Who Were The Jusaizers? Are You One? Do You Know Anybody That Is?

[Elin]

OK, please explain then how the Laws of Almighty God found in Exodus 20 are "Jewish customs".

Explain how they are not.

Well, let's see...

Gen 7:2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;

Here we see that clean and unclean were well known at least 1000 years before the first Israelite ever set foot on earth. Noah knew about clean and unclean, God did not have to explain it to him. So, how then is this classified as a "Jewish custom"?

How does that make them not Jewish customs?

Would eating English figgy pudding on Thanksgiving not be an American custom?

Nor was there clean and unclean food at the time of Noah (Ge 1:29),
nor after the time of Noah (Ge 9:3).

There was clean and unclean only for the offering of sacrifice.

Clean and unclean food originated with Leviticus.

 

[Elin]

The Spirit and the Law are in agreement, walking in the Spirit is following the Law.

Yes, it is following the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), which is love (Mt 22:37-39),

and which fulfills (performs) the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13: 8, 9, 10; Gal 5:6).

 

[Elin]

Agreed! ("the Christ would come from the Jews"), but there´s something more I won´t tell (and HE can tell you).

That has to do with worshipping, by the way.

We are agreed.

 

[john832]

How does that make them not Jewish customs?

Would eating English figgy pudding on Thanksgiving not be an American custom?

Nor was there clean and unclean food at the time of Noah (Ge 1:29),
nor after the time of Noah (Ge 9:3).

There was clean and unclean only for the offering of sacrifice.

Clean and unclean food originated with Leviticus.

Quite a creative way to read the scripture to justify preconceived ideas.

 

[Elin]

Explain how they are not.

Gen 7:2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;

Here we see that clean and unclean were well known at least 1000 years before the first Israelite ever set foot on earth. Noah knew about clean and unclean, God did not have to explain it to him. So,
how then is this classified as a "Jewish custom"?

How does that make them not Jewish customs?

Would eating English figgy pudding on Thanksgiving not be an American custom?

Nor was there clean and unclean food at the time of Noah (Ge 1:29),
nor after the time of Noah (Ge 9:3).

There was clean and unclean only for the offering of sacrifice.

Clean and unclean food originated with Leviticus.

Quite a creative way to read the scripture to justify preconceived ideas.

Non-responsive.

 

[chubbena]

That's not what Matthew 5 says. Matthew 5 doesn't say obey to the best of your abilities. Matthew 5 says be perfect. That is what the law always says.

To be exact, that's not what Matthew 5 says nor that's what the law says. That's what the Lord says so obey what He teaches. He's not the Lord unless one obeys and follows wholeheartedly even through not perfectly in the flesh. I guess that's what KittenofMelchisedek meant.

 

[john832]

To be exact, that's not what Matthew 5 says nor that's what the law says. That's what the Lord says so obey what He teaches. He's not the Lord unless one obeys and follows wholeheartedly even through not perfectly in the flesh. I guess that's what KittenofMelchisedek meant.

And what Matthew 5 really says is this...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The word for perfect here is...

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

So, Christ is telling us to be complete. Now this is in the context of the Law being magnified, which is what Christ is doing here in Mat 5, 6 and 7. So He is telling us to be complete, we not only obey the letter of the Law but the spirit of the Law also.

 

[Grandpa]

But Grandpa, I died, and my life is hid with Christ on high. If to live is Christ, then I shouldn't have a problem obeying the commands, because I should be in the Spirit when it's his will, and when I'm not in the Spirit, I try not to kill any one =)

I don't need to do each one perfectly, I have to obey the Spirit of the law. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Our groom, Jesus, doesn't wanna see garbage when he goes down to his temple. Pigs eat and root in feces.

Tell me this, do you guys who disagree with keeping the law follow the rules set by Paul in the NT? Paul encourages us to keep our temples clean too.

That has been my whole point. Who is going to do a better job cleaning the temple? You, or the Lord Jesus?

Your work at the law is dirty rags.

I can't talk for anyone else but I personally don't have a problem with people keeping the law. I have a problem with people saying they keep the law when they don't. Christianity is about faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Keeping the law is a secondary benefit of this faith that doesn't even come because of our obedience or strength but because of His Obedience and Gift.

Where in the bible does it say that you don't have to keep the law perfectly? I thought I already showed you the Lords words in Matthew 5. If you don't believe Him you surely won't believe me.

