Why did Noah curse his grandson before God?

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Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#21
that is what the very text says LOl Noah made wine got drunk and was sleep and his grandson came in saw him naked told his brothers who went in and covered him. It then says when Noah woke up he cursed his grandson for what he did. I guess looking at an elderly relative naked and telling others what you saw is to you is a godly thing? Absolutely it was disrespect.
Amen that’s exactly what it says and what he did rather than accidentally seeing what he saw and quickly looking away and covering him so no one else saw this great shame of
Him passed out drunk and naked

instead he went and spread the gossip about Noah to His brothers who quickly went and purposely didn’t see it and covered over tbier fathers transgression to preserve what dignity he had left. So
No One else saw his shameful
Moment

ultimately two brothers were looking out for Noah they had his back , they didn’t judge or mock or spread news about his shame , they did what love does and covered over his shame and moment of weakness and did what he needed done to be covered and left alone until he woke
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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#22
.
Years ago my dad got totally wasted from drinking too much vodka mixed
with orange juice. He got up in the middle of the night and went downstairs
to vomit from the front porch.

My sister's bedroom adjoined the porch with double-glass doors and when
she heard dad losing it outside she looked to see. Well dad liked to sleep in
the nude and there he was.

Next day my sister told me all about it and took delight in mocking my
dad's condition. I never told him that my sister blabbed but can you just
imagine how humiliated my dad would've been had he known my sister was
spying on him in the nude and then shot her mouth off about it to me?

Eph 6:1-3 . . Honor your father and mother-- which is the first
commandment with a promise --that it may go well with you and that you
may enjoy long life on the earth.

The promise doesn't guarantee long life; it promises that, should you
perchance survive to a ripe old age, they'll be good years. In other words;
though a demon seed may live long and prosper, that doesn't necessarily
mean they'll have a pleasant time of it. Things like happiness, peace, love,
understanding, and contentment may end up eluding them every step of the
way.
_
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
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#23
Gen_9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.

Seems a bit odd that we are told here that Ham is the father of Canaan. IMO this tells me something important about Canaan is going to be revealed.

Gen 9:19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Again, we are told that Ham is the father of Canaan. Someone uncovered Noah in verse 21, then someone, Ham, saw it. He told his brothers.


Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

The brothers walked backwards so they would not see what Ham saw. Why didn't Ham do this? I believe he was traumatized by what he saw and his brothers were so afraid of seeing it as well that they walked backwards to cover this nakedness.

Keep in mind what uncovering a man's nakedness actually means:

Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.


K&D commentary on the OT

"The laws against incest are introduced in Lev_18:6 with the general prohibition, descriptive of the nature of this sin, “None of you shall approach to any flesh of his flesh, to uncover nakedness.” The difference between flesh, and flesh, is involved in obscurity, as both words are used in connection with edible flesh (see the Lexicons). “Flesh of his flesh” is a flesh that is of his own flesh, belongs to the same flesh as himself (Gen_2:24), and is applied to a blood-relation, blood-relationship being called (or flesh-kindred) in Hebrew (Lev_18:17). Sexual intercourse is called uncovering the nakedness of another (Eze_16:36; Eze_23:18). The prohibition relates to both married and unmarried intercourse, though the reference is chiefly to the former (see Lev_18:18; Lev_20:14, Lev_20:17, Lev_20:21). Intercourse is forbidden (1) with a mother, (2) with a step-mother, (3) with a sister or half-sister, (4) with a granddaughter, the daughter of either son or daughter, (5) with the daughter of a step-mother, (6) with an aunt, the sister of either father or mother, (7) with the wife of an uncle on the father's side, (8) with a daughter-in-law, (9) with a sister-in-law, or brother's wife, (10) with a woman and her daughter, or a woman and her granddaughter, and (11) with two sisters at the same time."



Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

In the Hebrew this can also mean "younger grandson" who would be Canaan.


Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.


For committing this evil act, Canaan is rightly cursed. Ham is one of the victims here, not a guilty party. Ham is the father of the evil-doer, Canaan.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,177
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#26
Canaan wasnt born yet.........
on the ot the seed and bloodline the descendants is how blessings were shown to people. And also curses . Notice how important the sons and inheritance and blessings the ancient men have as they readied to die the children were a continuation of the parents in the earth
 
Nov 17, 2017
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#27
Hi!
Of course he was. Kinda hard to curse someone that didn't exist.
Canaan was the last son credited to Ham....

Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

Canaan wasnt born yet....Check geneology..
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
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#28
Hi!


Canaan was the last son credited to Ham....

Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

Canaan wasnt born yet....Check geneology..

Yes, he was born which is how Noah knew his name. We are also told two times that Ham is Canaan's father which further proves Canaan was alive and existed.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#29
Ham simply disrespected his father; no more no less. Today we can't imagine a father cursing a son for something so "trivial." But disrespecting father or mother is serious. You have to read what's inferred in the narrative, not only what's spoken. Ham's problem was one of a disrespectful attitude. He may have thought it was funny and went and told his brothers, "hey you want a good laugh, check this out."

After Ham saw Noah's nakedness, he went and told his brothers; he didn't have sex with Noah, or with his mother, or anything of the other ridiculous ideas I've heard. Noah was too drunk to respond but not drunk enough that he didn't remember Ham's disrespectful behavior when he woke up.
While this explanation might seem satisfactory at first, it fails to address why Noah cursed Canaan, rather than Ham.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#30
IDK what is wrong with some people... this is not an incest story.

Noah got sloshed and passed out naked. Ham obviously saw this- he should have been the one to cover up Noah, then walk away and say nothing about it to anyone else. What he did instead was blatant disrespect.
Totally agree. Ham's problem was he hesitated. He should have immediately covered Noah.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#31
While this explanation might seem satisfactory at first, it fails to address why Noah cursed Canaan, rather than Ham.
I don't know. Why did he curse Caanan and not Ham?
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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#33
.
I have two grandsons and an amalgam of thirteen nieces and nephews:
fourteen before the eldest passed away. I'm not comfortable with the
prospect of pronouncing a curse on them. It couldn't have been pleasant
for Noah to do that to one of his own.

The story at Luke 16:19-31 tells of Abraham dialoguing with one of his sons
and having to tell the man that there was nothing he could do to lessen the
poor guy's discomfort. I don't know how Abraham felt about that but I'm
pretty sure it would not be something easy for me to do; especially when I
could see them in pain and anguish with my own eyes.
_
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#34
Okay, fair enough. Let's just say we'll have to agree to disagree.

A more plausible explanation to me is God already blessed Ham in Genesis 9:1. Noah couldn't therefore curse Ham, so he cursed Canaan.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#35
Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

In the Hebrew this can also mean "younger grandson" who would be Canaan.
how did Noah know "what" had been done and "who" had done it?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#36
no one else saw this great shame of
Him passed out drunk and naked
if planting grapes, growing them, harvesting them, making wine, drinking it and falling asleep is a 'great shame' and sin,
then why is the one who found out this '
great shame' cursed?

in your narrative it sounds like the one who is to be blamed is Noah.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
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#37
Okay, fair enough. Let's just say we'll have to agree to disagree.

A more plausible explanation to me is God already blessed Ham in Genesis 9:1. Noah couldn't therefore curse Ham, so he cursed Canaan.
Respectfully, I consider that explanation weak. It contradicts God's later revelation that the son shall not die for the father's sin (Jeremiah31; Ezekiel 18). If Ham had been the offender, then Ham would it would have been right for Ham to be cursed, while Canaan would have been innocent.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#38
his shame and moment of weakness
"moment" ??

how long did it take Noah to make wine?
this isn't something he stowed on the ark - rather, maybe he stowed seeds? because Genesis 9:20 tells us he planted a vineyard.
how long does it take for a vineyard planted from seed to grow and mature until it produces enough good grapes to make wine?
and then for Noah to harvest these, make wine, and let it age?


Noah drinking wine from his own vineyard isn't a "moment of weakness"
he planned this for years, and put tremendous effort into it.

his family knew this. it was in full view, out there in the backyard, Noah's vineyard!

a man of God plants a vineyard, tends it, sees it brought to maturity, takes its fruit and produces wine, and enjoys it, and rests.
what is this a picture of?
who is Noah a type of, in the account?
remember Who scripture is written to testify to us of!
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#39
Respectfully, I consider that explanation weak. It contradicts God's later revelation that the son shall not die for the father's sin (Jeremiah31; Ezekiel 18). If Ham had been the offender, then Ham would it would have been right for Ham to be cursed, while Canaan would have been innocent.
Agree to disagree.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#40
how did Noah know "what" had been done and "who" had done it?
He was drunk but not so drunk he didn't know Ham had disrespected him. When he awoke he remembered. Not every drunken state leads to a blackout.