R
Ric
Guest
Eternal separation. Whatever likeness Jesus used for its similarity in this world must fall short of it's torment. - Separated from the creator forever.
What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? Is it Loving?
- Thread starter Jason0047
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Can a person have life without the Son? See 1 John 5:12. Do wicked people live forever (i.e. have eternal life) because Jesus lives within them. Remember, the Scriptures say only Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).
We gain "immortality" only from the gospel
There is a gift we get from believing the gospel; it is called "everlasting life" (John 3:16). Paul calls this gift (immortality) an integral part of the gospel message,
"Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10).
If all souls are born immortal, then why are we encouraged to seek it?
"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:" (Romans 2:7)
"If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever." (John 6:51)
"I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." (John 10:10)
In 1 Timothy 6:15-16, Paul says that God alone possesses immortality. And 1 Corinthians 15:53 teaches that the Redeemed will not become immortal until the time of their resurrection.
Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Note: While I agree with this site's view on the Lake of Fire, I do not agree on their view of soul sleep or a denial of the intermediate state, i.e. Hades).
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It was a question.
Do wicked people live forever (i.e. have eternal life) because they have Jesus living within them?
If all people have eternal life, then why does the Scriptures say that life can only be found in the Son?
Surely there is no life outside the Son. Unless you believe everyone has the Son on some level --- Which would be a New Age teaching and not a Biblical one. For those who are into the New Age version of Christianity (Like Christian Science, etc.) believe that all evil people can just tap into the Christ consciousness that is within them (But they simply choose not to tap into it); As if God was some kind of "force" like from Star Wars. You know, like when Luke tells Vader that he can sense the good within him?
Even in Torah (The Books of Moses), there was no basis for unending physical torture -- none. The conscience strokes due to a person were always limited.
If the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make him lie down and have him flogged in his presence with the number of lashes his crime deserves, but he must not give him more than forty lashes. (Deuteronomy 25:2-3)
Even Jesus taught limited conscience physical sufferings upon the guilty:
"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. (Luke 12:47-48)
Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Note: While I do believe the article's teaching that the Lake of Fire is Conditional and not Eternal; I do disagree with their denial of individuals experiencing an intermediate state, i.e. Hades, or Hell).
If the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make him lie down and have him flogged in his presence with the number of lashes his crime deserves, but he must not give him more than forty lashes. (Deuteronomy 25:2-3)
"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. (Luke 12:47-48)
Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Note: While I do believe the article's teaching that the Lake of Fire is Conditional and not Eternal; I do disagree with their denial of individuals experiencing an intermediate state, i.e. Hades, or Hell).
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Now, the ECT proponent will love to quote two of their supposedly heavy hitter verses at this point. Daniel 12:2 and Revelation 14:10-11.
As for Daniel 12:2: Well, Daniel 12:2's Hebrew word translated "contempt" is used in only one other place: Isaiah 66:24, where it is lifeless, unconscious, unfeeling, rotting, smoldering corpses which are held in contempt by the living righteous. In other words, a person does not need to be alive for them to be held in contempt. For example, a lot of people have contempt for Adolf Hitler who has been dead for many years. So this is proof of conditionalism because according to the verse, while the righteous go on to eternal life, the wicked do not. The idea that they do not have eternal life is antithetical to the idea that they will be alive for eternity in hell. The fact that the only other use of the word describes how stinking carcasses are perceived by others causes Daniel 12:2 to favor annihilation in the Lake of Fire.
As for Revelation 14:10-11: Well, this passage isn't the only place where smoke rises forever from torment. In Revelation 18 the harlot in the imagery is tormented--three times, in fact--and at the beginning of chapter 19 "her smoke rises up forever and ever." There you have it: smoke rising forever from torment. But read the end of chapter 18, because there the angel tells us that the harlot represents a city which is destroyed. And both chapter 14 and 18-19 are hearkening to Isaiah 34:10 in which smoke rises up forever and ever from the destruction of Edom. And all of these passages ultimately hearken still further back to the smoke Abram saw rising up from the remains of Sodom and Gomorrah. The point is, this is imagery symbolizing permanent destruction, not eternal torment.