I thought christians already understood this. If you could cleanse yourself what did you ever need Jesus for?

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Did you forget?

Romans 6:14-15

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

 

[Grandpa]

To be exact, that's not what Matthew 5 says nor that's what the law says. That's what the Lord says so obey what He teaches. He's not the Lord unless one obeys and follows wholeheartedly even through not perfectly in the flesh. I guess that's what KittenofMelchisedek meant.

The Lord doesn't say just try your best.

The Lord says be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

That's what the law is there for. If you are going to follow it, then follow it perfectly. IF you find you are not able to follow it perfectly then you find yourself as a sinner before God deserving His wrath.

So now what is one to do?

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

 

[Grandpa]

And what Matthew 5 really says is this...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The word for perfect here is...

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

So, Christ is telling us to be complete. Now this is in the context of the Law being magnified, which is what Christ is doing here in Mat 5, 6 and 7. So He is telling us to be complete, we not only obey the letter of the Law but the spirit of the Law also.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

You are really going to try and diminish the words of the Lord Jesus Christ? The greek word for perfect somehow means something different than what this sentence by the Lord CLEARLY means???1 John 1:5-7

[SUP]5 [/SUP]This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[just-me]

By some standards on CC members, Jesus was a Judaizer. Obviously, calling someone Judaizer for following the commandments of Messiah is not Judaizing. Observing the Sabbath is not Judaizing. Nor is abstaining from unclean foods.

Name calling and labeling what you know not of, is ignorance.

It is also Pharisaical. They (Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees) were always asking Jesus leading questions so as to refute the truth He presents.

 

[Karraster]

It is also Pharisaical. They (Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees) were always asking Jesus leading questions so as to refute the truth He presents.

I get a kick out of learning about Messiah. There are not many stories written about Him compared to all that could have been written (the world could not contain them)

When He healed the blind man with mud made from His spit, and the Pharisees got so angered!! I recently learned of a law the Pharisees had written, about it being unlawful to wipe your eyes with your saliva on the Sabbath. Wow, Messiah was in their face from day 1.

 

[chubbena]

The Lord doesn't say just try your best.

The Lord says be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

Exactly. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

That's what the law is there for. If you are going to follow it, then follow it perfectly. IF you find you are not able to follow it perfectly then you find yourself as a sinner before God deserving His wrath.

Wrath does not apply to the sons of God. The bible says God will discipline.

So now what is one to do?

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

You may go back and read what KittenofMelchisedek has written. It's good stuff.

 

[RedTent]

You must be misunderstanding me.

I am asking for no explanation of the food laws.

I have a clear understanding of the food laws from the NT,
in 1Tim 4:3-5; Ro 14:14, 17, 20; 1Co 8:8, 10:25; Heb 9:10; Col 2:16-17; Mk 7:19.

God gave you a book with all the instructions you need to live in His world, God used how people lived in His world to explain. It covers thousands of years, most of those years leading up to a very main event. In this book God tells of how grace, love, faith, cleanliness, holiness, and many things work together. A very main event is the day Christ rose from the dead.

You are saying you know all about everything in this book, and you base that on the last few chapters. It doesn't work that way. You can't truly understand anything of the last chapter of anything, not our world, our God, a person, or a book, without looking at the beginning, too.

You have a thorough understanding of the last chapters, but it is missing a lot of pieces because you are not accepting the bulk of scripture. You know of the changes Christ made, but by not knowing what Christ changed or why you are not understanding.

 

[nathan3]

People use this phrase to actually say teaching God's own words are bad. That is twisting of scripture. If that was the case, then call me that too, because I wont toss out God's words, whatever P.C smear word is dreamed up by people not familiar with the Bible.

 

[Grandpa]

Wrath does not apply to the sons of God. The bible says God will discipline.


.

Wrath does not apply to the sons of God. That is a true statement.

Galatians 3:24-26
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

Grandpa, I'm trying to be respectful, but when you tell me my "work is dirty rags" and say things like "I thought I already told you" -I don't feel respected back, let alone loved, are we not siblings?

I do not desire to be under the law, the law kills...because my actions, which were evil according to the law, killed me, I was able to receive new life from Christ.

Have you never had to put effort towards doing what is right or not doing what is wrong? Did you have to abandon Christ for that? Or was he chastening you?

Maybe that's it...are you guys disinclined to receive correction? Know you not that a loving father disciplines his children? Why would he discipline us if he didn't want us to do or not do something?

