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Bryancampbell
Guest
Exactly, Satan was Lucifer the angel of God, he can't be the originator of something he himself fell into...
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Exactly, Satan was Lucifer the angel of God, he can't be the originator of something he himself fell into...
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kennyjames
Guest
I can simplify this, Isaiah 45,7 look for the deeper meaning, Jesus spoke in parables a lot, (like father/like son)??? he created evil by creating (satin) who betrayed God by rebelling!!?????????????????????????? kennyjames/kenj
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richie_2uk
Guest
Is God really the one who created evil? To answer the question we must first look at how the word for evil, "rah," is used in the Bible, examine the context of the Isaiah 45:7 passage, and look at other passages on the same subject.
First of all, the Hebrew word for evil, "rah," is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked," "bad," "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," "misery," and "trouble." So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV.
Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.
Also, take note that Isaiah is presenting contrasts. He speaks of "light" and "darkness," "well being" and "calamity." The word "well-being" in the Hebrew is the word for 'peace,' "Shalome." So, in the context, we are seeing two sets of opposites: Light and dark, peace and non-peace, or well being and calamity. The "evil" that is spoken of is not ontological evil, but the evil experienced by people in the form of calamity.
From the above two verses (Exodus 4:11; Amos 3:6) we can see that the Lord is involved in calamity and problems in the earthly realm. Exodus 4:11 is speaking of human frailty and Amos 3:6 is speaking of woes in a city. It is not a moral evil that God brings, but calamity and distress upon people.
Of course, this raises other questions of why God would do such a thing, which I won't cover here. But, we can trust that whatever God does is just and is used for teaching, guiding, and disciplining His people.
Third, there are other verses that clearly show that God is pure and that He cannot approve of evil.
We can see that the Bible teaches that God is pure and does not approve of evil, that the word "rah" (evil) in Hebrew can mean many things, and that contextually the verse is speaking of calamity and distress. Therefore, God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster or calamity.
First of all, the Hebrew word for evil, "rah," is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked," "bad," "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," "misery," and "trouble." So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV.
Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:5-7).
Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example,- "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (Exodus 4:11).
- "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6).
Also, take note that Isaiah is presenting contrasts. He speaks of "light" and "darkness," "well being" and "calamity." The word "well-being" in the Hebrew is the word for 'peace,' "Shalome." So, in the context, we are seeing two sets of opposites: Light and dark, peace and non-peace, or well being and calamity. The "evil" that is spoken of is not ontological evil, but the evil experienced by people in the form of calamity.
From the above two verses (Exodus 4:11; Amos 3:6) we can see that the Lord is involved in calamity and problems in the earthly realm. Exodus 4:11 is speaking of human frailty and Amos 3:6 is speaking of woes in a city. It is not a moral evil that God brings, but calamity and distress upon people.
Of course, this raises other questions of why God would do such a thing, which I won't cover here. But, we can trust that whatever God does is just and is used for teaching, guiding, and disciplining His people.
Third, there are other verses that clearly show that God is pure and that He cannot approve of evil.
- “The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He," (Deut. 32:4).
- "Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor," (Hab. 1:13).
We can see that the Bible teaches that God is pure and does not approve of evil, that the word "rah" (evil) in Hebrew can mean many things, and that contextually the verse is speaking of calamity and distress. Therefore, God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster or calamity.
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Bryancampbell
Guest
The real question we should be asking is, where did sin originate?
As we see sin and evil came after the things God made, that means when nothing was created only God was there.
in genesis God calls His creation good and pleasing. So the question again is, where did evil originate?
It originated when God created goodness. For what is good if bad didn't exist? Then it wouldn't be called good unless there is a ungood.
God didn't create evil, evil came after God created. It's disobedience.
As we see sin and evil came after the things God made, that means when nothing was created only God was there.
in genesis God calls His creation good and pleasing. So the question again is, where did evil originate?
It originated when God created goodness. For what is good if bad didn't exist? Then it wouldn't be called good unless there is a ungood.
God didn't create evil, evil came after God created. It's disobedience.
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kennyjames
Guest
he created evil in fact, Isaiah 45,7 he created evil when he created (satin) who betrayed the trust of GOD KENNYJAMES/KENJ
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kennyjames
Guest
hi tomh: I told you I was still going on to research God creating evil. about 3:30 this morning I landed on a site that recited a parable then it dawned on me how Jesus spoke many parables. then I got to thinking (like father/like son???) could Isaiah 45,7 be a parable/medafore (oh well) you get my drift.( I think so!!) so when God said (I) create evil he is actually saying (I) created (satin) and you know the rest of the story. signed:kenj/kennyjames thany you tomh.
