Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Vs 10 never happened in Peter's life.
Maybe the day of the Lord happened when Peter's life ended.
Might these verses below correspond to the topic at hand?


1 Corinthians 3:11-15

English Standard Version

11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Maybe the day of the Lord happened when Peter's life ended.
Might these verses below correspond to the topic at hand?


1 Corinthians 3:11-15

English Standard Version

11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Has the earth been burned up yet? We are still living on it right?

Unless you believe that AD 70 was that time?
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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They wouldn't. If it were supposed to be fixed, it would be fixed already; Nothing ever breaks down unless it was supposed to from the very beginning. If it broke down it's YOUR FAULT!
Why is it my fault? My car is 20 years old and has never broken down until last year, despite the fact that it has been serviced regularly as required. The starter motor packed up. Sorry to say it did not do as it was told and pack up whilst it was being serviced. No, it decided to pack up whilst I was on holiday far from the maddening crowd.
 

mustaphadrink

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Dec 13, 2013
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How about the promise about sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes, Matthew 19:28, do you consider yourself as a recipient of that promise too?
Nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I don't know what "are to us right" means.
How about the promise about sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes, Matthew 19:28, do you consider yourself as a recipient of that promise too?

That question I asked you explains what "are to us right" means
 

mustaphadrink

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Dec 13, 2013
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Not in any way whatsoever. Just a simple straight forward question based on the context of Mark 16:14.

Mark 16:14.........
"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe;

The "THEM" in verse #17 is the ANTICEDANT of the ELEVEN in verse 14,

That is Greek Grammar and is not open for translation or interpretation, it simple it what it is.

Now then....the question still stands and is valid to ask.

WHICH ONE OF THE ELEVEN WERE "YOU'?????
Ad hominen
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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How about the promise about sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes, Matthew 19:28, do you consider yourself as a recipient of that promise too?

That question I asked you explains what "are to us right" means
What about "are to us left?"
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Has the earth been burned up yet? We are still living on it right?

Unless you believe that AD 70 was that time?
But is this to be read in the perspective of the whole world, or the perspective of one moment?

If we read it in the perspective of the whole world, or the perspective of one moment, then obviously this hasn't happened yet.

However,
If we read it in the perspective of our-self, then it will happen soon - when we die.
I want you to consider this: It applies to every person, individually. Do you understand????

Let us not approach the bible with the perspective that it is addressing other people, or all people at one moment.
Let us approach the bible with the perspective that it is addressing each one of us personally.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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But is this to be read in the perspective of the whole world, or the perspective of the individual?

If we read it in the perspective of the whole world, then obviously this hasn't happened yet.
If we read it in the perspective of ourselves, then it will happen soon - when we die.

Let us not approach the bible with the perspective that it is talking to or about other people.
Let us approach the bible with the perspective that is speaking to "Me".
Oh, so you are interpreting 2 Peter 3:10, the earth burned up, as our death?

Why not take it literally instead?
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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Oh, so you are interpreting 2 Peter 3:10, the earth burned up, as our death?

Why not take it literally instead?
Everything in the bible isn't to be taken literal earthly. For the bible is a book of spiritual truth - which is not literal/earthly truth.

I feel this 2 Peter 3 applies (at least in part) to each one of us personally, and in our own time.
 

iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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Jan 12, 2019
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Everything in the bible isn't to be taken literal earthly. For the bible is a book of spiritual truth - which is not literal/earthly truth.

I feel this 2 Peter 3 applies (at least in part) to each one of us personally, and in our own time.
I see, alright then.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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Anaheim, Cali.
Why is it my fault? My car is 20 years old and has never broken down until last year, despite the fact that it has been serviced regularly as required. The starter motor packed up. Sorry to say it did not do as it was told and pack up whilst it was being serviced. No, it decided to pack up whilst I was on holiday far from the maddening crowd.
It was a joke about Calvinists.
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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I don't see any support for the non-revelatory kind of prophecy either, which is to say you're making an argument from silence.
My support comes from understanding the Greek word "προφητεια", in it's various forms, throughout Scripture and how it is used. While this word sometimes is used looking back to a prediction of future events, it is primarily used in the sense of "speaking forth" the message of God. This I have explained in earlier posts. Christ used it in reference to an Old Testament prophecy, that He was presently speaking of:

Mat 13:14 And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive:

However, Christ was not giving a new prophecy here. Same as Peter in Acts 2:17, who was speaking forth the prophecy of Joel but was not himself predicting a future event.

