Women Pastors

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
2,938
1,609
113
48
Mike Winger has done extensive videos about women in ministry. His channel is worth checking out.

He goes over A LOT of stuff, but the videos are well worth watching.

As for me, I am a complementarian, and I believe that male headship is for the church and for the home. Nowhere else necessarily, though.
 
Sep 24, 2012
604
160
43
Perhaps, just perhaps, the women feeling the call of the Holy Spirit into ministry should leave those church groups/denominations that forbid them to enter the Ministry and become Preachers, Pastors, Evangelists, Teachers? They should obey the call of the Spirit and not the traditions of man IMO.
Why would the Holy Spirit call a woman to be a teacher in the church (or anything that has to do with teaching in some capacity within a church setting) when Paul suffered not a woman to teach and Paul wrote so in scripture? Unless you mean teaching in a woman's group, but even then the issue is troubling because what if God wants only men to be teaching in a church setting and what Paul wrote accounts for that? If I were a woman I would be careful in attributing my want to be a teacher in the church to a calling by the Holy Spirit when someone wrote in scripture that they do not suffer a woman to teach.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,787
2,068
113
Why would the Holy Spirit call a woman to be a teacher..... when someone wrote in scripture that they do not suffer a woman to teach.

I posted a whole article on why Paul was likely speaking for that time period, to those women and that church. Here it is again.

5 WAYS THE BIBLE SUPPORTS WOMEN PREACHING

Bible exegesis 101 requires us to look at what comes right before and right after this passage to help us understand what it means. Isolating 1 Timothy 2:12 is taking the Bible out of context.

1. Paul’s word’s in 1 Timothy 2 were most likely about specific women in Timothy’s church being unruly, not all women in the church throughout all times.

Paul (the one who wrote that passage) says in 1 Timothy that he doesn’t permit a woman, who is learning, to ‘usurp authority’ over a man. Which is quite different than saying she can’t teach or have any authority over men. Usurping authority is to steal away or to take what isn’t hers rightfully. Sort of like overthrowing a legitimate government so you can have more power. It’s not right for men or women to do that. Most scholars believe it is applying to the specific situation in the church where specific women who were uneducated, were also disruptive (and usurping the actual leaders).

However, if we choose to believe that the Bible always provides universal statements, then we need to be consistent and apply the same logic to the rest of the passage.
1 Timothy also says a woman/women shouldn’t braid our hair or wear gold( no wedding rings) pearls, or anything expensive (most likely to church). That we are to sit in silence in the church. So no “Sunday best” clothes allowed, especially if it comes with jewelry. Also no female greeters, worship leaders, or choir members. Plus no women reading scripture or giving announcements.

Again, we either need to be consistent and remove women from all of the roles mentioned in church (and make sure they dress really plainly while we’re at it), or we need to acknowledge that those instructions were most likely geared toward a few specific women who were being intentionally disruptive.

2. The Bible’s instructions around preaching and using other gifts to lead in the Church are explicitly given to men AND women.
In 1 Corinthians, Paul tells the “brothers and sisters” to instruct, reveal, and prophesy to one another. When Paul and other New Testament writers give instructions to Christians about preaching and leading in the Church, they use phrases like “all of you” or “every one of you”. Which absolutely includes women!

1 Cor. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied

1 Cor. - 26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

1Cor 14:31For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

Peter- Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

Eph- 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

3. The Bible’s original text offers a lot of clarity that translations do not.

Growing up none of us used an original manuscript to learn the texts and very, very few people are fluent in the original languages, the cultural context all of these letters were written in, and the way the church has shaped our understanding for centuries. So we rely on those few experts to translate the passages and teach us as much as possible.

All that to say that there are thousands of Biblical scholars who are familiar with those sources who teach that the ban on women in the church is a human mandate, not a divine one.

