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A
atwhatcost
Guest
It's only a problem when they're not right. They are right almost half the time.
Again, you ignore the first "problem." God. You keep skirting around the issue at hand, the One you ignore, the One you think we won't notice. That you ignore doesn't mean we aren't noticing.
E
elf3
Guest
As I have stated before there may be many "sects" of the church but there is only one true Church in Christ. There may be "gray" areas in these "sects" which we differ in but when it comes to the true Church in Christ there is no "gray" area. Either you are in Christ or you aren't in Christ. If we cannot see this black and white "doctrine" then we truly need to rethink our faith in Christ. Is my faith or your faith dependant upon predestination? Is my faith or your faith dependant upon water baptism? Is my faith or your faith dependant upon taking communion? Or, is my faith or your faith dependant upon the work of Christ alone? Who saved you? Did your baptism by water, your understanding of predestination or your taking communion save you? Or, did what Jesus did save you? If you actually say that anything besides or added to the work of Christ saved you then you have now added your work or your belief to what Christ did on the cross to your salvation. That then means that you can actually save yourself outside of Christ by something you did or believe. I am sorry but Christ and Christ alone can save you from your sins. There are many true Christians in every "sect" of the Christian church and if you truly want to argue this then take it up with God not anyone else because only God is Sovereign and only God can forgive sins through complete and total faith in Jesus. It is faith that saves and every "sect" has those who have that complete faith in Jesus.
I have serious problems with people who say that because I basically follow reformed theology that I am not a "true Christian". My faith is deeply rooted in Christ. My statement of faith begins with....Jesus first!
I have serious problems with people who say that because I basically follow reformed theology that I am not a "true Christian". My faith is deeply rooted in Christ. My statement of faith begins with....Jesus first!
Y
YuriBrown1234567
Guest
"Church, not churches" says all for me, for all who believe the Son of God, the Only Begotten, are members of His Body with Him as the Head. There is no denomination, just the same faith as did have Abraham, as taught by Jesus Christ, amen.
Because more people drag a belief they have concerning reality in to the Bible more than any other religion,but the devil tries to pervert Christianity any way he can.
The Roman Empire dragged the occult in to the Bible and you have the Roman Catholic Chrurch.
Joseph Smith dragged his belief in to the Bible and you have the Mormon Church.
You have Alice Bailey that dragged the occult in to the Bible,and you have the new age movement,their interpretaion of Christianity,which appears to be the most dangerous of all.
And so forth.People drag a belief they have in to Bible and all the different people doing that will result in different interpretations of the Bible,and sects.
The new age movement believe all religions are valid for spiritual enlightment,and they will mix and match what they like from the religions in whatever precentage they mix and match them,so you can imagine how many different beliefs there would be from that,but to them it is all valid,and nobody's religion better than the other,but whatever is individual preference,but they will all add Christianity to it,because of Alice Bailey,the biggest prophet of the new age movement.
The Roman Empire dragged the occult in to the Bible and you have the Roman Catholic Chrurch.
Joseph Smith dragged his belief in to the Bible and you have the Mormon Church.
You have Alice Bailey that dragged the occult in to the Bible,and you have the new age movement,their interpretaion of Christianity,which appears to be the most dangerous of all.
And so forth.People drag a belief they have in to Bible and all the different people doing that will result in different interpretations of the Bible,and sects.
The new age movement believe all religions are valid for spiritual enlightment,and they will mix and match what they like from the religions in whatever precentage they mix and match them,so you can imagine how many different beliefs there would be from that,but to them it is all valid,and nobody's religion better than the other,but whatever is individual preference,but they will all add Christianity to it,because of Alice Bailey,the biggest prophet of the new age movement.
T
thebesttrees
Guest
What would have happened if Christ had written a will before He ascended? In this will He would have specified His successor, the one person who is SOLELY responsible for the interpretation of His teachings, the one person that everyone else has to turn to in case of difficulties understanding the teachings. This person has the final say in all matters of interpretation of the Word. Moreover, Christ would include instructions as to how the chain of succession should continue in very unequivocal and clear language. Copies of this will were to be made and distributed everywhere, each sealed or signed in His own hand.
Certainly He could have done this in order to prevent divisions among His followers. I wonder why He did not.
Certainly He could have done this in order to prevent divisions among His followers. I wonder why He did not.
