Why pastors and preachers should not be receiving salaries
- Thread starter Enxu
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I do not know if I would be willing to do that or not. Are you saying it is wrong to sell books? Are you suggesting that we should give them away for free? Should we just have ebooks? Because there is money associated with printing books. I have a friend that prints Bibles. You have to pay for ink & paper and the machinery. I use to buy books at half price and give them away to people. I know a pastor that all the money he gets for his books he uses to print books that he gives away for free in Africa and on the mission trail. Should he just put all his books on the internet and give them away for free?
-
1
-
1
- Show all
It's amazing how many preachers I have heard who had never read the entire Bible but only took study classes. I think the sad fact is that the most of the ones in the Churches would not have a clue as to if that preacher they hired had read it though unless they had read it for their selves. It's sort of like someone saying they watched a movie and talking about it to you when they had not, it sticks out to those who did watch it.
S
I do not know a lot of pastors, but those I do know spent 40 to 60 hours a week in study, teaching, counselling, visiting the sick and shut-ins.
Just how many of you folks that are so set on not paying a pastor for all the time he spend in his ministry would be willing to do as they do for free.
Careful now--God hates a liar.
Just how many of you folks that are so set on not paying a pastor for all the time he spend in his ministry would be willing to do as they do for free.
Careful now--God hates a liar.
-
5
- Show all
I have a problem with tithing, if the people in charge of the ministry that I give to, doesn't separate the money that's supposed to go to church support & projects, from the money that they use for their personal expenditures. I like to know that when I actually donate money to build wells in Kenya, for example, that my money is going there, and not to siphoned off to pay for a ministers landscaping expenses, like one prominent, prosperity preacher I donated to not too long ago.
-
2
- Show all
I don't believe in tithing. It is an Interesting OT rule, bringing in the first fruits of the harvest. Nothing to do with money.
I do believe in giving generously. I go to a Baptist church which has congregational governance. The books are open and several times a year, we get to see the books at annual general meetings or special AGMs. We also have a budget. Any one can ask questions, point out errors or inconsistencies.
The pastors salaries and benefits are there for people to see. Other expenses are also there in print to see. I've never seen the pastor's landscaping as a line item. Also, our debts are there to see.
I would never attend a church that wasn't run by the congregation. There are quite a few denominations that do this. It would also bother me if I didn't know where my money was going.
After we have given generously to our church, we donate money for wells in various countries in Africa and South East Asia. We check out the financial statements of the group, and in the end, we receive a picture of the well and the townspeople.
We also donate to other causes like orphanages, Compassion children and other good causes, such as special equipment for a medical centre in Nigeria, missionaries, and such things as they come up. God has blessed us with being comfortable, so we can afford to give to these other organizations money to do special things.
As for TV preachers, I don't watch them ever, and I certainly wouldn't give them money. Not my thing at all.
I do believe in giving generously. I go to a Baptist church which has congregational governance. The books are open and several times a year, we get to see the books at annual general meetings or special AGMs. We also have a budget. Any one can ask questions, point out errors or inconsistencies.
The pastors salaries and benefits are there for people to see. Other expenses are also there in print to see. I've never seen the pastor's landscaping as a line item. Also, our debts are there to see.
I would never attend a church that wasn't run by the congregation. There are quite a few denominations that do this. It would also bother me if I didn't know where my money was going.
After we have given generously to our church, we donate money for wells in various countries in Africa and South East Asia. We check out the financial statements of the group, and in the end, we receive a picture of the well and the townspeople.
We also donate to other causes like orphanages, Compassion children and other good causes, such as special equipment for a medical centre in Nigeria, missionaries, and such things as they come up. God has blessed us with being comfortable, so we can afford to give to these other organizations money to do special things.
As for TV preachers, I don't watch them ever, and I certainly wouldn't give them money. Not my thing at all.
-
3
- Show all
That's ok, that's good. They got it all laid out for everybody to see. I was raised in the Lutheran Church, I had a horrid time of it as a kid, eventually I fell away. I wouldn't watch televangelists either. I thought they were all a bunch of crooks. And of course, things didn't improve much when I was walking contrary to my Lord, things got pretty weird and vile.