4. God gives us several examples of female leadership (over men and women) in the Old and New Testaments.


  • Deborah was an Old Testament judge, meaning she led Israel before they had a king (Judges 4-5). She was known for wisdom, spiritual insight, and success in battle. And as an important aside, there is ZERO indication in scripture that her role was assumed because there were no qualified men willing or able to lead. God called her uniquely, just as he called the other judges.
  • Anna was a prophet who dedicated her life to praying, praising, and teaching in the temple. She was also one of the first people to meet Jesus as an infant, and recognized and proclaimed his divinity (Luke 2:25-38).
  • Huldah was an Old Testament prophet who was a trusted source for interpreting and understanding scripture. She was even sought out by the king of Israel to teach his men about the meaning of prophecies from God (2 Kings 22:11-20).
  • Priscilla was part of the church in Ephesus, and co-lead with her husband in teaching and evangelizing (Acts 18:24-26).
  • Phoebe was a deacon in a formal position of leadership at a church near Rome. Paul praised her for leadership and impact, and asked the rest of the church to follow her instructions and aid her in her ministry work (Romans 16:1-2).
  • Mary Magdalene was one of Jesus’ followers throughout his ministry, and was the first person to see him after his resurrection. She is also the one who received the first call to preach the good news of his resurrection.

5. The first preachers of the gospel were women.
When Jesus was coming to earth, the first people to know and share about his arrival were his mother, Mary, and her cousin, Elizabeth. Women. When Jesus was in the early stages of his earthly ministry, one of the first proclaimers (which is the literal translation of the word preacher) was the woman at the well in Samaria. And when Jesus resurrected after his death, the ones who were instructed to share about his resurrection were women. Jesus directly told Mary Magdalene to go proclaim (preach) the good news to his male disciples. Did you catch that? It came straight from Jesus!

Make no mistake – it’s not just because the women happened to be there when the men weren’t. Jesus appeared out of thin air to his followers multiple times before he ascended into heaven. He absolutely could have gone straight to the men and given them the instruction to preach. But he didn’t – he chose women.

I thought that was a good article to get a real discussion going. Annnd y'all have fun, I'm out.
 
Mar 18, 2024
7
5
3
There is no such thing as "women pastors". Women are to keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,163
2,177
113
I have a strange memory of the womb that hard to explain as much as hard to believe, I'm sure. but there was light (and this is why I've always wondered at what I was 'seeing'). Imagine going out in the light of day, and closing your eyes while looking at the sun, that's the best I can do to explain this unforgettable memory. And, when one of the ladies brought up John the Baptist having the Holy Spirit before he was born... this is the first thing that came to mind...

There are dreams that I can't forget as a child, of stairways ascending into the clouds, of people close in relation to me that I knew but didn't know at the time. And looking back, I see God kept me this way throughout my childhood, even though I didn't "know" Him. I prayed in tears salvation (and for my mother's) at around the age of seven at a slumber party with my friend Robin. I don't remember now if she initiated it asking me if I knew about God or if I asked her if she knew about God (but I do remember asking after God to a lot of different people). Then, the summer I was to turn 14 attending a church service with another friend, the Reverend Dennis preached on baptism and called for those wishing for a baptism, and I was the only one that stood for it (although I'm not sure if it was from lack of interest from others or they likely were already baptized). Anyway, that was the last service I attended, and I sort of wandered into the wilderness, but not without always keeping my search after God, at least within my life ambition, and 10 years later, I ultimately "stepped through the Door" (and it felt like coming Home) and have never looked back. Was I lost while wandering? Well, for sure I didn't know where I was going, but I'm also pretty sure God never took His eyes off of me.

I sure I'm no John the Baptist, and in nowise begrudge just being Jane the Plain. However, I've known, for sure, that God doesn't consider me anything near ordinary for a while now (over 40 years), even if the entire world would tell me to believe so.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,787
2,068
113
There is no such thing as "women pastors". Women are to keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Already been shared and discussed as to why that could be meant for that time and the women of that church and not to every woman everywhere for all time. Clearly there were times woman spoke in service. Read the article I posted in my last post.
 
Mar 18, 2024
7
5
3
Already been shared and discussed as to why that could be meant for that time and the women of that church and not to every woman everywhere for all time. Clearly there were times woman spoke in service. Read the article I posted in my last post.
Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.
 
Sep 24, 2012
604
160
43
I posted a whole article on why Paul was likely speaking for that time period, to those women and that church. Here it is again.