Sources Used:
Givemhell's Post #452
Best argument for conditionalism?
Chris Date's Post #454
Best argument for conditionalism?
As for Daniel 12:2: Well, Daniel 12:2's Hebrew word translated "contempt" is used in only one other place: Isaiah 66:24, where it is lifeless, unconscious, unfeeling, rotting, smoldering corpses which are held in contempt by the living righteous. In other words, a person does not need to be alive for them to be held in contempt. For example, a lot of people have contempt for Adolf Hitler who has been dead for many years. So this is proof of conditionalism because according to the verse, while the righteous go on to eternal life, the wicked do not. The idea that they do not have eternal life is antithetical to the idea that they will be alive for eternity in hell. The fact that the only other use of the word describes how stinking carcasses are perceived by others causes Daniel 12:2 to favor annihilation in the Lake of Fire.
As for Revelation 14:10-11: Well, this passage isn't the only place where smoke rises forever from torment. In Revelation 18 the harlot in the imagery is tormented--three times, in fact--and at the beginning of chapter 19 "her smoke rises up forever and ever." There you have it: smoke rising forever from torment. But read the end of chapter 18, because there the angel tells us that the harlot represents a city which is destroyed. And both chapter 14 and 18-19 are hearkening to Isaiah 34:10 in which smoke rises up forever and ever from the destruction of Edom. And all of these passages ultimately hearken still further back to the smoke Abram saw rising up from the remains of Sodom and Gomorrah. The point is, this is imagery symbolizing permanent destruction, not eternal torment.
Sources Used:
Givemhell's Post #452
Best argument for conditionalism?
Chris Date's Post #454
Best argument for conditionalism?
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Have i said differently? i have not said that God is not capable of being in Hades. i merely said that God will not be in Hell. Are you suggesting that God will visit those in Hell, lost for all eternity? To do what? remind them who they chose to not follow? In the End when Hell is created. satan and his demons and all of those who chose to follow the ways of satan, will be cast into a place that will be devoid of God. NOT saying God can't go there, saying He will not go there. All those in Hell will spend eternity in Hell, without the presence of God, PERIOD.
The Hell i am referring to, is not what exists today. The Hell i am referring to is the Hell that satan, demons, and all those who follow the ways of satan, will be cast into for all eternity. AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment. At the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth.
And because YOU do not see it, does it make it untrue? Have you showed any Scriptures which disproves anything that i have said above, is not Scriptural? Then it is only your opinion that it is not true based on what? NOT Scriptures, but based on your own thinking of what the Truth is.
This thought has came about because people are unwilling to imagine a loving God that would punish anyone for all eternity. Does not make the thought True though. This thought is easier to believe than what the actual Truth is. Have you not taken the verse which mentions an everlasting punishment, and CHANGED it to mean something other than what it says to fit your own belief. i will tell you the Truth, ever lasting punishment, is exactly that. All the interpreting from man to change that, won't change the Truth. and there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth, for ever.
Says who? next are you going to tell me, that seas are not people as well? Or that the 7 heads of the Beast are not peoples as well, or the 7 horns are not people (Leaders/kings). And please explain something to me. you say "the wicked people themselves are tormented forever and ever or does it say the smoke of their torment?" Can you explain to me the last part of what you said, the smoke of their torment. What is THEIR TORMENT?
Now i understand, you are learned! Don't agree with what a particular verse say, so you take it to Hebrew and/or Greek to somehow change what it plainly says to mean something different that what it plainly says. yeah i use to do the same thing, i studies the Hebrew and Greek extensively, what an idiot i was, nothing but dung and wasted time. The Holy Spirit of God revealed to me Truths in a matter of minutes, that a thousand hours of studying Hebrew and Greek could not accomplish, dung. You say "The word "ever" in Revelation 20:10 is the Greek word "aion" which means "age."" So let me see if i have this right. The Word of God states they will cast into the lake of fire for ever, but you say it is not forever, it is only for an "age" based on what your studies of the Hebrew and Greek tell you, is that right? How have you not changed what the Word of God plainly teaches, to fit what you believe is the Truth?