Then, finally when I was 46, about 18 months after my Mom died, I went to sleep one night, I had a dream. In this dream, my mother was standing in front of me, ragging on me and nagging me vehemently about something, but I couldn't hear what she was saying, not until just as I was waking up, I heard all of sudden her say urgently to me, "You must come back, Come Back!! Come Back!! You must come back!!, and with that she turned and walked up the hallway of our old home very determinedly, like she was going to go get ready for work or to go somewhere. And I woke up fully, and I thought "Wow!!" What was that all about?", Well she must have been worried about me, because the night before, I had been in a very, very dark frame of mind, it was like someone was speaking to me, and I followed my train of thought and it led somewhere, to a course of action, that I knew I wouldn't go. I thought, no, I ain't going there...."
So, God must've allowed her to reach out to me, or maybe His Holy Spirit through my memory of her. But, I thought about what she said, "Come Back!", come back to who, where?" And I thought, and I remembered that there was only one person, and one place she always told me to come back to, either when prior to ending a phone conversation, or when I was leaving from having visited her at her house. She would say to me, "Honey, come back to Jesus", Come back to church, Come back to God, Sweetie," "God loves you, Jesus loves you, come back to church." So, I thought, "Well, she ought to know, she's on the other side of this life."
Then I thought, "Go back to which church?" They all spout 2 Bible verses, and a lot of hot air for the next 45 minutes, which have nothing to do with Jesus, or God. And they all just want money." About a week & a half later, after thinking about churches, I went to sleep, but I woke up about 2 am, and I turned on the TV in the bedroom, and was flipping through the channels for something stupid to watch, that I would just go back to sleep to, and in the middle of switching channels, I saw a big man, and he was holding a big book in his hand, open, and pounding on it with his big fist, saying excitedly, "Those bible-thumpers!!" Whop-Whop "Those 2-verse-Charlie bible thumpers!!" Whop-Whop-Whop"!!! (LOL!) I thought "Wait a minute!!" Who are you, Mr.!!??" "You're thumping your Bible, hypocrite!!" & I turned back to the station, and it was Pastor Arnold Murray, of Shepherd's Chapel, And I listened for 5 minutes, and then he said "And women in the church get a bad rap!! They do all the work, but the pastor's get all the credit!! Women in the churches are treated like 2nd class-citizens!!!! And it's not right!!!".......I thought: "I like you!!!". I've been listening to him for 22-1/2 years, and I've never regretted it. And then my husband, he would go watch TV in the living room, and let me use the computer so I could listen to the daily bible study program, and one day, Pastor Arnold made a funny, and I heard my husband laugh, that happened about 3 times and then I noticed that the TV was on stupid commercials, and I wondered if he was listening to the bible study, which he could hear it from the living room, our house is small.
Not very long, about a week after that, he asked me to buy him a bible, and asked if he could join in on the bible study programs with me, and I was over-joyed!! So, my husband came to believe, and I had great peace of mind over his soul, when he departed this life about 3 years ago from cancer.
I used to walk out of church, the times when I tried to go back, wondering "Why doesn't the Pastor talk about what God says, about what Jesus says?", and I felt very empty. Pastor Murray taught strictly chapter & verse by verse, explaining each verse as he went along. I could look it up for myself, research what he said in the KJV Bible & the Strong's Concordance, and compare with what other Commentaries had to say, like Matthew Henry's Commentary, I have that set. I learned a lot from Pastor Murray, and now his son Dennis is Pastor in his place, since he died in 2014. For me, it has to be God's word, not a man's word, and not traditions of men, Pastor Murray always said "Check what you hear from man, this man, pointing to himself, any man, Check what he says out in God's word, and think for yourself." Well, every time I double checked what he said in the Bible, he was right on, so that was good enough for me, I knew I could trust his preaching. I didn't mean for this to be so long, sorry.
