Women Pastors? Help me.

[Dino246]

Scriptures plainly teach that Husband shall rule over the wife.

Gen_3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he (HUSBAND) shall rule over thee (WIFE).

I read this passage as a foretelling, not a command. It simply doesn't make sense to me as a command. Again, why would God, Who is good and wise, assign sinful males to "rule over" females? Does it not make more sense that God was foretelling what simply "would" happen, not what "should" happen?

And Scriptures plainly reveals that it is important who was formed first, consider:

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (God seems to think it pretty important to mention it in His Word) And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Yes, and this passage makes great sense if Paul is refuting a proto-Gnostic heresy. It is awkward otherwise.

... Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in EVERY THING.

Can you explain what the bolded words mean in the next Holy Inspired by God verse?

Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, OBEDIENT to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Doesn't Obedient mean to OBEY? Aren't the aged women, according to God (the Word), suppose to be teaching the wives to be OBEDIENT to their own husbands? Not in America for sure. Get stoned if you do, in a country where the women have become men, and the men have become obedient to their wives.

Taking one English translation of a word which is translated in several different ways and arguing that it means what you want it to mean is disingenuous. "Subject" and "submit" are far more common selections for the word translated "obedient" above.

... That is deference.

Actually, what you described is called deflecting, and I don't accept your accusation.

You teach it is not hierarchy, Scriptures plainly teaches it is. Husband is to Rule over the wife. Wife is to obey her husband. woman was made for the man. Husband is the Head of the wife. Hierarchy for sure. Jesus is over the Church, yes? Is it not instructed of wives to submit to their husband even as the Church to Jesus? Hierarchy.

You're welcome to see it that way. I don't. Because of the way you and I differ on the interpretation of Genesis 3:16, we likely won't agree on the rest of the passages. I see the hierarchy (among humans) as a direct result of the fall, not the intention of God. Ephesians 5:21 teaches mutual submission; if the husband "rules over" his wife, he is not practicing mutual submission, and it is far more likely that he will become a tyrant than a godly husband if he follows the "rule over" interpretation.

Where is that written anywhere in all of Scriptures Old or New, that interpretation of Scriptures belong to humans? Sure we are to try to understand what Scriptures is trying to teach us or tell us, and sure we are to study Scriptures, knowing what is where, and what is written and what is not written. But when someone interprets the Scriptures to fit into their own false doctrines this is not of God.

Where does it say that the interpretation of Scripture doesn't belong to us? Interpretation includes taking the symbols on the page, assigning meaning to them based on known patterns, and assigning meaning to the collection of patterns. You can't get away from interpretation; you do it every time you read the Scripture. The point Peter was making is that only God can rightly interpret prophecy... he wasn't talking about Scripture in general. As to your last sentence above, I agree.

 

[wolfwint]

I read this passage as a foretelling, not a command. It simply doesn't make sense to me as a command. Again, why would God, Who is good and wise, assign sinful males to "rule over" females? Does it not make more sense that God was foretelling what simply "would" happen, not what "should" happen?





Taking one English translation of a word which is translated in several different ways and arguing that it means what you want it to mean is disingenuous. "Subject" and "submit" are far more common selections for the word translated "obedient" above.



Actually, what you described is called deflecting, and I don't accept your accusation.



You're welcome to see it that way. I don't. Because of the way you and I differ on the interpretation of Genesis 3:16, we likely won't agree on the rest of the passages. I see the hierarchy (among humans) as a direct result of the fall, not the intention of God. Ephesians 5:21 teaches mutual submission; if the husband "rules over" his wife, he is not practicing mutual submission, and it is far more likely that he will become a tyrant than a godly husband if he follows the "rule over" interpretation.



Where does it say that the interpretation of Scripture doesn't belong to us? Interpretation includes taking the symbols on the page, assigning meaning to them based on known patterns, and assigning meaning to the collection of patterns. You can't get away from interpretation; you do it every time you read the Scripture. The point Peter was making is that only God can rightly interpret prophecy... he wasn't talking about Scripture in general. As to your last sentence above, I agree.

Well Dino, in germany the most denominatians and the protestant church will give you a fat: agree! And you are swiming on the mainstream. Only few denominations teach what the bible teaches in this way. If you interprete the scripture in your way. It is your responsibility! But you cant tell me that this is biblical. No one could show from the bible that womans can be Pastors too. The biblical witness is clear and you have make big efforts for to discuss them away!
BTW I know that we will stay in minority, because the people like to hear what they want and not what is right!

 

[oldhermit]

Well Dino, in germany the most denominatians and the protestant church will give you a fat: agree! And you are swiming on the mainstream. Only few denominations teach what the bible teaches in this way. If you interprete the scripture in your way. It is your responsibility! But you cant tell me that this is biblical. No one could show from the bible that womans can be Pastors too. The biblical witness is clear and you have make big efforts for to discuss them away!
BTW I know that we will stay in minority, because the people like to hear what they want and not what is right!

Have you ever noticed that in scripture, the majority is always wrong.

 

[Dagallen]

Well Dino, in germany the most denominatians and the protestant church will give you a fat: agree! And you are swiming on the mainstream. Only few denominations teach what the bible teaches in this way. If you interprete the scripture in your way. It is your responsibility! But you cant tell me that this is biblical. No one could show from the bible that womans can be Pastors too. The biblical witness is clear and you have make big efforts for to discuss them away!
BTW I know that we will stay in minority, because the people like to hear what they want and not what is right!