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cfultz3
Guest
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cfultz3
Guest
I have answered this before for someone and hope by me posting the same reply that it can help others to see that God does not have a shadow of darkness in Him. Sorry for its length....
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
It is said that God created darkness and evil and that thought is taken from the verse above. But, notice that it, as the word 'and' implies in both cases, is a part of a comparison and then that clause is part of another clause. We simply cannot pull 2 words out of a 18 word sentence and make a conclusive statement without having considered the rest of at least that particular verse.
Example: Scripture says that there is no God. If I use the extraction method mentioned above, then I would be absolutely correct and could not at all be debated on this matter, because the word of God has said it and it is to be believed. If I would go out and declare this illogical statement, I would be made the fool.
Psa 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.
Psa 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.
In the arena of fairness, we have to at least consider the whole verse. This 'create darkness/evil' is the absolute opposite of 'Light and peace'. We understand from the Creation record that God indeed created the Light, but that the darkness was already there. And we learn from Jesus that we, the saints, are to walk in this Light, as oppose to walking in that Darkness. We also understand that these are the two states a man is given by God for him to walk about in, for him to make a choice by his freewill. If we understand that the opposite of good is evil, then this 'create evil', as compared to 'peace', must obviously mean 'calamity'. We also understand from Scripture that the opposite of love is hate, of joy is sadness, on and on we are given opposing sides. But, at no other place is it said that God created darkness and evil, so we must give full consideration on this one verse so that we do not conclude that God is a god of darkness and evil.
Now, we come to 'peace' and its opposite 'evil'. If we understand that the opposite of peace is calamity, inasmuch as the Darkness is the opposite of the Light, then we should come to a more clearer understanding as to what is meant by 'evil' as used in this verse. Before we come to a conclusion on this verse, let us first take several things into consideration.
Those who come to the conclusion that God created evil sometimes use two other verses to verify what they say. Namely, Amos 3:6 and Lamentations 3:38. So, let us start there and see what they say. From these verses we see that the Lord is involved in calamities in the earthly realm, but never is He is the cause of the moral evilness which caused Him to bring the calamity upon the wickedness of the wicked.
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (calamity: NASB)(disaster: NIV) Something to ponder on: does moral evilness happen to a city or does a calamity happen to a city?
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?(ill: NASB)(calamities: NIV)The KJV seems to suggest that God both speaks good and evil. But, if we look at verses 33-36, we see that God does not approve of evil and if we look at verse 39, we see that God punishes one for sins. So what is really being said? We only have to go to verses 32-33 to see that the 'evil' being spoken about in this verse is nothing more than that 'grief' that was of necessity afflicted because of sin.
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?(ill: NASB)(calamities: NIV)The KJV seems to suggest that God both speaks good and evil. But, if we look at verses 33-36, we see that God does not approve of evil and if we look at verse 39, we see that God punishes one for sins. So what is really being said? We only have to go to verses 32-33 to see that the 'evil' being spoken about in this verse is nothing more than that 'grief' that was of necessity afflicted because of sin.
We see from both of these verses that the word 'evil' simply implies 'calamity' and not moral evilness. And once we understand that God is not the author of evil, we then see a God who is a Rewarder of both good and bad behavior and therefore, the One who brings judgment and calamity on those who rebel, and not One who created evil so that He could punish those doing what is claimed of having been created by Him. From Scripture, we see that God takes no pleasure in wickedness, no evil dwells in God (Psa 5:4), does not tempt anyone with evil and cannot be tempt with the same (Jam 1:13), will bring every act to judgment, to see if it is good or evil (Ecc 12:14), and that God appointed rulers and authority as avengers who bring wrath on the one who practice evil (Rom 13:4). If God judges evil, and if it is true that He created evil, then would He not also have to judge Himself, seeing that He is the source of evil? For God to have created evil would mean that evil dwells in God, inasmuch as it is said that one is known by what comes out of him and if evil was created by Him, then He must have had evil in Him. Yet, we are told that no evil dwells in God. And if no evil dwells in God, then we must find the harmony in Scripture. Either God has evil in Him, in that He created evil, or rather, He permits, even brings calamities on the wicked. We are told that God's eyes are too pure to even behold evil and that He cannot even look towards inequity (Hab 1:13), and these being qualities of only His eyes, how much more truer is it that He is without iniquity (Det 32:4)and not the one who created moral evilness.