K
KennethC
Guest
Actually He did but a lot seem to overlook this or try and explain it away, for Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes He will guide us in all truth.
Some take and instead place their trust on other men and their writings first before they let the Holy Spirit give them this, which is why there are so many different interpretations. People choice to use private renderings of the bible rather then rely on God's Holy Spirit to bring them this knowledge.
K
KennethC
Guest
Yes the only way the word church should be used in the plural form is with the lower case "c" which means buildings; churches.
With the capital "C" there is only one Church, and that is the body of believers all around the world, not the Catholic denomination alone as falsely be passed for years.
That would not cause everybody to have the same interpretation,because if they rejected Christ and what He said while on earth,especially when Christ said the miracles that He does testifies that He is the Christ,many people would reject that person,and say he is not from God.
The only way all people would believe in the same interpretation,is if God took upon Himself a human body,and forced everybody to abide by the same interpretation,or else pay the consequence there and then.
That will not happen because however Jesus showed love when He was on earth,is the same love that applies now,and as long as we are under grace,and to not fight physically for the kingdom of God,but must be done in a peaceful manner,and not force,then everybody will not have the same interpretation.
The only way everybody will have the same interpretation is if it is a fear factor that they cannot deny if they do not obey that interpretation,which the Roman Catholic Church tried,but people could escape the Roman Catholic Church,but if God were on earth forcing people to obey people could not escape that,but God will not do that so everybody will not have the same interpretation.
Even some people of the Roman Catholic Church,in which the Pope claims to be head of the Church,does not agree with everything he says.
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K
KennethC
Guest
Does the scriptures of God in the bible say we are to stick to sound doctrine multiple times ???
Also does it also show any deviation from that sound doctrine of the gospel of Christ to preach another version then what was given, teach another gospel, or preach another Christ that that person will be accursed/condemned ???
T
thebesttrees
Guest
Than you for your guidance. When considering the Holy Spirit to be the successor left by our Lord after His ascension, there are several points to bear in mind:
1. Our knowledge is partial and will be done away with at the coming of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 13 is very specific about this. Therefore ALL TRUTH is to be taken relatively and not absolutely.
1 Corinthians 13:12 ....Now I know in part; then I shall know fully....
2. There is no reason to believe that some people cannot fake receiving the Holy Spirit while all the time pushing their own agenda contrary to the teachings of the Bible.
3. Some might even be very sincere in their interpretation but that understanding could be coming from their brain instead of the Holy Spirit.
4. In instances where the Church has to deal with people, governments and other entities who are not Christians and thus do not believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, the existence of such a focal person and sole representative as stipulated in the will would have many obvious advantages.
5. Obviously divisions exist now, which are completely due to the shortcomings of the believers, and I would like to put the heavier burden of responsibility on selfish leaders who have ignored 1 Corinthians 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Imagine if all were for love and not for their own interpretation of the Word and would simply wait for the coming of the Lord to give them the full understanding? We would not have the divisions we have now.
The Lord never wrote a will and for the reasons I have stated above, there must have been a reason. Was He capable of doing it? Yes, of course. But He decided not to do it and I would like to explore the why.
Amen Kenneth you took the words out of my mouth. The legacy is the Spirit of God, and His peace...and joy...and many more things besides.
Unity is so effortless in the Holy Spirit: we fall in step, when one suffers we all suffer, we are willing to have all things in common, we find it easy to love each other and to share tenderly from the heart.
Sounds like any denomination you know?
Nor me.
K
KennethC
Guest
This is why we are in the falling away because to many itching ears doctrines are going around making the narrow road through Christ into a broad road.
I remember saying this just the other day how much they are turning the gospel into a easy-believism gospel that allows everyday lewdness to continue in their lives. There is absolutely no victory over sin by the Holy Spirit taught in some of these doctrines going around.
To my knowledge a will is only written by someone before the event of their death. The whole point of the Gospel is that Jesus, God manifest in the flesh, is not dead, but risen in power.
Why would anyone fake receiving the Holy Spirit? If they wanted to push an agenda contrary to the teaching of the Bible, it would be better from their point of view to suggest the Holy Spirit is not given any more.
When you are born again, you are a new creation. Everything changes. It is not about intellect but about the Lord Jesus Christ, and how He made a way for us to be with Him in spite of the sins we constantly do as humans. We enter into His forgiveness by grace, through faith, trusting that His death on the cross was the total payment and punishment for our personal sin. When we do this we are washed clean of all our sin and given the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, as promised, Who leads us into all truth.
