When are we married?
- Thread starter Dai3234
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It is helpful to realize how marriages were cemented in Biblical times. Let's say a virgin woman was to be married. A man or his father might approach her father, discuss a marriage between himself or his son with the virgin daughter. The groom or his father pays a bride price. The bride's father agree to it, and they were married. In Jewish tradition, the girl is expected to consent before a marriage can take place, and an example of this is Rebecca giving her consent.
At a certain time, the groom would come and collect the bride, and there would be a big wedding party.
If a virgin fornicated with a man she was not instantly married to him because they had slept together. The man could be compelled to marry her and never divorce her. But if her father refused, he received the bride price but did not have to give her in marriage to the man who seduced her. So having sex alone doesn't make a man and woman married.
Compare this to the modern wedding of saying vows before a religious figure in front of an audience. Actually, I read a little about the pre-Christian pagan Roman wedding. A couple would stand before a priest (or was it priestess) and the bride would give consent by saying 'Where you are Gaius, I am Gaia." (The bride had a female version of her father' s name prior to this.) Eventually, the groom would pick up the bride and run away with her family chasing, imitating how the early Romans were said to have stolen their brides from other tribes, (the inspiration for Seven Brides and Seven Brothers.) Wearing a ring on the ring finger was also a Roman practice.
So let's consider where the modern 'Christian wedding' may have come from. Romans were used to a certain wedding ceremony. When they converted, they may have gotten rid of the pagan priest and replaced him or her with the church elder/priest. Instead of saying what they did before, they developed some words for the Christian ceremony.
Actually, the only passage we have of what was said during a marriage ceremony was when Boaz redeemed property from a relative. He had the elders of the city there as witnesses. He declared that along with the land, he was receiving his dead relative's widow, Ruth, as his wife.
well then study what fornication originally is and adultery.. and itll make sense to you lol
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Ceremonies aren't adultery, but the physical act. The physical act of sex is marriage.
Genesis 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
No ceremony, just the physical act to raise up a seed.
Ceremonies aren't adultery, but the physical act. The physical act of sex is marriage.
Genesis 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
No ceremony, just the physical act to raise up a seed.
That's what it looks like to me. As a woman may marry many husband's that die after another, but she will be no man's wife in heaven as no-one is given in marriage in heaven, we will be like angels it roughly says.
God doesn't want us to marry more than once because it is not what is godly. But we are able. Then if/when were forgiven, anyone we have become one flesh with, mustn't it mean we are forgiven of the other marriage sins so are only married to the first marriage?
So what about a girl who had several sexual partners during her life.
Is she married to all?
Dai, may I inquire as to why you are asking? Not that it is really important, but it does seem you are attached to your idea of one flesh meaning children, and I was wondering why. Marriage was often used as a symbol of God's faithfulness to us, whereas our proclivity to making idols of anything and everything else was looked at as adultery in God's eyes. God even had one of His prophets (Hosea) marry a prostitute, to show God's people what their unfaithfulness looked like to Him.
I wonder also what you find confusing. Consider the fact that the first recorded miracle of Jesus in the gospel of John is performed at wedding ceremony, where He turns water (used in purification rituals required by the law) into wine, which is later representative of His blood, which was spilled out of His great love for us on the cross, that we may attain to life ever after through faith in His propitiatory sacrifice on our behalf, for He took the penalty of sin upon Himself. The law was nailed to the cross, for Jesus fulfilled the law. This does not mean the law is of no account any more for anyone, for not one jot nor tittle has been removed, since it is used to judge the non believing. To fail in one aspect of the law is to fail in all.
The Bible ends again with a wedding ritual: Jesus the Bridegroom being wed to us, His bride, the faithful, where we are to be united as one in Him throughout the rest of eternity. Those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life following the resurrection and judgement of all pass into the second death.
I wonder also what you find confusing. Consider the fact that the first recorded miracle of Jesus in the gospel of John is performed at wedding ceremony, where He turns water (used in purification rituals required by the law) into wine, which is later representative of His blood, which was spilled out of His great love for us on the cross, that we may attain to life ever after through faith in His propitiatory sacrifice on our behalf, for He took the penalty of sin upon Himself. The law was nailed to the cross, for Jesus fulfilled the law. This does not mean the law is of no account any more for anyone, for not one jot nor tittle has been removed, since it is used to judge the non believing. To fail in one aspect of the law is to fail in all.