Let's look at how Paul used the word, in other Epistles, to see if we can get a better understanding of how he intended the word to be understood:

1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which led the way to thee, that by them thou mayest war the good warfare; Paul was not talking about some Divinely inspired revelation here but the general type of things said by others in various churches that led to Timothy being considered for a higher position. Albert Barnes has this observation: "...It is, that Paul was committing to him an important trust, and one that required great wisdom and fidelity; and that in doing it he was acting in conformity with the hopes which had been cherished respecting Timothy, and with certain expressed anticipations about his influence in the church. From early life the hope had been entertained that he would be a man to whom important trusts might be committed."

1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. The gift, was the gift of the ministry mentioned back in 1 Tim. 1:18 and here by the laying on of hands, a common tradition. Again Albert Barnes made these observations:
(1) It was the gift of God; 2Ti_1:6. He was to be recognized as its source; and it was not therefore conferred merely by human hands. The call to the ministry, the qualifications for the office, and the whole arrangement by which one is endowed for the work, are primarily to be traced to him as the source.
(2) It was given to Timothy in accordance with certain observations which had existed in regard to him - the expectations of those who had observed his qualifications for such an office, and who had expressed the hope that he would one day be permitted to serve the Lord in it.
(3) It was sanctioned by the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. The call of God to the work thus recognized by the church, and the approbation of the Presbytery expressed by setting him apart to the office, should be regarded by Timothy as a part of the “gift” or “benefit” which had been conferred on him, and which he was not to neglect.

The Greek word ""προφητεια" was used twice by Peter, in the defense of the origins of Old Testament prophecies:

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit. So once again this particular Greek word is not used in the predictive sense by Peter; rather he was writing about the Divine inspiration of the Old Testament Prophets. The OT prophets did not speak from their own ideas but that all of what they said and warned about was from God, being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

We begin to see the pattern emerging now. A pattern where either the user is speaking of a predictive event from the Old Testament or ones ministerial gift to be able "to speak forth" the Word and edify the listener. But let's not stop here - let's see how it was further used in the book of Revelation:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. This is not speaking of ones ability to receive direct revelation from God or predict future events. It is obviously referring to the blessing one will receive in reading this Prophecy, (this epistle, the words written down). While John, the author, certainly had a vision directly from Jesus Christ, the Greek word once again is being used retrospectively. The same goes for Rev. 22:7, 10, 18 and 19.

Rev 10:11 And they say unto me, Thou must prophesy again over many peoples and nations and tongues and kings. The meaning here is that John must go forth and proclaim God's message over people and nations and various languages and kings. Whether this was to be understood as personally speaking or through the written message, is a discussion for another time and thread.

Rev 11:3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Again, this is not saying they are going to be giving predictive revelations from God but will be proclaiming the Truth of God for three and a half years, (also see Rev. 11:6). Barnes made these comments on the text: "And they shall prophesy; that is, "that they may prophesy"; which is supported by the Arabic and Ethiopic versions, the former rendering the words, "I will give to my two witnesses to prophesy", and the latter, "I will give in command to my two witnesses that they may prophesy"; the sense is, that Christ will give to them a mission and commission, sufficient authority, all needful gifts and grace, courage and presence of mind to preach his Gospel, to hold forth his word, and bear a testimony for him during the whole time of the apostasy,"

So as we see, this Greek word, that Paul used in the 1 Corinthian letter, almost always carries the meaning of ones ability to proclaim the Word of God. When not being used in that way, it is always connected to a retrospective look at OT prophecies. The word is not used when discussing a New Testament ability or gift. Therefore, it would be ludicrous to think that Paul is using this word in an entirely different way than he had used it in other epistles or in the way it was commonly used by other writers. If they were inspired to use this word, by the Holy Spirit, that self same Spirit would not employ it's use differently in that one epistle.

There are other Greek words translated - prophecy - but these were not used in the Corinthian letter. So the proof of it being used the way you want it to be, is then in your court.