Will the Holy Spirit dwell within an unclean vessel?

[FreeNChrist]

Do you think all born-again Christians have been given this baptism?

Yes. To be born-again IS to be spiritually identified with Christ by being immersed with Him in death and raised together with Him to the newness of life.

 

[ZacharyB]

Yes. To be born-again IS to be spiritually identified with Christ
by being immersed with Him in death and raised together with Him to the newness of life.

Which brand of milk is your favorite for slurping?
Unfortunately, Paul did not ask this vital question ...
when he was chastising believers for still being on milk
instead of chewing on and digesting meat.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Which brand of milk is your favorite for slurping?
Unfortunately, Paul did not ask this vital question ...
when he was chastising believers for still being on milk instead of meat.

What we are having to teach YOU here IS the milk.

 

[heavenly_bound]

Carrying on from post #38 ...

Do you think all born-again Christians have been given this baptism with the Holy Spirit?

In Acts, this baptism was always accompanied by some words in tongues.
However, as with the reporting of most (all?) events,
not everything that actually happens is reported.
Hence, tongues is not mentioned in all of the Spirit-baptism accounts in Acts.
Neither were all of the prophetic utterances reported.
Neither were all of the boldness manifestations reported.
Neither were all of the miracles (at the time) reported.
Neither were all of the FILLED with the Spirit reported
(when one is born-again, he/she is NOT filled with the Spirit; the Spirit just comes inside).

Do you think all born-again Christians have been given this baptism?
Know anyone at all who has experienced any of these things when being born-again?

P.S. After starting a post ...
be quite sure that you will not be receiving a phone call, you will not have to visit the bathroom, etc.

we were born again( begotten again 1 Pet 1:3) at the resurrection of Jesus from the death! i think the church has mistaken conversion for born again

 

[heavenly_bound]

Yes. To be born-again IS to be spiritually identified with Christ by being immersed with Him in death and raised together with Him to the newness of life.

yes that happened when Christ rose from the death(1 pet 1 :3). it is not when when confessed Christ as lord that it was then that Christ saved us! The work was done even before you confess it. Good news is something that has already happened; so when you hear the good news that 2000 yrs ago Christ saved you by destroying the old sin nature on the cross, and you believer this good news then conversion takes place and you are then seal with the Holy Spirit of Promise. accepting the work of Christ is called conversion and not born again. born again means begotten again, re- made, etc. I think the church has just miss understood the usage of the different terms

 

[ZacharyB]

accepting the work of Christ is called conversion and not born again.
born again means begotten again, re- made, etc.
I think the church has just miss understood the usage of the different terms

Yes, this has been troubling me also. IMO ...
Conversion means to now (even just intellectually?) believe in Jesus (and His gospel?).
Born-again means to experience a real change in belief-faith, ideas, opinions, etc.

But then again, we know that historically ...
multitudes have sat in churches who were NOT born-again.

 

[heavenly_bound]

What we are having to teach YOU here IS the milk.

And it seems as though even the milk , he is still unable to handle!!

 

[ZacharyB]

IMO, the main thing that some of you detest about me is that
I post the many dire dozens of warnings in the NT about
the very real possibility of believers losing their salvation.

If you are a sincere Christian, you will honestly endeavor to ...
RECONCILE the OSAS NT verses with the anti-OSAS NT verses!

I believe I have done that, and the answer is ...
True saving faith = belief-faith-trust-obedience-endurance!
This is the result of putting all of the NT verses together, i.e. reconciling them.

P.S. I'm not like your church and pastor ...
I couldn't give a fig if you leave and stop paying tithes!

 

[PeterJens]

Which is why God cleaned the vessel, by dealing with the sin problem once and for all, so that we could be indwelt by Christ.

Now this logic sounds fine.

But imagine a christians mind dominated by pornography and lust.

This is where our ideas of indwelling become more pictoral than understanding.
I believe the Lord indwells all believers, but is grieved by much behaviour, and
will leave some if the rebellion stays unresolved.

Paul suggested the idea of handing a believer over to satan for rebuke.

In truth we are called to live in purity and blamelessness. But this is so far
from most peoples experience and language, just going to church on a sunday
is a stretch, let alone being pure and blameless. Do you think we are saints or
something?

Yes. Gods Holy people, redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

I once came out with a list of thoughts or actions from a disfunctional person,
and asked how many people identified with.

Unfortunately many identified strongly with much of the list.

So even here in this little community things are not what they seem, and people
have very different levels of insight and understanding of life, health, righteousness,
beauty, love etc.

But it should be an encouragement to find out where you are, because it means
you can progress through Jesus to another place through the work of the Holy
Spirit in your life.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Now this logic sounds fine.