Then, finally when I was 46, about 18 months after my Mom died, I went to sleep one night, I had a dream. In this dream, my mother was standing in front of me, ragging on me and nagging me vehemently about something, but I couldn't hear what she was saying, not until just as I was waking up, I heard all of sudden her say urgently to me, "You must come back, Come Back!! Come Back!! You must come back!!, and with that she turned and walked up the hallway of our old home very determinedly, like she was going to go get ready for work or to go somewhere. And I woke up fully, and I thought "Wow!!" What was that all about?", Well she must have been worried about me, because the night before, I had been in a very, very dark frame of mind, it was like someone was speaking to me, and I followed my train of thought and it led somewhere, to a course of action, that I knew I wouldn't go. I thought, no, I ain't going there...."
So, God must've allowed her to reach out to me, or maybe His Holy Spirit through my memory of her. But, I thought about what she said, "Come Back!", come back to who, where?" And I thought, and I remembered that there was only one person, and one place she always told me to come back to, either when prior to ending a phone conversation, or when I was leaving from having visited her at her house. She would say to me, "Honey, come back to Jesus", Come back to church, Come back to God, Sweetie," "God loves you, Jesus loves you, come back to church." So, I thought, "Well, she ought to know, she's on the other side of this life."
Then I thought, "Go back to which church?" They all spout 2 Bible verses, and a lot of hot air for the next 45 minutes, which have nothing to do with Jesus, or God. And they all just want money." About a week & a half later, after thinking about churches, I went to sleep, but I woke up about 2 am, and I turned on the TV in the bedroom, and was flipping through the channels for something stupid to watch, that I would just go back to sleep to, and in the middle of switching channels, I saw a big man, and he was holding a big book in his hand, open, and pounding on it with his big fist, saying excitedly, "Those bible-thumpers!!" Whop-Whop "Those 2-verse-Charlie bible thumpers!!" Whop-Whop-Whop"!!! (LOL!) I thought "Wait a minute!!" Who are you, Mr.!!??" "You're thumping your Bible, hypocrite!!" & I turned back to the station, and it was Pastor Arnold Murray, of Shepherd's Chapel, And I listened for 5 minutes, and then he said "And women in the church get a bad rap!! They do all the work, but the pastor's get all the credit!! Women in the churches are treated like 2nd class-citizens!!!! And it's not right!!!".......I thought: "I like you!!!". I've been listening to him for 22-1/2 years, and I've never regretted it. And then my husband, he would go watch TV in the living room, and let me use the computer so I could listen to the daily bible study program, and one day, Pastor Arnold made a funny, and I heard my husband laugh, that happened about 3 times and then I noticed that the TV was on stupid commercials, and I wondered if he was listening to the bible study, which he could hear it from the living room, our house is small.
Not very long, about a week after that, he asked me to buy him a bible, and asked if he could join in on the bible study programs with me, and I was over-joyed!! So, my husband came to believe, and I had great peace of mind over his soul, when he departed this life about 3 years ago from cancer.
I used to walk out of church, the times when I tried to go back, wondering "Why doesn't the Pastor talk about what God says, about what Jesus says?", and I felt very empty. Pastor Murray taught strictly chapter & verse by verse, explaining each verse as he went along. I could look it up for myself, research what he said in the KJV Bible & the Strong's Concordance, and compare with what other Commentaries had to say, like Matthew Henry's Commentary, I have that set. I learned a lot from Pastor Murray, and now his son Dennis is Pastor in his place, since he died in 2014. For me, it has to be God's word, not a man's word, and not traditions of men, Pastor Murray always said "Check what you hear from man, this man, pointing to himself, any man, Check what he says out in God's word, and think for yourself." Well, every time I double checked what he said in the Bible, he was right on, so that was good enough for me, I knew I could trust his preaching. I didn't mean for this to be so long, sorry.
Angela53510, Pastor Murray didn't take a salary from the church that developed out of his home bible study group, either, he worked.
He didn't pass a plate in church, there is a box on the back wall of the church, and people gives as freely as they are able. He didn't believe in passing a plate in church. Regarding tithing, he always said, "If you're retired/disabled/ and on a fixed income, and it's all you can do to make ends meet, ....10% of nothing is zero. You don't owe a tithe." "Don't short yourself on necessary meds, and groceries, or other things to try to pay a 10% tithe. If all you got left at the end of the month after scraping by is 0, you owe them nothing, nada, zip, zero!"