The Bible ends again with a wedding ritual: Jesus the Bridegroom being wed to us, His bride, the faithful, where we are to be united as one in Him throughout the rest of eternity. Those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life following the resurrection and judgement of all pass into the second death.
My point was to query who people are actually married to. I'm not married but have had previous physical relations, no children. But others have had many marriages. When your forgiven, who are you married to? None because your forgiven of false marriage. Or the first? Etc. Or doesn't it matter because your forgiven and it's forgotten?
Thank you for answering
I see how you could find it confusing. A similar question was put to Jesus, and you did refer to that already about being like the angels in heaven and not being given in marriage (following the resurrection). To require a person to return to their first marriage partner does not really make sense. What if the marriage was quit on legitimate grounds? Biblically, that would be unfaithfulness of the other (Matt 19:8-9), or the unbeliever leaving the believer (1 Cor. 7:15). Marriage is the first institution created/legitimized by God, who says it is not good for man to be alone, but obviously neither is it good for us to have multiple partners. Does that not speak to the inability to control one's passions? To the woman at the well, Jesus said she'd had multiple men yet none of them had truly been her husband. Here is an interesting page on the matter. BIBLICAL MARRIAGE and the Woman At The Well: Reality Exposed | Today's Christian Marriage Also, Paul did say that if you have been married and are no longer, that it is better to remain single, for surely one can better devote their life to God as a single person. This does not appeal to many, perhaps especially at a younger age.
I do not think you should consider yourself to have ever
been married just because you have had previous partners.
Yes, I see a potential answer that reinforces the giving of the heart, maybe. If the well woman was never married, they may not have shared the same heart as it were.Thank you for answering
Marriage is the first institution created/legitimized by God, who says it is not good for man to be alone, but obviously neither is it good for us to have multiple partners. Does that not speak to the inability to control one's passions? To the woman at the well, Jesus said she'd had multiple men yet none of them had truly been her husband. Here is an interesting page on the matter. BIBLICAL MARRIAGE and the Woman At The Well: Reality Exposed | Today's Christian Marriage Also, Paul did say that if you have been married and are no longer, that it is better to remain single, for surely one can better devote their life to God as a single person. This does not appeal to many, perhaps especially at a younger age.
I do not think you should consider yourself to have ever
been married just because you have had previous partners.
But staying single isn't really a choice for me. It's forced upon me no matter what I do. That's why I've been single for 33years. It's depressing but true. And it just gets more annoying to hear people around saying things from the opposite position. Basically the same as saying cheer up to a depressed suicidal person. I think even mother Theresa wrote about the unbearable loneliness. And she was one of the stronger people compared to me / us. A man living at home is just unattractive. But marriage was the thread point. Not that I see anyone around.
M
MattTooFor
Guest
What is the essence of marriage? From looking at the NT scriptures, it is simply a lifelong commitment of two people to each other. By simply stating your commitment publicly to your community (which might only consist of three family members and two friends...or something like that), you could now considered yourself married.
There is no 'marriage ritual' prescribed in the Bible. In fact, this is what has caused alarming numbers of 'Christian' young people to simply move in together, apart from any vows: They don't have the $50,000 they think you would need from watching all those ridiculous cable TV shows which showcase 'fairy-tale' wedding ceremonies.
For one thing, some people don't have enough of a community of friends and family to actually have a "wedding festival". I believe as long as you publish your marriage commitment to the particular members of your circle (community) of family and friends...you can now consider yourself "married". It may sound ridiculous but...you could even email or telephone the statement, if needed. Obviously thoughg, many young women would be disappointed not to have some sort of celebration, at least at some point.
And many folks would be unsettled if you didn't go down to City Hall to receive your marriage paper from some godless bureaucrat...which of course is quite silly but...what are ya gonna do? Sometimes it's better to conform to cultural norms instead if having a big argument, I guess.
Jumping through your Mom's hoops and running down to City Hall to get that silly little piece of paper is one thing but...an elaborate wedding festival which is beyond the means of some and then, in effect, is causing them to begin "living in sin"...that's pushing legalism too far.
If you don't have the few extra thousands of dollars at the moment...you should be allowed to postpone the festival and just begin to enjoy married life.