5 WAYS THE BIBLE SUPPORTS WOMEN PREACHING

Bible exegesis 101 requires us to look at what comes right before and right after this passage to help us understand what it means. Isolating 1 Timothy 2:12 is taking the Bible out of context.

1. Paul’s word’s in 1 Timothy 2 were most likely about specific women in Timothy’s church being unruly, not all women in the church throughout all times.

Paul (the one who wrote that passage) says in 1 Timothy that he doesn’t permit a woman, who is learning, to ‘usurp authority’ over a man. Which is quite different than saying she can’t teach or have any authority over men. Usurping authority is to steal away or to take what isn’t hers rightfully. Sort of like overthrowing a legitimate government so you can have more power. It’s not right for men or women to do that. Most scholars believe it is applying to the specific situation in the church where specific women who were uneducated, were also disruptive (and usurping the actual leaders).

However, if we choose to believe that the Bible always provides universal statements, then we need to be consistent and apply the same logic to the rest of the passage.
1 Timothy also says a woman/women shouldn’t braid our hair or wear gold( no wedding rings) pearls, or anything expensive (most likely to church). That we are to sit in silence in the church. So no “Sunday best” clothes allowed, especially if it comes with jewelry. Also no female greeters, worship leaders, or choir members. Plus no women reading scripture or giving announcements.

Again, we either need to be consistent and remove women from all of the roles mentioned in church (and make sure they dress really plainly while we’re at it), or we need to acknowledge that those instructions were most likely geared toward a few specific women who were being intentionally disruptive.

2. The Bible’s instructions around preaching and using other gifts to lead in the Church are explicitly given to men AND women.
In 1 Corinthians, Paul tells the “brothers and sisters” to instruct, reveal, and prophesy to one another. When Paul and other New Testament writers give instructions to Christians about preaching and leading in the Church, they use phrases like “all of you” or “every one of you”. Which absolutely includes women!

1 Cor. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied

1 Cor. - 26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

1Cor 14:31For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

Peter- Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

Eph- 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

3. The Bible’s original text offers a lot of clarity that translations do not.

Growing up none of us used an original manuscript to learn the texts and very, very few people are fluent in the original languages, the cultural context all of these letters were written in, and the way the church has shaped our understanding for centuries. So we rely on those few experts to translate the passages and teach us as much as possible.

All that to say that there are thousands of Biblical scholars who are familiar with those sources who teach that the ban on women in the church is a human mandate, not a divine one.

4. God gives us several examples of female leadership (over men and women) in the Old and New Testaments.


  • Deborah was an Old Testament judge, meaning she led Israel before they had a king (Judges 4-5). She was known for wisdom, spiritual insight, and success in battle. And as an important aside, there is ZERO indication in scripture that her role was assumed because there were no qualified men willing or able to lead. God called her uniquely, just as he called the other judges.
  • Anna was a prophet who dedicated her life to praying, praising, and teaching in the temple. She was also one of the first people to meet Jesus as an infant, and recognized and proclaimed his divinity (Luke 2:25-38).
  • Huldah was an Old Testament prophet who was a trusted source for interpreting and understanding scripture. She was even sought out by the king of Israel to teach his men about the meaning of prophecies from God (2 Kings 22:11-20).
  • Priscilla was part of the church in Ephesus, and co-lead with her husband in teaching and evangelizing (Acts 18:24-26).
  • Phoebe was a deacon in a formal position of leadership at a church near Rome. Paul praised her for leadership and impact, and asked the rest of the church to follow her instructions and aid her in her ministry work (Romans 16:1-2).
  • Mary Magdalene was one of Jesus’ followers throughout his ministry, and was the first person to see him after his resurrection. She is also the one who received the first call to preach the good news of his resurrection.

5. The first preachers of the gospel were women.
When Jesus was coming to earth, the first people to know and share about his arrival were his mother, Mary, and her cousin, Elizabeth. Women. When Jesus was in the early stages of his earthly ministry, one of the first proclaimers (which is the literal translation of the word preacher) was the woman at the well in Samaria. And when Jesus resurrected after his death, the ones who were instructed to share about his resurrection were women. Jesus directly told Mary Magdalene to go proclaim (preach) the good news to his male disciples. Did you catch that? It came straight from Jesus!