He didn't pass a plate in church, there is a box on the back wall of the church, and people gives as freely as they are able. He didn't believe in passing a plate in church. Regarding tithing, he always said, "If you're retired/disabled/ and on a fixed income, and it's all you can do to make ends meet, ....10% of nothing is zero. You don't owe a tithe." "Don't short yourself on necessary meds, and groceries, or other things to try to pay a 10% tithe. If all you got left at the end of the month after scraping by is 0, you owe them nothing, nada, zip, zero!"
Yeah, Apostle Paul, and Priscilla, and her husband Aquila were tentmakers. They all worked for a living. I think Paul took that point of view, to avoid accusatory finger-pointing by people who were against him. The 10% tithe came from when in Numbers Ch.s 16, 26 & 27 the Levites sided with Moses Aaron, when their God-given authority to lead, was challenged by Korah, and a group of men he had deceived. So, then God was impressed with their loyalty, and chose Aaron, and the Levites to be in charge of the the Tabernacle, the sanctuary, and the Holy of holies, as well as in the Temple in Jerusalem, after it was built by Solomon. And God laid it out that the congregation should bring 10% of the best of their produce, crops, livestock, cattle, sheep, rams & goats, and wine, flour, and olive oil to the Temple. Out of that 10% the Chief priests, like Aaron, would give God 10%, but then He would bless it, and they would eat and drink the sacrifices in His honor. God provided for them because He was their inheritance, the priests and the tribe of Levi were not alloted land like the rest of the other tribes. The best of what ever was brought to God, they received for their service in the Tabernacle, and then in the Temple.
-
1
- Show all
I am glad you had a dream that led you to want you to come back to Jesus. The Book of Job talks about God warning people in a dream, a vision of the night.
[qutoe]
I used to walk out of church, the times when I tried to go back, wondering "Why doesn't the Pastor talk about what God says, about what Jesus says?", and I felt very empty. Pastor Murray taught strictly chapter & verse by verse, explaining each verse as he went along. I could look it up for myself, research what he said in the KJV Bible & the Strong's Concordance, and compare with what other Commentaries had to say, like Matthew Henry's Commentary, I have that set.[/quote]
My own experience with Arnold Murray's teachings was not so positive. I was able to use a Strong's concordance and see that his anti-semetic theory about Kenites was not backed up by scripture. It was backed up by a lot of 'Because I say so' line of reasoning.
Murray argued that Eve had sex with the serpent and that Cain was the serpent's baby and Able was Adam's. This is totally unjustifiable from Genesis. He pointed to a Hebrew word in Genesis translated tree and one of the glosses, as I recall, could mean spine. That was supposed to be evidence from the passage that Eve had sex with the serpent-- pure nonsense. Most of us allow for a little bit of literative and allegorical language in our interpretation of scripture-- and that Cain was the child of the devil because of his sinful nature rather than being genetic offspring.
He taught that the Kenites were descendants of the Cain who was Able's brother, rather than some Cain whose descendants were actually alive after the flood. There were eight people saved by water. Maybe Murray counted Kenites as animals, demonic hybrids-- so they could survive the flood--and ancestors of (some of at least) those who claim to be Jews nowadays. His theory--which I refute--sounded like a better justification--if it were true-- for the Holocaust than Adolph Hitler's.
On the one hand, Murray would have us insist that Moses' Kenite wife wasn't a Kenite but was called that because she was from a Kenite area. There is no reason to believe him besides 'I say so.' Descendants of Moses' in-laws are called Kenites elsewhere in scripture. He tries to make the Rechabite Kenites out to be physical descendants of Satan, though Jeremiah's prophecy makes them out to be honorable for honoring their father's tradition in contrast to Israel's treatment of the Law. He gets the neo-Nazi sounding idea that they won't till the soil, the kind of criticism anti-semetic movements level at Jews. But making Kenites out to be modern Jews is ridiculous. A reference to Kenites being scribes is twisted to be about them 'handling the money.' Of course some historical banking families are Jewish.