Unfortunately, many 'old school' Christian people mistakenly believe they should impose a full-blown wedding ritual on others...and if you don't cooperate, to them it's as though you've "sinned". That is unbiblical nonsense.
Having said that, I don't think it is the worst thing you do...to have a wedding celebration which would underscore your marriage commitment and thus put that little bit of extra 'accountability' into the equation.
But there is this HUGE and dangerous trend now within even 'conservative Christian' circles...whereby scores of young people who simply want to get on with their lives, just "move in" together because they are unable to uphold the norms which the older generation wants to impose on them.
That is not Biblical. In the Old Testament, if a man seduced a virgin, he was NOT instantly married to her. He was required to marry her, but only if her father gave her in marriage. Either way, he had to pay the bride price for her. If the father gave her in marriage, they were married. If not, they were not married.
Look at a similar case with Boaz and Ruth. Boaz agreed to take Ruth as his wife before sleeping with her.
In the New Testament, in I Corinthians 7, we read of giving virgins in marriage, but we also read that the widow may marry whomever she will, but only in the Lord.
I have not read every post, so apols if this has been covered... I'll offer a logical perspective:
The marriage takes place at the completion of vows. "I now pronounce you husband and wife" is a standard summary of the ceremony, which makes a clear statement to all present that "It has been made official." If the marriage took place only when the couple consummated, they couldn't within committing sin. In truth, they are consummating a marriage which is already official.
If it was only a marriage when it produced a zygote, then as one poster responded, every childless marriage... isn't. The ability to produce children is not a requirement.
Regardless of how different cultures practice the ceremony, the key to it is the commitment, which is stated in the vows. God recognizes non-Christian marriages as valid, and I strongly suspect that He recognizes even those where the vows are far less than "until death parts us". I also believe that He holds accountable to proper vows those who have married with something less.
Sorry, I haven't got Scripture to back up all of this. :/
The marriage takes place at the completion of vows. "I now pronounce you husband and wife" is a standard summary of the ceremony, which makes a clear statement to all present that "It has been made official." If the marriage took place only when the couple consummated, they couldn't within committing sin. In truth, they are consummating a marriage which is already official.
If it was only a marriage when it produced a zygote, then as one poster responded, every childless marriage... isn't. The ability to produce children is not a requirement.
Regardless of how different cultures practice the ceremony, the key to it is the commitment, which is stated in the vows. God recognizes non-Christian marriages as valid, and I strongly suspect that He recognizes even those where the vows are far less than "until death parts us". I also believe that He holds accountable to proper vows those who have married with something less.
Sorry, I haven't got Scripture to back up all of this. :/
Let's say we were in Israel in the time of Joshua. A young man goes to visit a young virgin he likes with two of his friends. He declares to his two friends that he is married to the virgin and she agrees. They go off behind the bushes and have sex? Her father finds out about it and is very angry at him. The case goes before a godly judge. How would the judge decide?
Wouldn't the judge decide that they were not married? That the father could give her in marriage, or not, but the oung man had to pay the bride price?
[FONT="]Exodus 22
16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.[/FONT]
When my mom was young, she said the preacher would just marry people right after the church service in the community where they lived. It was a lot cheaper. Some people ran off to the next state where no blood test was required to get married by a judge.
But in the Old Testament, there was a custom of having a wedding feast, and also in the New Testament. The marriage supper of the Lamb is mentioned in the book of Revleation. A wedding feast is used as an important symbol in the Bible. Maybe, on a mundane level, they serve a good purpose, too, and we shouldn't do away with the custom. But even expensive weddings in the US can be held without a weddin feast.
I wouldn't have wanted anyone to say my wife was a fornicator. It is good to marry in a way that does not offend the consciences of others. My wife's culture is rather complicated. Something very important to me was getting her father's agreement.
When I went there Hawaii seemed to have a lot of people shacking up. The cost of having a wedding must be very expensive there, and it cost somewhere between $300 and $400 to change ones name there. That could have changed since I last discussed this.
In the Old Testament, a man had to be able to pay the bride price for virgins if he wanted to marry a virgin. If the woman was a slave and wasn't his, he would have had to buy her first, unless he was a slave. In either scenario, he had to save up some money.
There are people who just ask a pastor to perform a ceremony or go to a judge. It's not that expensive.
A problem with western Christian thought is that they think marriage is based on vows. This can lead some people to argue that they should be divorced or are not married any more because the other party broke the vows. But consider some of the vows, love honor, and cherish.