You say Rev 20:10 is only referring to the devil, beast, and false prophet, but not believers. This is True, but if you read on you will see in verses 13-15 you will also see, and confirms what i have said, that all those people who follow the ways of satan are cast into the same lake of fire that the devil, beast, and false prophet were cast into in verse 10 which according to the Word of God lasts forever. Also notice that verse 14 talks about Death and HELL being cast into the same lake of fire. And as i have said previously. i am not talking about the Hell that is today, i am talking about the eternal punishment that comes upon all those, AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement, who follow the ways of satan. And it is eternal, lasting forever. Now the question is, in light of what these Scriptures plainly teach, are you going to accept this Truth, or discard it as to not have to change what you have probably believed all your life?
Well you continue to believe as you do brother, continue to believe what you think the Hebrew and Greek are telling you. as for me, i will continue to believe the Truth, until which point you can show me Scriptures, NOT HEBREW/Greek to back up what you believe.
^i^
Revelation 21 says the former things will pass away. There will be no more sorrow, pain, and death. Jesus essentially says, He will make all things new. Paul essentially says that last enemy to be destroyed will be death.
So if there will be no more death, and the last enemy to be destroyed is death then it is logical to conclude that there are previous enemies of God that would have been destroyed, too. Naturally, the devil, his demonic minions, and all of wicked mankind are enemies of God ---- So they will be destroyed, as well. So there is no eternity for the lost because they are enemies of God who will be destroyed just as death will be destroyed.
You make the assumption that I believe God will torment the wicked for eternity. I don't. Such a thing is not just or good and you know it deep down.
So Hell is created in the End? What verse or set of passages actually says that?
Well, you said before that Hell is not what we think. Could please elaborate on that with some Scripture?
You seemed pretty convinced that the prescence of God will not be present when any being will be tormented with fire and brimstone.
Yet Scripture says, "...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" (Revelation 14:10).
You mean "Gehenna" that is translated as Hell in the KJV; Which is another name for the the Lake of Fire. Correct?
Look, I have never heard anyone preach this particular viewpoint on Hell before, so it would probably be a good idea to back up this view in Scripture. You can't just make wild assertions about Hell and then offer no Scriptural evidence to back up those assertions. Well, you can, but if you want to be taken seriously, you would present Scripture. Just saying it is so does not make it true. We are on a Bible Discussion forum and not in a Fiction Writing forum. Prove your case with the Bible.
Well, if it was true, then surely we would be able to see a real world example of it. For Jesus illustrated spiritual truth with real world examples. In other words, if a dictator today tortured members of your unbelieving family for the rest of their lives for small petty crimes they might have done in his country, would you be thinking... "well... maybe they deserved it?" No. I doubt you would think that way. In other words, I want you to picture the most loving unbelieving person you can think of. Now, imagine them being tormented in flame for the rest of their life. Think of all the people who do charity work and have helped others and are not generally bad people that don't believe in Jesus. What about them? Can you picture them being tormented forever and ever? Yes, rejecting God (Christ) is bad and is one of the biggest sins there is. But what if it was a young man who just reached the age of accountability and they committed just one sin (that they would be held acountable for) and then they died? What then? Should they suffer for all eternity? How is that just? Can you explain it to me? You know... the justice and goodness behind that?
The point is that it is metaphorical language. The smoke is representation or a picture or symbol of something. Just as the "many waters" that the woman sits upon is a representation, or a picture, or a symbol of something.
As for the 7 heads and 7 horns, that is another topic of discussion. But yeah, I do disagree with your interpretation of that, though.
I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired perfect Word of God for our day. However, what you must realize is that the KJV is not written in Modern English but it was written in Old English. I mean, haven't you ever read a passage that was sometimes more clear and easy to understand in another translation vs. the KJV? If so, then why is that?
So do you beleive the passage in Isaiah that says God directly creates evil?