Jesus' statement that 'ye are of your father the devil' and the statement about the 'synagogue of Satan', instead of being taken to refer to their spiritual father, are reinterpreted through this weird Kenite hypothesis, that the Kenites of the time Israel is in the land were supposed to be physical descendants of Satan and Eve through Cain, who somehow survived the flood (which would more make sense if he considered them to be animals), infiltrated the Jews and replaced their leadership. And that , taken with his other comments, can lead to the conclusion that many of the Jews today won't till the ground and like to handle money.
His treatment of the parables was messed up, too. There is nothing in the parable of the wheat and tares about wheat becoming tares. And the fact that the word for seed is where we get 'sperm' from in English doesn't prove the parable is talking about physical progeny from Satan.
The condescending attitude and contemptuous comments he makes about other preachers, in general, seemed to rub off on some of his followers. I found it quite repulsive.
Someone gave me a tape of his and asked what I thought. I told them what I'd discovered by actually following his arguments through the Strong's, somethignghe recommended, and warned against following him.
[qutoe]
I used to walk out of church, the times when I tried to go back, wondering "Why doesn't the Pastor talk about what God says, about what Jesus says?", and I felt very empty. Pastor Murray taught strictly chapter & verse by verse, explaining each verse as he went along. I could look it up for myself, research what he said in the KJV Bible & the Strong's Concordance, and compare with what other Commentaries had to say, like Matthew Henry's Commentary, I have that set.[/quote]
My own experience with Arnold Murray's teachings was not so positive. I was able to use a Strong's concordance and see that his anti-semetic theory about Kenites was not backed up by scripture. It was backed up by a lot of 'Because I say so' line of reasoning.
Murray argued that Eve had sex with the serpent and that Cain was the serpent's baby and Able was Adam's. This is totally unjustifiable from Genesis. He pointed to a Hebrew word in Genesis translated tree and one of the glosses, as I recall, could mean spine. That was supposed to be evidence from the passage that Eve had sex with the serpent-- pure nonsense. Most of us allow for a little bit of literative and allegorical language in our interpretation of scripture-- and that Cain was the child of the devil because of his sinful nature rather than being genetic offspring.
He taught that the Kenites were descendants of the Cain who was Able's brother, rather than some Cain whose descendants were actually alive after the flood. There were eight people saved by water. Maybe Murray counted Kenites as animals, demonic hybrids-- so they could survive the flood--and ancestors of (some of at least) those who claim to be Jews nowadays. His theory--which I refute--sounded like a better justification--if it were true-- for the Holocaust than Adolph Hitler's.
On the one hand, Murray would have us insist that Moses' Kenite wife wasn't a Kenite but was called that because she was from a Kenite area. There is no reason to believe him besides 'I say so.' Descendants of Moses' in-laws are called Kenites elsewhere in scripture. He tries to make the Rechabite Kenites out to be physical descendants of Satan, though Jeremiah's prophecy makes them out to be honorable for honoring their father's tradition in contrast to Israel's treatment of the Law. He gets the neo-Nazi sounding idea that they won't till the soil, the kind of criticism anti-semetic movements level at Jews. But making Kenites out to be modern Jews is ridiculous. A reference to Kenites being scribes is twisted to be about them 'handling the money.' Of course some historical banking families are Jewish.
Jesus' statement that 'ye are of your father the devil' and the statement about the 'synagogue of Satan', instead of being taken to refer to their spiritual father, are reinterpreted through this weird Kenite hypothesis, that the Kenites of the time Israel is in the land were supposed to be physical descendants of Satan and Eve through Cain, who somehow survived the flood (which would more make sense if he considered them to be animals), infiltrated the Jews and replaced their leadership. And that , taken with his other comments, can lead to the conclusion that many of the Jews today won't till the ground and like to handle money.
His treatment of the parables was messed up, too. There is nothing in the parable of the wheat and tares about wheat becoming tares. And the fact that the word for seed is where we get 'sperm' from in English doesn't prove the parable is talking about physical progeny from Satan.
The condescending attitude and contemptuous comments he makes about other preachers, in general, seemed to rub off on some of his followers. I found it quite repulsive.
Someone gave me a tape of his and asked what I thought. I told them what I'd discovered by actually following his arguments through the Strong's, somethignghe recommended, and warned against following him.
-
1
- Show all