Now, to get back to the usage of words found in KJV. Anyone who is serious or is becoming serious in his studies will soon find out that contextual usage of words is to be taken into consideration. Consider the flexibility of the following words:
The term "God" is used to refer to the divine Being (Jn 1:1), but at the same time, it is used to describe an idol of worship voided of God's essence (1 Cor 8:4-6). Another place, it is said that none is righteous (Rom 3:10), but yet, Joseph was righteous (Mt 1:19). And yet again, it is said that it is wrong to judge (Mt 7:1), but we are to judge (Jn 7:24). Another place, one cannot be justified by works (Eph 2:9), yet justification is obtained by works. (Jas 2:24)
Now, let us consider the usage of the word 'evil' and how context is important.
The Hebrew word for evil is 'ra’,which is derived from a root meaning “to spoil” or “to break in pieces.” It occurs 664 times in the KJV. 448 times it is translated as 'evil(s)'. The other 216 times it is translated as, 'wicked(ness)(ly)', 'hurt (ful)', 'mischief(s)(vous)', 'bad', 'sore', 'trouble', 'ill', 'affliction(s)', 'harm', 'adversity(ies)', 'grievous', 'naught', 'noisome', 'sad', 'calamities', 'displease(d)(sure)', 'distress'.....about 15 more different words.
In reference to sinful activities: Idol worship is characterized as evil (Eze 20:39, 43-44), even evil thoughts which produce ungodly actions is evil (Mk 7:21-23).
It can also be used to reference a disaster of some sort. In Isa 47:10-11, in speaking about the punishment that would be visited upon Israel for her wickedness, it is said that that evil would be the mischief of the desolation which was to come upon them by the Babylonian captivity (Jer 18:8). The same way 'evil' was used by Amos in speaking about that 'evil day' which was the eventual doom of the Northern Kingdom of Israel.
In reference to sinful activities: Idol worship is characterized as evil (Eze 20:39, 43-44), even evil thoughts which produce ungodly actions is evil (Mk 7:21-23).
It can also be used to reference a disaster of some sort. In Isa 47:10-11, in speaking about the punishment that would be visited upon Israel for her wickedness, it is said that that evil would be the mischief of the desolation which was to come upon them by the Babylonian captivity (Jer 18:8). The same way 'evil' was used by Amos in speaking about that 'evil day' which was the eventual doom of the Northern Kingdom of Israel.
Let us return to Isaiah 47 and take into consideration the context. The first thing to notice is that God is speaking of who He is and what He does. That is, He did not create darkness (it was already there and the reason why He made the light) nor evil (the absence of goodness and the reason why all He did was 'good', 'very good') in His creation act (nowhere will you find that either were created except here, so take it into consideration that our God is not the creator of darkness and evil, but all He did was in opposition to what was already there). But, inasmuch as He forms light (joyous moments), and permits (to let be (create)) darkness (grievous moments), He also brings peace (an essence of light) and permits calamity (an essence of darkness). We are told that God is Love. And if hate is an essence of the darkness and is therefore the opposite of love, then in opposition to that, everything God created was 'good', 'very good'. Through His creation, He brings forth righteousness and it works together to bring forth salvation. It is the LORD who has done this, He has shinned a light in the darkness, He has brought forth righteousness to dispel those things which are the essence of darkness. Indeed, it is the Lord who has brought fourth goodness since that darkness was void of it.
Evil is simply the absence of the goodness which originated from God. Darkness is evil because God is not there, but is in the Light and is the Light. Where there is an absence of an attribute pertaining to God (love, holiness, light, peace, etc...) there exist the opposite (hate, demonic, darkness, calamity, etc...). If God removes the Light, then there the Darkness is. If God removes His hand, then there calamity is. Listen: when God removes His Spirit, the Antichrist, who dwells in the Darkness, will be revealed (shown (he is there now waiting for the Light to be taken away)). But for now, he is hidden by the Light.
I repeat, darkness and evil was not created, but is a state which lacks that which is of God. In all instances where it is implied that God created darkness and evil, the Light was already there from creation, but was removed and darkness and evil was allowed to be. So, when God said that He created Darkness and evil, He is saying that He has removed the goodness (Light and peace) which are from Him and allowed that darkness and evil to be (uncovered). Even when He cursed Adam and Eve, He removed His presence and all of creation was cut off from the Light and peace. And it took the death of God Himself to bring us back to that goodness (Light and peace).
The Conclusion of It All,
God sometimes remove that which is from Him (Light and peace) and by such, that which stands essentially opposing (Darkness and evil) is allowed its existence to be known, allowed 'to be', created. There was darkness upon the face of the Earth and God said, 'Let there be Light' and He saw the Light that it was good. And God looked upon His creation and said that it was very good.
And the story of Job tells us what happens when God removes His hand of peace, nothing but calamity upon calamity and still yet, more calamities brought on by the darkness and its lack of goodness.