But imagine a christians mind dominated by pornography and lust.

This is where our ideas of indwelling become more pictoral than understanding.
I believe the Lord indwells all believers, but is grieved by much behaviour, and
will leave some if the rebellion stays unresolved.

Paul suggested the idea of handing a believer over to satan for rebuke.

In truth we are called to live in purity and blamelessness. But this is so far
from most peoples experience and language, just going to church on a sunday
is a stretch, let alone being pure and blameless. Do you think we are saints or
something?

Yes. Gods Holy people, redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

I once came out with a list of thoughts or actions from a disfunctional person,
and asked how many people identified with.

Unfortunately many identified strongly with much of the list.

So even here in this little community things are not what they seem, and people
have very different levels of insight and understanding of life, health, righteousness,
beauty, love etc.

But it should be an encouragement to find out where you are, because it means
you can progress through Jesus to another place through the work of the Holy
Spirit in your life.

I do not appreciate you using my posts merely as a launching point for you to espouse your own screwy theology. Especially when it relates in no way to the post you claim what you are writing is a response to.

 

[LaurenTM]

Originally Posted by heavenly_boundaccepting the work of Christ is called conversion and not born again.
born again means begotten again, re- made, etc.

I think the church has just miss understood the usage of the different terms

I dunno

something is wrong with my Bible!!!

and the Lexicon too

looks around...anyone else have a messed up version too?


Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

1Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.

3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”



[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]NASB ©[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 10%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Definition[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]Jesus[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἰησοῦς[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]iēsous[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2424[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]Jesus or Joshua, the name of the Messiah, also three other Isr.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]of Hebrew originYehoshua[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]answered[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀπεκρίθη[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]apekrithē[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]611[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]to answer[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]from apo andkrinó[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]and said[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]λέγω[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]legō[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3004[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]to say[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. verb[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]to him, "Truly,[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀμὴν[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]amēn[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]281[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]truly[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]adverb of Hebrew origin amen[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]truly,[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀμὴν[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]amēn[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]281[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]truly[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]adverb of Hebrew origin amen[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]I say[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"][/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3004[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]to say[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. verb[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]to you, unless[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐὰν[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ean[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1437[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]if (a conditional particle used like NG1487, but usually with the Gr. subjunctive mood)[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]contr. from ei andan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]one[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τις[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tis[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5100[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]a certain one, someone, anyone[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. enclitic indef. pronoun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]is born[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]γεννηθῇ[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]gennēthē[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1080[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]to beget, to bring forth[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]from genna (descent, birth)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]again[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἄνωθεν[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]anōthen[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]509[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]from above[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]from anó





[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[LaurenTM]

Absolutely not.


A mind full of negative, evil, judgmental thoughts is an unclean vessel. God’s Spirit will not dwell there. Therefore, if you hunger for the Holy Spirit to live within you, you must first provide a clean vessel in which It can live.


Peace of mind and a worry-free life reward those folks who provide clean vessels in which God’s Spirt can live.

another judgmental observation

WE do not provide a clean vessel

Jesus cleans us up...by the Holy Spirit

one wonders just how many versions of a works inspired gospel exist

 

[PeterJens]

I do not appreciate you using my posts merely as a launching point for you to espouse your own screwy theology. Especially when it relates in no way to the post you claim what you are writing is a response to.

I am sorry. I did not explain the link I was trying to make.
You were saying we are cleansed, once for all, which I say amen to.

But like the seed and the sower, believers do not necessarily follow through.

Now some people in your camp have tried to separate out our old man from
the new man, and said the old man is no more.

Others say the old man or the flesh is still present, it is just a choice which
you emphasise, the flesh or the spirit.

Now after such a long time talking about such issues I thought you might be
more accomodating, but obviously not, so I apologise.

By the way I was not seeking your praise or approval, I was just sharing.

And the subject of the op, is how can the Holy Spirit dwell in an impure believer.
It is an interesting question, especially if you hold to a faith position where sin
does not defile the believer at all, because it is already forgiven, so in some
ways a contradiction.

Now I like such questions, because they expose a tension.

Paul for instance uses the reason christians do not go to prostitutes is because
you cannot be one between a holy temple and a vessel that is defiled.

Not the argument I would have come up with, but then I am not Paul.

 

[PeterJens]

another judgmental observation
WE do not provide a clean vessel
Jesus cleans us up...by the Holy Spirit
one wonders just how many versions of a works inspired gospel exist

"one wonders just how many versions of a works inspired gospel exist"

This phrase makes me laugh. If you claim any response from a believer
which is stated as necessary is works salvation, there are as many versions
of this as there are believers.