In other words, to answer your question, No, I haven't changed the Word. Words change in meaning with the passage of time. The word "ever" during the 1600's could be understood as something that was not eternal but temporal, too. Don't believe me? Just do an Eytmology search on the word "ever" and check it out for yourself (i.e. Go to Google and type in the keywords: "Eytmology ever.").
Still doesn't change anything. As I said before, they are tormented day and night for the ages of ages. Matthew 24:3 uses the same Greek word "aion" for the same Greek word "aion" in Revelation 20:10. Mathew 24:3 translates "aion" as "world." Can you make sense of that passage by saying "ever"? No. You cannot. Yet they are the same Greek words. Now, I am not discounting the fact that Greek words cannot have different meanings, but you have to realize that both the definition in the Greek and the origin of the definiition for the English word "ever" both can be defined in a temporal way.
Well, the Old English from the 1600's backs me up as well. In addition, the Conditionalist view on Revelation 20:10 also is the most consistent with the rest of verses in the Bible, too. Well, that is if you want to see it. If you don't want to see it, then no amount of verses that I provide for you will help you.
Anyways, may God bless you.
And please be well.
Side Note:
Oh, and please do not take offense, but your avatar is not what Jesus really looked like. I believe that such a drawing is false image of him. Jesus was not European/ White; He was Jewish who was darker in skin color. He also did not have long hair, either.
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P
pug32
Guest
The lake of fire is for
1. To separated the righteous from the unrighteous, for the righteous can live in a world with no pain, no sorrow, no death, and ect. The unrighteous will do anything to lord it over or hurt anybody they can. God love for the righteous.
2. To punish the unrighteous for lording or hurting anybody they can. To just separating the unrighteous from the righteous is giving a pass to all the hurt they have cause others.
[SUP]Gal. 5:19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22[/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
[SUP]26[/SUP]Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
[SUP]Rev. 20:7 [/SUP]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[SUP]Eph. 4:17 [/SUP]This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have not so learned Christ;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Neither give place to the devil.
[SUP]28[/SUP]Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
[SUP]29[/SUP]Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Your friend in Christ
pug32
1. To separated the righteous from the unrighteous, for the righteous can live in a world with no pain, no sorrow, no death, and ect. The unrighteous will do anything to lord it over or hurt anybody they can. God love for the righteous.
2. To punish the unrighteous for lording or hurting anybody they can. To just separating the unrighteous from the righteous is giving a pass to all the hurt they have cause others.
[SUP]Gal. 5:19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22[/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
[SUP]26[/SUP]Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
[SUP]Rev. 20:7 [/SUP]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[SUP]Eph. 4:17 [/SUP]This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have not so learned Christ;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Neither give place to the devil.
[SUP]28[/SUP]Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
[SUP]29[/SUP]Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Your friend in Christ
pug32
P
psalm6819
Guest
Good evening Jason.
Is God eternal? Is God spirit? Are we made in His image?? Are we spirit? Why would you think an unbelievers spirit would cease to exist?
Is God eternal? Is God spirit? Are we made in His image?? Are we spirit? Why would you think an unbelievers spirit would cease to exist?
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I'm not Christian, but I will give my two cents on this, as per many years of religious studies, a fair knowledge of Judaism's predecessors and antecessors and a current Master's Degree research proposal with psychological and sociological arguments on morality, religion and indoctrination of several types.
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Historically and contemporarily, Jews from mainstream sects do not tend to officially doctrinate specific views on the afterlife in the ways that Christian and Muslim scholars do. Various views, contingent on the specific scholarly school of Judaism, posit various notions about the life after death, facilitated by their varying perspectives on God's instrinsic nature, but few if any claim to know for definite what the afterlife holds for man.
Such a broad range of speculations exist that for the most part the Jewish community of scholars is at large wiling to be liberally interdenominational in this respect; they allow for various interpretations regarding death and the hereafter, in fact most scholars are in this manner liberal with many aspects of Judaistic doctrine. In this light, Judaism might be considered unique among the Abrahamic religions; denominational conflict is unusual by virtue of the Judaistic tendency to comprehend and even condone different renderings.
