never a pleasant time for some of us it seems and so we attack those that are teaching things that go against our "cows of church traditions and beliefs" - It's the way of the religious world that we all live in.

 

[PeterJens]

How is it that the Bible says God, himself, repented something like 28 times? Was He trying to quit all that sinning?

Now this question is a good question. God changed His approach from one tactic to another.
Now there are various things that have to be taken into account. God took one position to
make a point, and changed the approach once this was fulfilled.

In our sense this was expressed as one approach failed, while another succeeded. But God
foreknew this would happen, so it happened to demonstrate the end goal is not taking one
strategy, but a relationship, a giving and receiving, and the interplay matters.

So our being lost in sin is part of Gods plan, and not something wrong. The need for the
second death, failure and success are also part of Gods plan. There cannot be one without
the other. So repentance is not just about sin, but about approaches to problems, and then
realising something now needs to be done differently.

But it seems you want just one definition and one approach, though God is laying out he works
at many levels with many different types of people.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

If you don't understand why I believe in this doctrine, I am perfectly willing to share why. I would actually love to have that conversation with you.

Here's the Scripture I believe you're quoting:

2 Tim 3 1But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Please notice in this Scripture that in the last days people will be:

1. Lovers of self (self-righteousness, self-protection, self-pleasure, etc.)
2. People won't love God or each other
3. People won't love what is good
4. People won't believe the gospel transforms people to love God or people (they deny it's power).
5. These people will be proud (not open to correction)
6. These people will be arrogant (not open to other opinions)
7. These people will be ungrateful (not thankful)

And what I have found in my life and the lives I've witnessed, that the doctrine of grace that empowers people to love God and be transformed by Him actually results in more love for Him and for each other. This doctrine is what many would call "hyper-grace", but it's simply grace. Grace that actually accomplishes what it was set forth to do.

Because when people THINK they have to do it in their ability, that's when they get prideful, arrogant, self-righteous, ungrateful, and fearful because they are "protecting" what they are scared to lose. And when people poke at what they protect they attack because that is where their safety lies.

Grace always, always, points us to His power not our own. Because no man can boast. It is His FREE gift that transforms us. And thus it reveals His glory first in us and then through us. It is truly good news.

C.

Cee,have you looked at
1st John 1:9
King James Version(KJV)

9.)If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
+++
I think many people have differing Interpretations of that scripture.

 

[Willie-T]

Now this question is a good question. God changed His approach from one tactic to another.
Now there are various things that have to be taken into account. God took one position to
make a point, and changed the approach once this was fulfilled.

In our sense this was expressed as one approach failed, while another succeeded. But God
foreknew this would happen, so it happened to demonstrate the end goal is not taking one
strategy, but a relationship, a giving and receiving, and the interplay matters.

So our being lost in sin is part of Gods plan, and not something wrong. The need for the
second death, failure and success are also part of Gods plan. There cannot be one without
the other. So repentance is not just about sin, but about approaches to problems, and then
realising something now needs to be done differently.

But it seems you want just one definition and one approach, though God is laying out he works
at many levels with many different types of people.

So, are you saying that since God knew we would sin, He told us to come up with a new approach, and no longer sin after a certain point in time? Then why do we keep on sinning? You certainly aren't going to try to say that you don't, are you?

 

[PeterJens]

Interesting point - Why did God make Saul King if he knew he would fail?

Surely everything that God does is perfect, and has a defined answer?
The Lord chooses people to demonstrate people and their nature in correspondence
to His own.

The Lord did not want the Israelites to have a King but He relented. And the history
of Kings of Israel was evil, though for Judah and Benjamin it varied. It was though a
compromise, so not a black and white solution.

The problem with the word repent in relation to sin and doing righteous deeds it is very
much about direction, intention and actions. As you can repent of doing evil, you can
repent of doing good. It is primarily about opposites, of going in one direction and then
turning about and going in another direction.

But hey, G7 wants to say this is a religious problem, rather than this is just defining one
of the key principles behind Gods dealings with mankind. But then what would G7 know,
he gets so much wrong, one more thing is not going to make any difference, lol.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a scripture in Jeremiah 18:8 that is in the Greek Septuagaint which uses the Greek word for "repent" - metanoia - which means to change the mind.