Make no mistake – it’s not just because the women happened to be there when the men weren’t. Jesus appeared out of thin air to his followers multiple times before he ascended into heaven. He absolutely could have gone straight to the men and given them the instruction to preach. But he didn’t – he chose women.

I thought that was a good article to get a real discussion going. Annnd y'all have fun, I'm out.
I think it's possible Paul was only addressing that one specific church, but him saying that Adam was formed first and that Eve was deceived would make what he wrote applicable to every woman in every church.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,787
2,068
113
Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.

This is a discussion forum, not a church service. And you didn't read what I wrote. We discuss here, if you can't handle that, this isn't the place for you.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,787
2,068
113
I think it's possible Paul was only addressing that one specific church, but him saying that Adam was formed first and that Eve was deceived would make what he wrote applicable to every woman in every church.

Yet the Bible says that Adam brought sin into the world...
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,163
2,177
113
Jeremiah 44
7So now, this is what the LORD God of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: Why are you doing such great harm to yourselves by cutting off from Judah man and woman, child and infant, leaving yourselves without a remnant?
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,319
3,619
113
1 Corinthians 14 is pretty clear that it's not just for one specific church but a commandment from the Lord for all of them:

"Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant." 34-38

If the law says women are to be submissive, does that only apply to some groups and not others? Paul asks, "Or was it you only that it [the word of God] reached?" He's clearly talking about a universal doctrine that applies to all churches.
 
Sep 24, 2012
604
160
43
Yet the Bible says that Adam brought sin into the world...
True, I don't see why that matters here though. I've been rereading it and I can sort of see the other side of the issue based on how you read the text. I think I might have been reading it rather ignorantly at first. I think the way Paul writes though, at least with how it reads in the KJV, makes it so that it's fine to model what he wrote there for every church.
 
Sep 24, 2012
604
160
43
1 Corinthians 14 is pretty clear that it's not just for one specific church but a commandment from the Lord for all of them:

"Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant." 34-38

If the law says women are to be submissive, does that only apply to some groups and not others? Paul asks, "Or was it you only that it [the word of God] reached?" He's clearly talking about a universal doctrine that applies to all churches.
Oh ok, well this settles it.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,787
2,068
113
True, I don't see why that matters here though. I've been rereading it and I can sort of see the other side of the issue based on how you read the text. I think I might have been reading it rather ignorantly at first. I think the way Paul writes though, at least with how it reads in the KJV, makes it so that it's fine to model what he wrote there for every church.
Let me put it this way, there is enough doubt that a sister who feels called into ministry should not be condemned or feel condemned for doing so. I was in traveling ministry, at times I spoke to the congregation when I felt led. I wasn't wrong for doing so. I had the opportunity to get ordained but I was traveling so much that I was unable to do it. I have no doubt that I was called into ministry. Those years have passed now but I do not feel condemned, nor should I,for what I did.
 
Sep 24, 2012
604
160
43
No it doesn't settle it. Again, read the article I provided. If women were allowed to speak at one time, why not another? It doesn't make sense.
I looked at it briefly, if you mean when men and women come together as it makes reference to in the article, that could mean anywhere, but what it says in 1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that women should keep silent in churches.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,787
2,068
113
I looked at it briefly, if you mean when men and women come together as it makes reference to in the article, that could mean anywhere, but what it says in 1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that women should keep silent in churches.


1 Cor. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied

1 Cor. - 26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

1Cor 14:31For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

Peter- Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

Eph- 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord...


Nothing that indicates it's God's will that woman should never speak in service. If a woman must be completely silent then she cannot sing, nor pray, nor interpret or give tongues, or even praise the Lord. I think people miss the context of what is being said and the background of what was going on added to the culture of the time. It makes no sense that God would expect a woman to sit like a bump on a log in service yet be called to do everything else in the church. Use some reasoning skills folks.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
I looked at it briefly, if you mean when men and women come together as it makes reference to in the article, that could mean anywhere, but what it says in 1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that women should keep silent in churches.
Uh…. in churches? …as in a building? :rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.