What if someone says, "I want a divorce. You do not cherish me enough. You spent too much time playing video games/shopping this month, leaving me here at home." That's a little extreme, but I have heard or read vaguely similar arguments.
Technically, Protestant wedding vows are not vows. They are more along the line of let your yay be yay and your nay nay. Do Roman Catholics swear and oath?
Don't forget that the Hebrew people were being groomed to bring forth the Messiah. They were being set apart from the world, they were routinely ritually purified, they were a people whose unmarried young women were virgins, they had stringent laws for a reason, the stage was being set, everything was pointing to God pointing forward to the coming of His Son, the One Who would fulfill the requirements of the law on our behalf and pay the price for sin.
Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
A man and a woman that is considered married in God's eyes become one flesh,but it has nothing to do with children,but it says they,the man and the woman shall become one flesh,so God does not see sin.
The married couple is one in purpose unlike fornication where they are not dedicated to each other,but only fulfilling the lust of the flesh without all the commitment to care about the person in all aspects of their life.
It's that dedication to care about each other in all aspects of life and their needs that they become one flesh.
When we receive the Spirit then we become one with Jesus in that we are dedicated to Him,and Him to us,and Jesus cares about all aspects of our life and our needs,and we care about acting like Him and representing Him,and do not stray to idolatry or to whatever does not please Jesus,as Jesus will not stray to our physical needs,food and clothing,and spiritual needs.
A married couple is dedicated to each other and nobody else so they are one flesh,for they are for each other as they would be for themselves in all things,not in a few,but all things,but too bad people are more self centered today that they want their way out of the relationship and diss the other person.They want to hog up the finances,want their way in their activities,are laxidaisy when it comes to catering to the other person,will not keep themselves in good shape and looking attractive to the other person,but they throw out a lot of things today,but oh well,it is the end time so what do we expect,which the Bible said they will be lovers of them ownselves thinking highly of themselves,and basically only caring what can they get,and promise breakers,which even a lot of people that claimed to be a Christian couple divorced,but all fighting is of the flesh,and there is no fighting in the Spirit,which can you even trust people who claim to be with Christ in marriage,or are they only trying to get whatever they want whatever that may be.
Bottom line in today's world people are more what can I have and not so dedicated about what the other person wants,but only trying to cater to themselves.
The Leave it to Beaver days are over.Oh where is June Cleaver,not the stay at home mom,that cooks and cleans,but that pleasant personality and sweetness.
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
A man and a woman that is considered married in God's eyes become one flesh,but it has nothing to do with children,but it says they,the man and the woman shall become one flesh,so God does not see sin.
The married couple is one in purpose unlike fornication where they are not dedicated to each other,but only fulfilling the lust of the flesh without all the commitment to care about the person in all aspects of their life.
It's that dedication to care about each other in all aspects of life and their needs that they become one flesh.
When we receive the Spirit then we become one with Jesus in that we are dedicated to Him,and Him to us,and Jesus cares about all aspects of our life and our needs,and we care about acting like Him and representing Him,and do not stray to idolatry or to whatever does not please Jesus,as Jesus will not stray to our physical needs,food and clothing,and spiritual needs.
A married couple is dedicated to each other and nobody else so they are one flesh,for they are for each other as they would be for themselves in all things,not in a few,but all things,but too bad people are more self centered today that they want their way out of the relationship and diss the other person.They want to hog up the finances,want their way in their activities,are laxidaisy when it comes to catering to the other person,will not keep themselves in good shape and looking attractive to the other person,but they throw out a lot of things today,but oh well,it is the end time so what do we expect,which the Bible said they will be lovers of them ownselves thinking highly of themselves,and basically only caring what can they get,and promise breakers,which even a lot of people that claimed to be a Christian couple divorced,but all fighting is of the flesh,and there is no fighting in the Spirit,which can you even trust people who claim to be with Christ in marriage,or are they only trying to get whatever they want whatever that may be.
Bottom line in today's world people are more what can I have and not so dedicated about what the other person wants,but only trying to cater to themselves.
The Leave it to Beaver days are over.Oh where is June Cleaver,not the stay at home mom,that cooks and cleans,but that pleasant personality and sweetness.
You know you are really married when the mother-in-law comes for a weekend and stays indefinitely....lol..just kidding...