Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[reneweddaybyday]

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

lol thats talking about members of the body of Christ

Is it? Let's look at a section of Scripture which may help you understand:

Matthew 25:

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



Each servant had received from the lord of the servants and each servant utilized what he had been given as he saw fit.


The servants who had gained advantage with what he had been given were rewarded and entered into the joy of the lord.


The one who did nothing with what he had received was cast into outer darkness.


God does not withhold anything from mankind in order for mankind to respond to Him when He reaches out to us. When God reaches out, there are some who reject Him ... not because they do not have faith to believe ... but because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... just as we are shown in Romans 1:18-20. They are without excuse because they have been given all that is needed to believe the gospel of Christ, but they turn from the gospel to their own surmisings (man's wisdom) ... thereby suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Rom 5:18, 19 isnt concerned with the non elect.

As I indicated to you in Post #1440:

Since (according to you) the "all men" in Rom 5:18 as well as "the many" in Rom 5:19 refers only to "the elect", then "the elect" are only ones who are condemned (vs 18) and made sinners (vs 19) which means that all the rest of mankind are not condemned nor made sinners.​

​

I will no longer debate with you concerning Rom 5:18-19. I have shown you that your complete and utter mangling of God's Word has led you so far astray that you are unable to discuss these verses in any meaningful manner.​

​

Such a shame that you have been deceived by your erroneous wind of doctrine.​

​

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Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive​

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[reneweddaybyday]

Why are you reluctant to speak up for what you believe ? Dont you believe people who Christ died for, nevertheless will die in their sins and unbelief ? Yes or No, be not afraid

More rationalization for your bad behavior ... just move along and quit accusing believers.

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[reneweddaybyday]

Sorry the sinners Christ died for cannot be condemned,

The Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind, the world, the whole world:


John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Do you believe men sinned in Adam

I believe Scripture.


You claim Romans 5:12 supports your assertion that "men sinned in Adam". However, your claim is not supported by the verse:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned


Romans 5:12 tells us that through Adam, sin entered the world.

The verse does not state (as you claim) that anyone "sinned in Adam".


Romans 5:12 tells us that death passes to all because all sin.

The verse does not state (as you claim) that anyone sinned "before they had a physical being".



Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
[this verse does not support your claim that anyone "sinned in Adam" ... or that anyone sinned "before they had a physical being".]


Ezekiel 18:

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
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[reneweddaybyday]

All dont have Faith with regard to Salvation

That is what I have been telling you.


The issue is not "do you have faith?"

The issue is "in Whom do you have faith?"


Faith in a lie results in disastrous consequences (wailing and gnashing of teeth).

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ results in salvation:


Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Mans natural faith is the flesh, its unprofitable in the things of God.

There is only one faith:

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

In Whom do we have faith ... that is the issue.

If we do not have faith in God, but instead place our faith in the lies of the adversary ... we reap the consequence of our unbelief. Not because mankind doesn't have faith, but because mankind mis-utilizes that which God has given, turns from God to the lies of the adversary, and suffers drastically for having believed the lies.
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[reneweddaybyday]

all mankind doesnt have Spiritual Faith

According to Scripture, there is only one faith:

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

That is why the issue is not "do you have faith?"

The issue is "in Whom do you have faith?"


The atheist places his/her faith in the fact that there is no God. And the atheist will suffer the consequence of having faith in this lie.

The polytheist places his/her faith in the fact that there are many gods and goddesses. Again, those who do so will suffer the consequence of having faith in this lie.

The believer places his/her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And he/she will reap the benefit of having faith in this truth.


In all instances, the "faith" is the same.


When "faith" is utilized by mankind, God gives increase within the person ... whether to their benefit (when faith is utilized properly) by strengthening faith (think of Abraham who was strong in faith - Rom 4:20) or to their detriment (when faith is utilized improperly) by strengthening their unbelief (hardening their heart ... think of pharaoh).


In the case of the person who believes what he/she hears from God's Word, God works within to bring increase. When a person believes the gospel of Christ, it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Rom 1:16). And please note, it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation ... to every one that believeth.


In the case of the person who continuously places his/her faith in lies, God works within that person and in some instances God hardens the heart of those who turn from Him. Pharaoh is an example of this.


Also, look at Romans 1:18-32 where God gives up and gives over (vss 24, 26, 28). Notice these folks are not born with a reprobate mind. Each time they continue to step further and further away from God, God has to let them go (give them up/give them over).


These folks start out with that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them (Rom 1:19).


As they move further and further away from God, God lets them go (He gives them over – Rom 1:24, 26, 28).


The faith of the unbeliever is the same faith as the faith of the believer. It is the Object of faith which is crucial to mankind.
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[reneweddaybyday]

2 Thess 3:2

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.


Here is the verse in the Greek:

SBL Greek New Testament 2010
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Westcott and Hort 1881
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.


Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις


See the word ἡ ?

That is the definite article "the".


The ISV correctly renders 2 Thess 3:2 as Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith.


The verse states that there are unreasonable and wicked men who are not of the faith ... the Christian faith. There are some of other faiths who are unreasonable and wicked men.
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[reneweddaybyday]

The time of their Justification before God ? 2

Before those Christ died for ...

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the world ... the whole world ... all mankind ... all descendants of Adam:


John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The time of their Justification before God ? 2

Before those Christ died for ever believe a thing

Your statement of belief contradicts what is written in Scripture:

Romans 4:


20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

This verse does not support your claim that justification before God occurs before "those Christ died for" (which would be all mankind – John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 1 John 2:2) "ever believe a thing".

Acts 15 tells us about the council at Jerusalem after there was no small dissension and disputation (Acts 15:2).

