Works Complete Faith?
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Except Romans 8:4 states,
"... that the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF the law might be fulfilled IN us [note it does not say "BY us"
] who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit".
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Not sure how you can say what you are saying about Romans 7, when Paul STARTS OUT that section (in vv.1-4), by saying,
1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead [/have been put to death] to the law by [by means of] the body of Christ; that [for / eis] ye should be married [/joined] to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that [SO THAT] we should bring forth fruit unto God.
"... that the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF the law might be fulfilled IN us [note it does not say "BY us"
] who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit".____________
Not sure how you can say what you are saying about Romans 7, when Paul STARTS OUT that section (in vv.1-4), by saying,
1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead [/have been put to death] to the law by [by means of] the body of Christ; that [for / eis] ye should be married [/joined] to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that [SO THAT] we should bring forth fruit unto God.
2. Are you asking about how Romans 7 is not about the saved Christian? I provided lots of proofs. Not sure if you mean that.
Except Romans 8:4 states,
"... that the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF the law might be fulfilled IN us [note it does not say "BY us" ] who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit".
____________
Not sure how you can say what you are saying about Romans 7, when Paul STARTS OUT that section (in vv.1-4), by saying,
1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead [/have been put to death] to the law by [by means of] the body of Christ; that [for / eis] ye should be married [/joined] to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that [SO THAT] we should bring forth fruit unto God.
"... that the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF the law might be fulfilled IN us [note it does not say "BY us"
] who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit".____________
Not sure how you can say what you are saying about Romans 7, when Paul STARTS OUT that section (in vv.1-4), by saying,
1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead [/have been put to death] to the law by [by means of] the body of Christ; that [for / eis] ye should be married [/joined] to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that [SO THAT] we should bring forth fruit unto God.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/works-complete-faith.212639/page-18#post-5161401
E
I like Scripture verses, but if you flood the thread with them, there is no discussion of the original topic left.
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Yes, in Romans 7:1-6, he is laying the groundwork, based on Torah ("through the Law I died to the Law" Gal 2:19--the Law, Itself, is the basis for freedom from the Law, thus the Jew's freedom from It is an integral part of his "keeping" It!), for why the Jews should not think Paul's doctrine of freedom from the Law is odd, and to stop thinking they should serve through the Law ("You call yourself a Jew, and boast in the Law..."), and start thinking they should serve through the Spirit.
Then, in vv7-24, he is describing the life of a Jew "when we were in the flesh" (Christians are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit Ro 8:9), "under Law", which Ro 6:14 says is a life of being "mastered by sin"--and, so, you see that the life described in vv7-24 is the life of a Jew being "mastered by sin" by "the strength of sin" which "is the Law" (1 Co 15:45).
So, the lost Jew cries out for a Deliverer (as the children of Israel did in Egypt--our salvation is compared to the Jews' salvation from slavery in 1 Co 10), and Jesus (Who is "the prophet like Moses [the Deliverer]") comes and sets him free.
He is progressing through that timeline.
Then, we see the state of the Christian: "the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death in the flesh".
So, no, vv7-24 aren't about a Christian, it's just a run-through of the life of a lost Jew before he is saved, then him crying out for a Deliverer, him getting deliverance (aka salvation), and him rejoicing that he is "not in the flesh but in the spirit", because if he were "in the flesh", he would be a servant of Sin's Law, but, since he is "in the spirit", he is a servant of God's Law.
Then, in vv7-24, he is describing the life of a Jew "when we were in the flesh" (Christians are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit Ro 8:9), "under Law", which Ro 6:14 says is a life of being "mastered by sin"--and, so, you see that the life described in vv7-24 is the life of a Jew being "mastered by sin" by "the strength of sin" which "is the Law" (1 Co 15:45).
So, the lost Jew cries out for a Deliverer (as the children of Israel did in Egypt--our salvation is compared to the Jews' salvation from slavery in 1 Co 10), and Jesus (Who is "the prophet like Moses [the Deliverer]") comes and sets him free.
He is progressing through that timeline.
Then, we see the state of the Christian: "the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death in the flesh".
So, no, vv7-24 aren't about a Christian, it's just a run-through of the life of a lost Jew before he is saved, then him crying out for a Deliverer, him getting deliverance (aka salvation), and him rejoicing that he is "not in the flesh but in the spirit", because if he were "in the flesh", he would be a servant of Sin's Law, but, since he is "in the spirit", he is a servant of God's Law.
Luk 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Act 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Act 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses
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Acts 20:28 - Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
We need to always watch out for such folks. I've been a member of multiple Christian forum sites for over 10 years now and it's not uncommon to run into such folks.
We need to always watch out for such folks. I've been a member of multiple Christian forum sites for over 10 years now and it's not uncommon to run into such folks.
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Good point. If one reads Romans 2:5-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.
*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.
These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.
*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.
These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
This will lay to rest the faulty pretensions of @romans113336
In devastating fashion.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/83112127523/
In devastating fashion.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/83112127523/
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What about the many, upon many of believers who have no bible, no discipleship, no church they attend, nothing. Do you really expect them to live a life that's honoring to God? What is the JSOC for anyway? What about those who have built upon the foundation, wood, hay, and stubble?
1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. Paul tells us to take heed how we build upon the foundation.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. The foundation is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Building upon the foundation...
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. At the judgment seat of Christ...
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. Rewards are handed out to the one who properly builds their life upon the foundation.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. The man who does not build their life properly upon the foundation, he suffers the loss of rewards, but he himself is saved.
No matter how beautiful or ugly the building may be, the foundation is what matters most.
1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. Paul tells us to take heed how we build upon the foundation.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. The foundation is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Building upon the foundation...
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. At the judgment seat of Christ...
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. Rewards are handed out to the one who properly builds their life upon the foundation.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. The man who does not build their life properly upon the foundation, he suffers the loss of rewards, but he himself is saved.
No matter how beautiful or ugly the building may be, the foundation is what matters most.
Romans 2:5-11 is not in conflict with 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. All believers build their life on the foundation of Jesus Christ. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:12 - Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Rewards and loss of rewards based on works does not negate Romans 2:5-11. Try not to over think it.
Rewards and loss of rewards based on works does not negate Romans 2:5-11. Try not to over think it.
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Agreed, but their are many believers who do not build their life properly once the foundation is settled. The ideal situation is that the believer goes on to good works through discipleship, bible study, preaching, and the like, but not everyone has those things in their life. I don't expect a believer to live a godly life if they do not have much spiritual things pouring into them.
Even with all those things mentioned above, it is still difficult to honor the Lord. There will be many who are saved, but will receive very little or no rewards at the JSOC.
Even with all those things mentioned above, it is still difficult to honor the Lord. There will be many who are saved, but will receive very little or no rewards at the JSOC.
Another devastating refutation of @romans113336 's pretensions.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/671963315253/
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/671963315253/
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1. Except that Romans 2 judgment can result in being "repaid... eternal life", and it is based on works (and Gentile believers are cited as examples of men who are "doers of the law" and will be "repaid... eternal life"), which is contrary to your theology.
"2. The Galatians lost their foundation (Gal 5:4).
Paul tells the Corinthians to "test yourselves see if you are in the faith".
I don't grant the foundation is immovable.
There are too many verses to the contrary.
"2. The Galatians lost their foundation (Gal 5:4).
Paul tells the Corinthians to "test yourselves see if you are in the faith".
I don't grant the foundation is immovable.
There are too many verses to the contrary.
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