I would have to disagree ! You are still applying the laws of Moses.

 

[Stephen63]

In the OT, a prophetess would speak to all equally, even to the king.

In prophetic ministry, the prophets "spoke for God", meaning their words carried God's authority when they spoke.

Prophetesses spoke for God.

Prophetesses spoke for God.

Prophetesses spoke for God.

Just checking to see if you got that.

Now, let's look in the NT:

Acts 2:17‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; 18EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.

I know..... some cry, "but they're not like the OT prophets"

They fulfill all three types of OT prophets mentioned.

Sorry, but that ole excuse is an unproven lie.

It saddens me that "theologians" can't tell the difference between family teaching & church leadership teaching.

It's all in the context.

 

[wolfwint]

I would have to disagree ! You are still applying the laws of Moses.

And you are still not answer my questions!

 

[wolfwint]

Have you ever noticed that in scripture, the majority is always wrong.

Yes, I know!

 

[oldhermit]

So why then he createt us as man and woman? Or he did not. And he gave also not different outlook and sex. Why he never choosen a woman as Priest, King ore Apostle?
There are plenty Scripture which shows that a wife should be submissive to her husband. We find also Scripture that a woman should not have authority over man. And even if you through away Scripture like Genesis 2 and 3 ore 1. Tim.2,12-14, ore 1. Tim. Chapter 3 were it is clear statet that eldest/ruler/overseer/leader can only be man.
You find out of Junia ( and it is not clear it is meant a male ore female) no proof for woman leadership in the church. Why not?

The reason people refuse to accept the prohibition of 1Cor 14 and 2Tim 2 is I think related to two things that are systemic. First is the desire to justify the exercise of one's own will and the other is that they completely miss the concept of symbolism that is linked to the woman in scripture.

 

[Stephen63]

The reason people refuse to accept the prohibition of 1Cor 14 and 2Tim 2 is I think related to two things that are systemic. First is the desire to justify the exercise of one's own will and the other is that they completely miss the concept of symbolism that is linked to the woman in scripture.

I really would like to know how women prophesied in the house church if they're not allowed to speak at all. This gift is for christian edification, & we all know most prophesying was done in the house church assembly.

There's no mistake that women prophets existed in the OT & the NT.

 

[oldhermit]

I really would like to know how women prophesied in the house church if they're not allowed to speak at all. This gift is for christian edification, & we all know most prophesying was done in the house church assembly.

There's no mistake that women prophets existed in the OT & the NT.

Yes, there were women prophets in the early Church but they were expressly commanded to remain silent in the assembly of the Church.

 

[StanJ]

Well Dino, in germany the most denominatians and the protestant church will give you a fat: agree! And you are swiming on the mainstream. Only few denominations teach what the bible teaches in this way. If you interprete the scripture in your way. It is your responsibility! But you cant tell me that this is biblical. No one could show from the bible that womans can be Pastors too. The biblical witness is clear and you have make big efforts for to discuss them away!
BTW I know that we will stay in minority, because the people like to hear what they want and not what is right!

And this is exactly how people like you get around their cognitive dissonance.

 

[StanJ]

Yes, there were women prophets in the early Church but they were expressly commanded to remain silent in the assembly of the Church.

Where are those words found in the NT? I have to surmise you have not read very many posts in this thread?

 

[oldhermit]

Where are those words found in the NT? I have to surmise you have not read very many posts in this thread?

Well, I am late coming to the thread but it really does not matter what has already been discussed. The prohibition of 1Cor 14 and 2Tim are very clear and there is simply no way to explain it away.

 

[Magenta]

... the concept of symbolism that is linked to the woman in scripture.

Hello OH Could you please expand on this? You have piqued my curiosity! Thank you

 

[StanJ]

Well, I am late coming to the thread but it really does not matter what has already been discussed. The prohibition of 1Cor 14 and 2Tim are very clear and there is simply no way to explain it away.

I have already explained them MANY times. There is no prohibition if you read these scriptures in PROPER context.

 

[oldhermit]

I have already explained them MANY times. There is no prohibition if you read these scriptures in PROPER context.

Then perhaps you can explain the context of 1Cor 14 to me.

 

[Stephen63]

Yes, there were women prophets in the early Church but they were expressly commanded to remain silent in the assembly of the Church.

OK..... how did they prophesy then? Take somebody outside the house? That does sound ridiculous, doesn't it?

Luke 2:36And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years and had lived with herhusband seven years after her marriage, 37and then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers. 38At that very moment she came up and began giving thanks to God, and continued to speak of Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.

 

[oldhermit]

Hello OH Could you please expand on this? You have piqued my curiosity! Thank you

Ask me again after a little while and I will be happy to show you. I first want to see how this conversation goes.

 

[oldhermit]

OK..... how did they prophesy then? Take somebody outside the house? That does sound ridiculous, doesn't it?

Luke 2:36And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years and had lived with herhusband seven years after her marriage, 37and then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers. 38At that very moment she came up and began giving thanks to God, and continued to speak of Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.

Do not confuse the woman's role in the temple with that of the priests. The temple was much more than just the inner courtyard and the holy of holies.

 

[Magenta]

Ask me again after a little while and I will be happy to show you. I first want to see how this conversation goes.

Okay Thank you