Paul and Barnabas were ministers to the gentiles. They faithfully taught the gospel of Christ to the gentiles. However, some men came down from Judaea and taught that the gentiles could not be saved except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses (Acts 15:1).

The apostles and elders came together for to consider this matter (Acts 15:6).

After there had been much disputing, Peter stood up and spoke (Acts 15:7-11); then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul (Acts 15:12).


Then James answered with the verse you quoted (out of context to support your erroneous dogma).

Acts 15:

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


From Clarke's Commentary:

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning - As if he had said, This is not a new counsel of God: he had purposed, from the time he called the Israelites, to make the Gentiles partakers of the same grace and mercy; and ultimately to destroy those rites and ceremonies which separated them from each other.​

For you to misconstrue Acts 15:18 to indicate that God justifies anyone "before [they] ever believe" is improper interpretation of Scripture. Read the verse within the context ... do not rip a verse from its context to support erroneous dogma. Bring your dogma into alignment with Scripture. Do not attempt to align Scripture to your error.

Isa 14:24

The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand

... more misconstruction of Scripture because you neglect the context within which the verse is placed by the Author of Scripture.

Isaiah 14:24 does not support your claim that God justifies anyone "before [they] ever believe". Isaiah 14:24 relates to God's judgment on the Assyrians.


From Pulpit Commentary:

Verses 24-27. - A FURTHER PROPHECY OF DELIVERANCE FROM ASSYRIA. From the distant prospect of an ultimate deliverance from the power of Babylon, the prophet turns his gaze to a nearer, if not a greater, deliverance. The present enemy is Assyria. It is she who has arried Samaria into captivity, and who now threatens the independence of Judah. Deliverance from her has already been promised more than once (Isaiah 10:16-19, 25-27, 33, 34); but apparently the people are not reassured - they still dread the foe who is so near, and who seems so irresistible. God, therefore, condescends to give them a fresh prophecy, a fresh assurance, and to confirm it to them by an oath (ver. 24). The Assyrian power shall be broken - her yoke shall be cast off (ver. 25); God has declared his purpose, and nothing can hinder it (ver. 27).​

Quit ripping verses out of context and then using the verses to prop up an erroneous dogma never intended by God.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Then those whom He Justifieth are so according to His Will;

The will of God is that mankind is justified by faith:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

By His will He redeemed them from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13

And again, when we read the verse in context, we see what the will of God is:

Galatians 3:

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
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[brightfame52]

renewed says

Since (according to you) the "all men" in Rom 5:18 as well as "the many" in Rom 5:19 refers only to "the elect", then "the elect" are only ones who are condemned (vs 18) and made sinners (vs 19) which means that all the rest of mankind are not condemned nor made sinners.

Rom 5 is about federal headship, Adam was a the federal head of the elect, yet became the natural head of the non elect, whereas Christ was and is the federal head of only the elect, his Church Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Christ only sustained a federal headship with His Church, whereas Adam sustained one with the Church and the non elect goats.

So what Adam did affected the non elect and well as the elect, but what Christ did only affected the elect. So simply, all for whom Adam represented were made sinners and condemned, and likewise all for whom Christ represented was made righteous and justified. You understand now ?

 

[brightfame52]

renewwd said

Is it? Let's look at a section of Scripture which may help you understand:

Regarding my comment that Rom 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

That the every man refers to the church the body of Christ.

And specifically Paul was speaking of every man among the Church of Rome Rom 12:3


For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

He also used the phrase when writing to other believers of the Body of Christ 1 Cor 12:7

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

 

[brightfame52]

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Thats what you believe whether you admit it or not, God knows, and I know you believe that. " That people Christ died for shall die in their sins regardless"

 

[brightfame52]

The Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind, the world, the whole world:


John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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Again the world of sinners Christ died for cannot be condemned, not now not ever. Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

I believe Scripture.

Was his response to the question did men sin in Adam.

According to Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Did all men sin in Adam ? Yes or No. Is Rom 5:12 scripture ?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So what Adam did affected the non elect and well as the elect, but what Christ did only affected the elect. So simply, all for whom Adam represented were made sinners and condemned, and likewise all for whom Christ represented was made righteous and justified. You understand now ?

oh ho!!! you're finally picking up what I'm laying down ... and now you're changing your tune ... cuz in Post #1446, you stated:

Rom 5:18, 19 isnt concerned with the non elect.

Scripture exposes your erroneous dogma, and instead of submitting to what is written by the Author of Scripture ... just reading it and allowing God to work in your heart to bring increase ... you make up another workaround.

You understand now ?

Just because I provide Scripture which exposes the error of your dogma does not mean I do not understand what you're propounding.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Regarding my comment that Rom 12:3

You did not address the section of Scripture I provided which may help you understand that all have faith:

Matthew 25:

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



Each servant had received from the lord of the servants and each servant utilized what he had been given as he saw fit.


The servants who had gained advantage with what he had been given were rewarded and entered into the joy of the lord.


The one who did nothing with what he had received was cast into outer darkness.


God does not withhold anything from mankind in order for mankind to respond to Him when He reaches out to us. When God reaches out, there are some who reject Him ... not because they do not have faith to believe ... but because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... just as we are shown in Romans 1:18-20. They are without excuse because they have been given all that is needed to believe the gospel of Christ, but they turn from the gospel to their own surmisings (man's wisdom) ... thereby suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.
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[reneweddaybyday]

I know you believe that.

wow ... such arrogance ... claiming to know what only God knows ...

and more rationalization for your bad behavior.

move along ...
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[reneweddaybyday]

the world of sinners Christ died for cannot be condemned

The Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind, the world, the whole world:


John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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