the Biblical definition of sin..... missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good, and not doing so. this is the Biblical definition of sin. falling to keep { or care about } some stupid list does nothing to point one toward these standards, which we all should be striving to keep, but at times coming up short.
Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Paul gave us the line in galations.
The law was a tutor to bring us to Christ (grace) but after we have come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Anyone who makes the law anything other than a tutur or schoolmaster, to lead us to christ, is taking the law out of context.
Absolutely, just like anyone trying to convince me that grace is a New Testament concept is taking grace out of context.
I thank God for the law of Moses. BUT it has fulfilled it's purpose and now has no place in the believer's life. The law is NOT dead - we are dead to it. The law is still used for the unrighteous. Believers are righteous in Christ.
Paul who knew more about the law of Moses than anyone else , had this to say about the law:
The purpose of the law was :
1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20
2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8
3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11
4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24
The law is good and holy! But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.
The law is not for the righteous but for the unrighteous.
1 Timothy 1:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
[SUP]9[/SUP] realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
Paul who knew more about the law of Moses than anyone else , had this to say about the law:
The purpose of the law was :
1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20
2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8
3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11
4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24
The law is good and holy! But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.
The law is not for the righteous but for the unrighteous.
1 Timothy 1:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
[SUP]9[/SUP] realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
no argument here, Grace was from the beginning, when God clothed Adam and Eve and did not strike them dead!
Hi Grace777
When Matt started his law thread I actually took some time and red it. It is amazing to see how much of it is actually practical and can be practiced in our modern day Christianity. We are so use to fighting over law and grace but in the end the two goes hand in hand and it is our duty to understand both.
We will not have an excuse for a lack of knowledge when Jesus return.
When Matt started his law thread I actually took some time and red it. It is amazing to see how much of it is actually practical and can be practiced in our modern day Christianity. We are so use to fighting over law and grace but in the end the two goes hand in hand and it is our duty to understand both.
We will not have an excuse for a lack of knowledge when Jesus return.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The problem with law is it can make us think we are better than we are. I do not do these things, so I am ok with God. and not in trouble. When that can be a false hope. And it can cause us to judge others who struggle (well the law says this, so your a sinner)
the law can not tell you all that is right and wrong, it was never intended to do that, the fact that people can walk around saying we should use the law as our guide, yet not think they have an issue with God and their sin, proves this.
The law and grace can not mix.
the law condems Grace saves. Tghe law was given to lead us to grace, they are polar opposites.
It was intended to show you you have sinned and fall short.. Thats it.
This is new. There are standards we should keep. If we do not know what they are how can
anybody strive to keep them.
Walking in love and with the Lord has never been striving for me. It is about a relationship with
Him and those around me. Walking in love is about prayer, commiting things to the Lord as you do
them, living in praise to Him, and finding time to think about who He is and His word.
Now I created a list because people seem ignorant of both the content and the meaning of
the principles involved. To put it bluntly a lot of people are simply not saved but they are convinced
they know what they are talking about, but clearly from their emphasis and words they do not.
I had a conversation with one young man, who said he was a christian. I said I was saved by faith
alone in Christ, and he looked puzzled. This was not what he believed. It got more confusing as we
went on because he simply was not a christian, and he believed a jumble of different things which did
not add up.
So it matters to start at the basics, and then work up from them.
This is partly why the Alpha course was created to fill in this basic gap in training and discipleship
in the faith.
Now to get back to missing the mark, it is your conscience that is the first indicator something
is seriously wrong, in missing the mark.
This is primary school language. God is a stranger to us at first. We have no clue what he wants
or why. The law is part of the relationship, but it never brings anything else than God has a plan.
It is love and openness that captures our souls, that wins us over to follow our Lord.
Peter was asked, Do you love me?
When you know Christ love, I mean deep in your heart so that you would die in service of this
love, looking at everything is no problem. But we have many people who deceive themselves
and fear the law will condemn them or turn them into jibbering wrecks.
The bible is all there for our good, every last word. If you cannot face this, you still have a lot
of discovery to make before you are on rung one of spiritual insight.
I agree.....there are some things to learn from all scripture and that it is good to understand where both fit in a Christian's life.
To me - I am dead to the law, I have no relation to the law at all. I love to read in the law how Christ has fulfilled the law and I see Him in it. That is exciting!
So, how does a Christian live now in the New Covenant?
We do have laws in the New Covenant. They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.
There is no greater revelation than to know Him and the Father and to plumb the depths of their love and grace towards us which Paul says in Eph. 2:7 - the Father will be doing for all the ages to come to us.
Ephesians 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.
Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.
We now live by:
1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )
2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )
3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )
4) The law of liberty ( James 1:25 )
5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )
We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the beggarly elements that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough.
Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )
Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
I have to disagree with you because we can clearly see God's grace hand in hand with his law in the OT.
Religion took the two away from each other
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I have to disagree with you because we can clearly see God's grace hand in hand with his law in the OT.
Religion took the two away from each other
I have to disagree with you.
Paul said the law is a schoolmaster. Those saved by it are no longer under it.
And in the OT, The law was given so whan Christ came they could see him, yet when Christ came, they crucified him. so the law did not even do what it was supposed to do.
The law will never tell you how good you are. or how to be good. That was the mistake of the jews. It is proven because before the law was given, and gentiles who does not have the law. People could be morally good people (do things which are in the law) in fact, they at times did it when the jews did not..
The law does not make people Good. or make people bad People do..
Actually, I believe Religion put the two back together.
B
bikerchaz
Guest
I have not read through this thread, just answered your post as I saw it. I will not answer any more because I do not want to be embroiled in a futile argument
Not that I do believe this (blatant sin), but, Probably the same way that the 'grace group' or most of them, see being repentant as earning salvation by works.
Our daily prayer, the one Jesus taught shows we are to ask for forgiveness as we forgive those who sin against us, yet this is turned by the grace group into works to earn salvation, Who knew? ? ?
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I have to disagree with you because we can clearly see God's grace hand in hand with his law in the OT.
Religion took the two away from each other
Yes, separating the 2 has us 'hopping on one leg....that may be fun for children but is not recommended to take us through life !!! It becomes and is a 'handicap from which we must be healed so we can find support in both.
How many of us follow this instruction:
Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
The Bible is clear that everything in the Bible is about Jesus. It was about Him before Moses received the written law.
If we look at everything before Moses received the law we can see a clear picture of Jesus. The law was never the teacher it was a guide to relationship with God. A description of His character. We know God does not change so His character will not change. It is up to us to determine if God's Word is still valid (or not).
Amen, the law is only a guideline but Jesus will determine our destination, even if you were born in the OT. You can clearly see that Abraham, Noah, David, Moses etc had a relationship with Him. They knew Him and understood He is the Saviour. This is not New Testament knowledge/revelation.
No sir, this is impossible
The law as 'contained in works and ordinances was indeed a 'schoolmaster to bring us to Christ and now no longer apply. What makes you include the moral/spiritual/eternal commandments with the secular/temporal ones ? Why are you not putting difference between holy and unholy Lev 10v10 ?
Luke 6.36 is the same Scripture as Matthew 5.48.
Being perfect means being merciful.