That said, one almost unanimous belief perserveres throughout the majority of renderings; that the human essence resides in 'shoel' after death - shoel, which, depending on the scholar is anything from a place of rest to a purgatorial experience. Note that few if any Jewish scholars assert the existence of an eternal realm of torture for humanity. Many do, however, merit the notion that an ungodly life means simple annihilation upon physical death.
Christianity and Islam are therefore the major advocates of hellfire doctrine. It is strange then, that these religions would spawn with such vehement ideas on the afterlife, from a religion which roundaboutly admits ''we simply don't know what happens when we die''.
Morally speaking, a notion such as eternal torture at the hands of an all-powerful creator throws up some extremely troubling dilemmas, particularly when it is taken into account that the Christian perspective of God is that he is a God of love who created man with foresight that man would fall short of his apparent expectations and require forgiveness, and so people ask 'what commonality have love and forgiveness with torture?' This dualism within God's character is perhaps the single most cognitive-dissonance-inducing aspect of Christianity, but before we attempt to address it, perhaps we should look historically at how the concept of eternal damnation to fire found its way into Christian doctrine.
From the biblical scripts in Greek and Hebrew, there exist several Greek and Hebrew words which most mainstream translators collectively render 'hell'. These words are 'shoel' (Hebrew for 'resting place of the dead'), 'hades' (Greek for 'underworld', which can be considered equivalent to the Hebrew 'shoel' as aforementioned) and 'gehenna', which is perhaps the most troublesome word. 'Gehenna', in Jewish history, is a small valley a few miles outside the walls of Jarusalem, where many graves currently lie and which can be visited at any time. It is a short trip from the City.
The first two words, 'shoel' and 'hades', historically - up until translations rendered more than a thousand years after Jesus death which rendered these words as 'hell' became commonly used - had no connotation with fire, with torture, or with eternal punishment. In Judaism, in both of the old Hebrew and the more modern Greek styles, these words simply meant 'the resting place of the dead', where all humans go after their passing to rest.
The third word 'Gehenna', however, has always had connotation with torture, right back into the older books of the Old Testament, but that connotation was not always attributed to actions carried out by God, contrary to popular opinion. 'Gehenna', as spoken about in the books of Joshua, Isaiah and Kings, was a valley outside Jarusalem, which several hundred years before Jesus' birth was home to a particularly nasty Jewish tribe who ''burned their children day and night'' and offered the charred remains as sacrifices to God. They were so vile a species of human beings in fact, that God denounced their practices and stated plainly to King Josiah that He had told them to commit none of the atrocities they commited towards their children, then God instructed the King to destroy them for what they had done.
How then, does this word 'Gehenna', a place full of people whom God opposed vehemently for burning their children, come to be translated and rendered as 'hell', the place many believe God will burn many of his children for eternity? Doesn't it seem odd to you -- poetically tragic, unrealistically ironic even -- that God would oppose the Gehennites burning of their children, only to burn most of his own children in a place called 'Gehenna', which we translate 'hell'?
Doesn't it also seem odd that evidence would suggest that the first mention of a burning hell to which God sends sinners is in Greek fiction more than a thousand years after Jesus death, and was later adopted by the church as a doctrine?
The duality implied in God's character when we assert the existence of an eternal torture in hell which somehow confirms his status as 'a God of love' is evident from the earliest infant conceptions we all may have of 'hell'. 'Love', and eternal burning are indeed contradictory terms, and this can be conveyed not only as a literary faux-pas on part of translators and as a historical contradiction in God's character, but also as a moral conundrum evidenced by study of biblical definitions and the character of Jesus christ himself.
Paul defines love, in his letters to Corinth, as 'patient, kind, non-boasting, non-proud, something that does not dishonour others, something unselfish, soft tempered, not delighting in evil, truthful, not begrudging, protective, trusting, hopeful and persevering'.