What may dawn eventually, is we are expected to respond, each believer, to
do things, like write and defend love, and the glorious wonder of the cross.

It is us humans who write, not Christ, though it is Christ writing through us,
it is our response, our hearts warmed to His light.

But I know saying we respond is evil...We should be passive vessels possessed
by God, mere puppets to His will... lol, at least that appears to be what you are
saying, because I cannot see another model that fits the ethics you follow...

 

[FreeNChrist]

I am sorry. I did not explain the link I was trying to make.
You were saying we are cleansed, once for all, which I say amen to.

But like the seed and the sower, believers do not necessarily follow through.

Now some people in your camp have tried to separate out our old man from
the new man, and said the old man is no more.

Others say the old man or the flesh is still present, it is just a choice which
you emphasise, the flesh or the spirit.

Now after such a long time talking about such issues I thought you might be
more accomodating, but obviously not, so I apologise.

By the way I was not seeking your praise or approval, I was just sharing.

And the subject of the op, is how can the Holy Spirit dwell in an impure believer.
It is an interesting question, especially if you hold to a faith position where sin
does not defile the believer at all, because it is already forgiven, so in some
ways a contradiction.

Now I like such questions, because they expose a tension.

Paul for instance uses the reason christians do not go to prostitutes is because
you cannot be one between a holy temple and a vessel that is defiled.

Not the argument I would have come up with, but then I am not Paul.

The point is that the answer to the OP is that the Spirit doesn't dwell in an unclean vessel, He dwells in a vessel He has made clean. The rest of what you have written like what you always write is your own take on what others believe, that you try to use as a platform for you to espouse your own personal beliefs. All of which bears little to no resemblance to reality or the truth.

 

[Adstar]

We are Deemed Holy By the Blood of the LORD Jesus Christ..

By Believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for salvation.. We are Holy through Him imputing His righteousness on all who believe.. Not because of our own righteousness which is as filthy rags to God.. But His perfect Righteousness..

 

[Adstar]

We are Deemed Holy By the Blood of the LORD Jesus Christ..

By Believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for salvation.. We are Holy through Him imputing His righteousness on all who believe.. Not because of our own righteousness which is as filthy rags to God.. But His perfect Righteousness..

Galatians 3 KJV
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 ¶Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[Talishi]

Which brand of milk is your favorite for slurping?
Unfortunately, Paul did not ask this vital question ...
when he was chastising believers for still being on milk
instead of chewing on and digesting meat.

Apparently Paul didn't clear his statement with Peter before publishing it.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.

 

[PeterJens]

The point is that the answer to the OP is that the Spirit doesn't dwell in an unclean vessel, He dwells in a vessel He has made clean. The rest of what you have written like what you always write is your own take on what others believe, that you try to use as a platform for you to espouse your own personal beliefs. All of which bears little to no resemblance to reality or the truth.

Thankyou for your graceful words.

In the end in life all we have is our own take on reality and the truth.
It will always differ between people, and in truth, it is a little bit of an illusion.

As I write these words they will summarise an idea that I believe as I write.
After i have finished they are one set of ideas that maybe reflect all or part of it.

Mainly it is just the current position, but it might also be a mistake or have a wrong emphasis.

What staggard me is when one idea takes over another, and you express something you did not
mean. I upset someone because they said they did this, and I took it to be their actual position.

But thank you for being so kind to my take and my insights. It is a blessing to understand how
I fail to bless some, while to others I am like a breadth of fresh air. If I could , I would want
everyone to express what they can, as much as possible, simply because often these locked up
insights are just partial ideas, that need to grow and be worked through, and this never happens
if they are locked up inside.

But then you need the emotional armour to know God really, really, really loves you, and the reception
matters much less than the expression. So dear friends, God bless you, and learn deeply to share from
the heart, not matter the response.

 

[PeterJens]

We are Deemed Holy By the Blood of the LORD Jesus Christ..

By Believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for salvation.. We are Holy through Him imputing His righteousness on all who believe.. Not because of our own righteousness which is as filthy rags to God.. But His perfect Righteousness..

This is all nice theology, but I have not found ones mind or dwellings actually
work like this theology. Some are very much still addicted to various behaviours
that are not healthy and some sinful.

It is obvious the apostles where truly holy people, cleansed and focused on things
above. Not so sure many church goers even understand this language let alone
live it or love it. When I was talking to one brother, we were talking about sharing
our experience in Christ, and he was rather lost.

It is why some religious people get so up into this quoting of scripture, but not
so good at making it real, when you wake up with urgent deadlines to meet.