If we have sincerely and humbly trusted that Christ died for us to make us free, we have all we need in His Spirit to help us understand what God requires of us as His child. If we never read another book besides the Bible, in the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we would not in any way fall short in understanding.
I agree. How can there be any victory over sin if our gospel does not include receiving the power over it, i.e. the Holy Spirit?
Having said that, we also have received that eternal comfort which assures us that Jesus being God manifest in the flesh, is well aware how we will let Him down as His disciples...and STILL He died for us.
While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly.
So awesome!
This site explains a lot of it. There's very little variation in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Most of the various doctrinal positions and government structures came about in the Protestant branch, which allowed for greater freedom of thought and expression. Over the centuries different movements emphasized different viewpoints and that resulted in different denominations.
T
thebesttrees
Guest
Having read through (most of) the last five pages, I notice that most of the comments in response to Zoe's question suggest that the multiplicity of sects, groups or denominations is a bad thing with bad foundations. Is that always the case?
Consider for a moment the Lutheran church... it was formed by believers who followed Luther after he separated himself from the Catholic church. He received the revelations of justification by faith and the sufficiency of Scripture. Those are good things.
Or the Wesleyan/Methodist church(es)... submission and dedication to a cause which exceeds that of most pastors today;
Or the Presbyterian... service to the poor combined with a different yet biblically-valid model of church leadership;
Or Baptist... full immersion;
Or Pentecostal: the active infilling of the Holy Spirit with external evidence thereof;
Or Charismatic: ongoing expression of the gifts of the Spirit;
etc.
Granted, there are many groups. Granted, some groups have splintered for lesser reasons. Granted, some groups think others are out-to-lunch. Granted, there may actually be some groups which are out-to-lunch. However, to broad-brush the issue by saying it's fundamentally because of man's sinfulness seems a little shortsighted. Frankly, I believe that God was involved in at least some of the movements.
Perhaps a different way of looking at it is that different people at different times have sensed the Spirit emphasizing certain aspects of faith and practice, and walked in that emphasis with the desire to follow the Spirit. Maybe some people build where they should only camp, maybe some feel that their revelation is sufficient. There have been many God-fearing, knowledgeable, saved, intelligent, well-meaning people who have done their best to live out their faith and systemize it to help others to do the same. Do all of them get it right? No, but calling them all sinful for trying without knowing each story is simply judgmental.
It is Christ's Church (yes, only one!), and He will iron out every wrinkle and remove every blot. I wonder if we collectively need to address the roots of our own negative attitudes so that we aren't perpetuating the very problem we so eloquently decry.
Consider for a moment the Lutheran church... it was formed by believers who followed Luther after he separated himself from the Catholic church. He received the revelations of justification by faith and the sufficiency of Scripture. Those are good things.
Or the Wesleyan/Methodist church(es)... submission and dedication to a cause which exceeds that of most pastors today;
Or the Presbyterian... service to the poor combined with a different yet biblically-valid model of church leadership;
Or Baptist... full immersion;
Or Pentecostal: the active infilling of the Holy Spirit with external evidence thereof;
Or Charismatic: ongoing expression of the gifts of the Spirit;
etc.
Granted, there are many groups. Granted, some groups have splintered for lesser reasons. Granted, some groups think others are out-to-lunch. Granted, there may actually be some groups which are out-to-lunch. However, to broad-brush the issue by saying it's fundamentally because of man's sinfulness seems a little shortsighted. Frankly, I believe that God was involved in at least some of the movements.
Perhaps a different way of looking at it is that different people at different times have sensed the Spirit emphasizing certain aspects of faith and practice, and walked in that emphasis with the desire to follow the Spirit. Maybe some people build where they should only camp, maybe some feel that their revelation is sufficient. There have been many God-fearing, knowledgeable, saved, intelligent, well-meaning people who have done their best to live out their faith and systemize it to help others to do the same. Do all of them get it right? No, but calling them all sinful for trying without knowing each story is simply judgmental.
It is Christ's Church (yes, only one!), and He will iron out every wrinkle and remove every blot. I wonder if we collectively need to address the roots of our own negative attitudes so that we aren't perpetuating the very problem we so eloquently decry.