In Jesus Christ, the moral teacher whose instructions provide the basis of all Christian morality, we see these traits. Jesus showed great patience in answering many difficult questions. Jesus showed great kindness is healing those who were suffering. Jesus showed great reserve when thrown awry questions and requests to show his magnificence by the Pharisees. Jesus showed great humility in washing his disciples' feet. Jesus showed a desire not to dishonor by not disclosing Judas' identity as the traitor, even when he knew who it was. Jesus showed great unselfishness in being captured willingly so that his disciples could escape unharmed. Jesus showed soft temperament in many instances, even when he had cause to be angry. Jesus showed no delight in evil, not even in evils being used to repay evils, and many times reiterated the cause - to do good to those who do evil against you. Jesus told the truth. Jesus did not begrudge those around him. Jesus protected and sustained those with him. Jesus trusted his disciples. Jesus had hope for man and the goodness his disciples would do after he was gone, and Jesus persevered until his death.
It is quite obvious then, that the characteristics of love are displayed in the actions of Jesus' daily life, and it is only logical that if God's character is displayed perfectly in Jesus, that God abides by the same loving tendencies as listed here. John says that 'God is a God of light, no darkness exists in him whatsoever' and goes on to note that wickedness is darkness. Wickedness is against God's nature. Jesus, of course, is light just as God is, and showed no wickedness, but rather he 'loved his enemies'. He abided by his own instructions, for if he did not, he would be a hypocrite. Thus, it becomes God and Jesus to live by the standards they set; standards of forgiveness, kindness, and love. How, then, if Jesus did not torture nor physically harm a single person, did not commit an act of hate, sacrificed himself, forgave continually, and upheld the characteristics of the love he commands, can God torture his own children and still be considered a God of love in the definitions He gave us?
The simple answer is that he can't.
When Jesus speaks of 'gehenna' he uses the term as a warning. He talks about those who sin and do not change their ways living in an 'outer darkness', a great 'fire', burning the soul, where the wicked have no peace of mind in the day or in the night. But is Jesus really saying, despite all his instructions to love which he himself adhered to, that he will actually carry out the burning of most of humanity, day and night, for all eternity? It seems rather contradictory to think so, a very difficult dualism that is almost impossible to entirely accept or reconcile, if we are to assert that Jesus remains steadfast in his moral character.
What if, rather than proclaiming that either he or God will burn those who do not repent, Jesus is actually suggesting that those who have no regard for their sins will end up as morally blind as those who burned their children in Gehenna hundreds of years before his birth? Gehenna and its atrocities were no secret to the Jewish people of Jesus' time, and in fact the mere mention of the place would illicit a shamefulness among the people; a revulsion at the idea that God would be appeased by the offering of charred remains of infants and toddlers. And so, perhaps Jesus used the term as a deterrent, a way of saying ''look outside the city walls to Gehenna, remember it, look and see where recklessness leads'', for of course, it is recklessness and heedlessness that led the citizens of Gehenna to the most grave immorality in the first place -- burning their own children.
I'm not a Christian, but this dilemma's answer seems quite obvious to me; the people who hold God to the highest standard of love, like the standard above -- the standard that can be reconciled with itself -- tend to hold themselves to the highest standard of love, yet those who are quick to talk about God's judgement, wrath, and hatred, are usually the first to display judgement, wrath and hatred. Nowhere does Jesus command people to be judgemental, wrathful or hateful, and nowhere does Jesus display judgemental attitudes, wrath, or hatred.
Doesn't it seem odd to you that this man could disregard his teaching to others, which are upheld by his own character, and send billions upon billions of his children to burn for eternity, particularly when God despised human beings for burning their children? It seems to me that a Christian person who believes that God (the highest moral authority) can be both benevolent and malevolent, yet totally loving, are quite satisfied to display both love and hatred and still consider themselves the most moral beings on this planet.
What is the saying -- ''The morals of your God are the limit to your ethics''? ..
Perhaps a better rendition is ''You are made in your God's image'' ....
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J
justin777
Guest
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
He gives eternal life as a gift no one possesses it except Him.
Here's the definition of the word life that you posted.
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- life
- the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
- every living soul
- life
- of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature
- life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect body), and to last for ever.
Eternal damnation is different from eternal life.
Thanks for the questions hope I was clear.