Yes, the law is no longer where we get righteousness, because Christ in us is righteous. That doesn't mean we stop repenting when we sin, and it certainly doesn't mean that trying not to sin is a rejection of Christ.

The problem in Jesus' day was that religious leaders were making up extra stuff and saying it was equal to the law of God, and because it was a theocracy they got away with it, like the RCC used to do and still does in some places (like vatican city). We can see that in the scripture above with the mud made from spit.

The people couldn't just go to God and ask him what he meant by "labor", so they went to the Rabbi's who were glad to give them a list of things not to do. Another example is the disciples who ate kernels of wheat on the Sabbath, the pharisees were miffed because the disciples rubbed the wheat in their hands to get the plant material off, and that rubbing was considered by the pharisees to be labor. Jesus asked them about the time David and his men ate the show bread. God wanted the show bread there, but not badly enough for someone to starve to death. We have to know that we can't be legalistic about it or someone could get hurt. We also have to know, that if we throw out the law, people will get hurt.

I am not perfect. I am weak in fact, but in my weakness then I am strong. Would Christ who lives in me, and is my very breath, not follow the law he wrote, in the Spirit that he is One in with the Father? We are yoked together with Christ, so we will follow what laws he wills us to. God is making you new. If you can't handle the food law thing right now, chances are God is working on something else in your heart that's more important. We are all being grown up by the Lord.

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

I've seen people get really messed up with this twisting of scripture to mean "the law is just and points to goodness but we can't follow it and shouldn't try" and they say things like, "well I have peace to do this". I've had two different people who acted like upstanding Godly men, who actually told me they didn't think a marriage ceremony was necessary, "who needs the legalistic way to go about it when God will make us one when we come together, if we stay united is that not marriage? I have peace to do that" I was like, so basically you want to fornicate for a while, and the men both times were like, "no I just think marriage was a Jewish custom that we aren't really bound to. We are married the minute we have sex" and that was the last time I spoke to either of them.

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

When Jesus said the Shema and love your neighbor could sum up the law, he didn't mean the love that you feel, he meant the love that you DO with all your heart, soul and strength.

He even defined what that would look like....we are his disciples who love him, and those who love him will obey him.

How do we know what the commands are? Well, since he quoted the Torah, reading the OT would be a good idea.

And if you don't like what you find, all I ask is that you don't call me names if I do, but really on second thought, please call me names for loving my Lord, your persecution will bless me. =P

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa, I'm trying to be respectful, but when you tell me my "work is dirty rags" and say things like "I thought I already told you" -I don't feel respected back, let alone loved, are we not siblings?

You're not trying very hard. You don't seem like you are unable to understand simple concepts. And yet you are pretending to.

Or maybe you have a different idea of what respect is than I do.

Have you never had to put effort towards doing what is right or not doing what is wrong? Did you have to abandon Christ for that? Or was he chastening you?

Maybe that's it...are you guys disinclined to receive correction? Know you not that a loving father disciplines his children? Why would he discipline us if he didn't want us to do or not do something?

Yes. I put forth a stupendous amount of effort towards being right with God. In the end it wasn't enough. I had to rely on Christ.

The problem in Jesus' day was that religious leaders were making up extra stuff and saying it was equal to the law of God, and because it was a theocracy they got away with it, like the RCC used to do and still does in some places (like vatican city). We can see that in the scripture above with the mud made from spit.

That wasn't the problem. And its still not the problem.

The problem is that people think they keep the law by their own strength and will. Same today as then.

I am not perfect. I am weak in fact, but in my weakness then I am strong. Would Christ who lives in me, and is my very breath, not follow the law he wrote, in the Spirit that he is One in with the Father? We are yoked together with Christ, so we will follow what laws he wills us to. God is making you new. If you can't handle the food law thing right now, chances are God is working on something else in your heart that's more important. We are all being grown up by the Lord.

Food law? Is there some extra righteousness that we recieve, in addition to Christ, because of food law?

Galatians 5:16-18
[SUP]16 [/SUP]This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

How can a person walk in the spirit if they are busy trying to get their flesh to obey spiritual laws that they have mistakenly interpreted into laws for the flesh???



Romans 8:3-8
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Showing someone what Christ does for us and in us is a show of love and respect, even if it seems to go against your cherished jewish rituals. Please not the word seems. None of what Christ does for us and in us goes against any of the jewish rituals. If only you could see it.