Let it be said that God is good and there is no shadow of darkness in Him. No, none at all!!!
Our God is the Creator of the goodness which shines the Light in the Darkness.
Peace be with you, in the beginning GOD created everything and called it Himself as good. But lucifer and man practiced otherwise because of a free will and became evil themselves opposing GOD's good and HIS good standards, only revealed to us through HIS vessel (CHRIST) in the inspired Holy Bible. That is why one day HE is going to destroy all of them using HIS SON and the saints.
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HEknowsme
Guest
Lamentation for the King of Tyre Ezekiel 28:11-19
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [SUP]12 [/SUP]“Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:
“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”
ISAISH 55 :7-9
…7Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. 8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.…
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [SUP]12 [/SUP]“Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:
“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”
ISAISH 55 :7-9
…7Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. 8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.…
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Sanashankar
Guest
To appreciate Good or Joy or whatever is opposite to evil.
Good and Evil comes from the same source...."the tree of Good and evil"
Evil is good when it is used by God for his purpose. But if human beings take it in hand, it becomes "sin". We do not have the capacity to use evil for Good, only God does.
God bless u
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Bryancampbell
Guest
God cannot create evil, but God does find a way to manipulate it for good, like the wicked religious leaders against Jesus. Though the devil tried to destroy Him, it was actually written for Him to face those trials and face the penalty that would bring us salvation and confirmed by His resurrection. But everything that comes from God is good.
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Adinah
Guest
Well actually, sin was found in Lucifer. It is said that He was good when God created Him, perfect in all his ways, and then evil was found in him. So evil obviously already existed. It seems clear to me that we're trying to define everything from the standpoint that when the Bible says God created everything in heaven and in the earth, there never was anything before that, nothing whatsoever. We even think of "evil" as something to be created, as if it's a thing or even an entity. Evil is that which corrupts, or corruption. We know nothing more about it than that. We know that when it was said to enter this world, it corrupted this world. Death began as did disease, etc. We've got to get out of this limited mindset that we can understand everything about God and our world and creation as if we're still in the middle ages. We've simply go to realize there are many truths about God and the universe we're just plain not going to understand until He comes back.
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Bryancampbell
Guest
My friend you have an enlightened understanding in the first part of your statement! I tried telling others the same. Lucifer cannot be God's enemy for he use to be on God's side before sin corrupted him. So evil or sin is a force driven into existence by a mystery. How far do we know about it? We don't. I have thought about such things. If God is creator of good then sin must be His creation's shadow. See where I am getting at? God knew if He created something beautiful in the light, it will cast a shadow. Sin or how it is defined: disobedience. I believe, it may even be wrong, that sin was not a created thing in God's plan, but yet it came into existence after God created everything. Then when law came, it boasted in strength. U see?
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Bryancampbell
Guest
Satan isn't God's strongest enemy...correct myself, because the devil is an enemy of God but not the strongest compared to evil
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Adinah
Guest
No offense, BryanCampbell, but I wasn't saying that. Again, I was saying that corruption is something that existed before the creation of the world (in my opinion). Satan was perfect when he was created, yes, but for whatever reason he became corrupt. What I was saying I believe our problem is is that we think corruption must have either been a created thing, or something that came about by way of creation. But there's your problem right there, thinking that everything has to fit into the concept that nothing existed but God before the creation of the world. I personally don't believe the Bible tells us that. I just think the Bible tells us OUR story. I'm not trying to put forth a theory. If anything, I'm putting forth the concept that we just plain don't know because there's far more to this story than we can possibly understand at this point in time.
So sure don't be offended. We all can only speculate on these things.
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Bryancampbell
Guest
Think of it like this my friend. You have a lamp, lets say God's goodness is like a lamp with a bulb and He is the source of its power. Now imagine everything around it is pitch black. Now God before He created, there wasn't good or evil right? He was there bending time and space. Now imagine Him turning on the light which represents the goodness that shines on His creation, everything in the room will cast a shadow because of the Light. God took the risk of His creation suffering sin, but made a way out. Fill the room with light all around, then there will be no shadow. Christ is our light
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NiceneCreed
Guest
I don't believe God created evil. If I remember correctly, I believe God created all things good, even Satan and his angels who fell with him were originally good. Sin is rebellion against God's will and a perversion of creation itself. So while God did create all that is in existence, evil is nothing more than deliberate disobedience to God and His will for us, and it is the antithesis of God's nature.
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NiceneCreed
Guest
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Bryancampbell
Guest
Neither is it man's doctrine, because it wouldn't contradict but enhances our speculating thoughts