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So you don't believe love and righteousness are not tied together? I thought the verses I presented were pretty clear on that point. If you disagree with them, then please feel free to prove your case otherwise.
Baseless accusations does not help to prove your side of the argument. If you believe I twisted someone's words, then why don't you quote what words you think I twisted? If you feel I have twisted Scripture, then why don't you quote verses you think I twisted? I would be more than happy to discuss them and clear up any misunderstanding. Are you truly interested in doing that? Or are you more interested in mud slinging?
You said Hell is not loving. I was responding to that statement (of which you didn't provide a Scripture verse for). Actually, you asked for forgiveness for not reading the thread. Well, you don't need to apologize but you need to actually go back and actually read this thread. For I have provided many verses that back up the position of Conditionalism and give an answer for the false understanding on Eternal Torment.
Jason0047 said:
A good detective looks at the motivation of why someone does what they do. In this case, you are just blindly quoting a truth that is only a surface answer with no real reason why. In other words, I shouldn't need a Bible verse to tell you that Hell was created to punish the devil and his minions for their wickedness in rebelling against God. God is obviously carrying out justice in punishing them. For God will carry out justice upon them. For know you not that we shall judge angels? Is not their final sentence the Lake of Fire? In other words, when people sin, they associate with the devil's rebellion or evil. In fact, we know the Hell fire within the Lake of Fire will be for the purpose of justice or in executing vengeance. For such flaming fire of vengeancce will punish the wicked.
2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
As I said before here in this thread, Paul essentially says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This means there are other enemies of God in whom he destroys. We learnin Revelation 21 that death will be no more. This pattern of death being no more lets us know the pattern of the type of destruction that will occur for death. So all the other enemies of God will face the same fate. Destruction; And not eternal torment.
You equate eternal Judgment with Eternal punishing. Judgment is exactly what it means. Judgment. There will one day be a future Judgement where God will judge the wicked. It will be a Judgment with everlasting consequences. It will not be a Judgment where God is going to keep Judging people every single day of their lives.
And second death means death and not eternal torment. When Jesus said I come to give you life....and to give it to you more abundantly, he meant that. Only eternal life can be found in the Son because God alone possesses immoratality. No Son means no life (1 John 5:12). In other words, if someone is going to be eternally damned, they need to have eternal life from abiding in Christ in order to be eternally damned.
1 John 5:12 says life can only be found in the Son and that there is no life outside the Son. 1 Timothy 6 says Jesus alone posesses immortality; Not other humans.
In order for someone to be eternally damned, they need to have eternal life by abiding in the Son. Hebrews 7:16 says Jesus is made after the power of an endless life. Meaning, only Jesus has an endless life. Only those who abide in Jesus can have the power of an endless life because such a power is exclusive to Jesus because He is God.
In other words, Jesus cannot be made after the power of an endless life as spoken about in Hebrews 7:16 if we were also made after the power of an endless life, too.
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Dear Angela. I just read a little more of your post (Because it was long), and it appears that you now agree with me that love and righteousness are tied together as one. What concerned me is that you said Hell is not loving and that in that statement you also said love and righteousness are two sides of God as if they were two different things.
Anyways, I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Peace be unto and may God bless you.
Dear Angela. I just read a little more of your post (Because it was long), and it appears that you now agree with me that love and righteousness are tied together as one. What concerned me is that you said Hell is not loving and that in that statement you also said love and righteousness are two sides of God as if they were two different things.
Anyways, I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Peace be unto and may God bless you.
Because he uses real world examples instead of the simple truth and the words found therein!
I am only following the example of my Lord. For Jesus used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth.
In addition, I have provided many verses that back the Biblical Conditional Viewpoint, too. You are welcome to discuss those verses I brought up.
For example. Take Hebrews 7:16. How can Jesus be made after the power of an endless life if we are all made after the power of an endless life?
How can you call the Second Death as death if it is not like the first death? If one says they are cut off from God in the second death, then that does not make any sense because they would already be cut off previously.
How can you call the Second Death as death if it is not like the first death? If one says they are cut off from God in the second death, then that does not make any sense because they would already be cut off previously.