This is the exact same word that Jesus used in Mark 1:15 when He said "Repent" and believe the gospel".

Jeremiah 18:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jeremiah 18:8 - repent - 3340 μετανοήσω - I shall change my mind

LSJ Gloss:

μετανοέω

to change one's mind

Dodson:

μετανοέω

I repent, change my mind

I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.


There is no doubt that the greek word "metanoia" means to change one's mind and yes for the believer in Christ it applies to the way we view sinning and also everything else to do with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ and the gospel of the grace of Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

Here is a scripture in Jeremiah 18:8 that is in the Greek Septuagaint which uses the Greek word for "repent" - metanoia - which means to change the mind.

This is the exact same word that Jesus used in Mark 1:15 when He said "Repent" and believe the gospel".

Jeremiah 18:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jeremiah 18:8 - repent - 3340 μετανοήσω - I shall change my mind

LSJ Gloss:

μετανοέω

to change one's mind

Dodson:

μετανοέω

I repent, change my mind

I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.


There is no doubt that the greek word "metanoia" means to change one's mind and yes for the believer in Christ it applies to the way we view sinning and also everything else to do with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ and the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I was going to type that repent means to change one's mind and AGREE with God.......but was lazy........hah

 

[jaybird88]

What is hyper grace........

its a way around passages like:

1 John 2 4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, [SUP]5 [/SUP]but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: [SUP]6 [/SUP]whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

 

[Grace777x70]

I was going to type that repent means to change one's mind and AGREE with God.......but was lazy........hah

Amen!

Here is a good source for anyone who likes to look things up in the Greek Septuagaint.

Just type in the scripture reference and "voila" - off we go Horatio!

Jeremiah 18:8 - Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear

 

[PeterJens]

So, are you saying that since God knew we would sin, He told us to come up with a new approach, and no longer sin after a certain point in time? Then why do we keep on sinning? You certainly aren't going to try to say that you don't, are you?

Willie - I know you want a simple answer. But how would you describe your relationship with
your wife? It is complicated. Following Christ is about a personal relationship and language which
is unique to each believer and their story.

And part of this relationship is about what is sin, what is ones focus and where and why we are
travelling. So what works for Peter is not what worked for John.

How do we resolve base emotional drives with morality or responsibility and choice? Are we
really able to choose, and are we the victims of who we have become?

It staggers me though I have been married 26 years, still many things in me and my wife are
a mystery. We talk about love, things we care about dearly, yet there is also anger, frustration,
disappointment and conflict. Some get so disappointed, they become bitter disputing people, yet
love is meant to be our dream.

Yet I am told I have got it all so wrong, and you guys have got it all so right, it is religion against
acceptance. Never has been from my perspective...

 

[PeterJens]

One small point. To agree with God is just taking on His views of reality.
And His view is sin is destructive and evil, and should never be followed, and righteousness
is good and loving and should always be followed.

So repenting is stopping sinning and walking righteously. So this whole argument is circular.

What matters is Gods will and His Kingdom.
Either you walk in it and follow Him or you are His enemy.

 

[Angela53510]

what we have here is someones opinion. And division being caused, Because she admits she does not know what it means, But she thinks it "most likely" means something.

That is why this debate has been barred by the mods. Because it got nasty on both sides of the table.

Sorry! I was trying to make my posts not so adamant and dictatorial. It was not my opinion, but the Bible, which I might add, you only rarely use in the BDF.

I made a definitive post in another thread, and got called in that, too. So it seeems like if someone is out to get you, it doesn't matter what tone you use, nor what you say, nor how you support a Bible verse in context. Someone is going to shoot you down! I'm just glad I have skin as thick as an elephant's particularly when people like you, EG are just on the wrong side of this whole debate about hypergrace.

And as far as the mods, I will be reporting this thread. I think the OP was hust asking a simple question about a definition! I'm sure they had no idea how contentious this whole topic is at CC!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

its a way around passages like:

1 John 2 4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, [SUP]5 [/SUP]but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: [SUP]6 [/SUP]whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Since the same GOD that spoke In the old covenant Is the same GOD that spoke In the new covanant and since GOD does not change, do you believe we should keep the law and be under grace at the same time?