Dispensationalism
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Hi Pamella!
this is just kind of a heads-up... and maybe you already know this... JGIG is doing a lot of writing over on this thread
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137844-dear-bibleguy.html
some of what she's talking about would be related to your question
my feeling is that sacrifices aren't coming back because they are part of the law, which was a tutor... so going back 'under' the tutor would be strange... imo...
this is just kind of a heads-up... and maybe you already know this... JGIG is doing a lot of writing over on this thread
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137844-dear-bibleguy.html
some of what she's talking about would be related to your question
my feeling is that sacrifices aren't coming back because they are part of the law, which was a tutor... so going back 'under' the tutor would be strange... imo...
Understood. I'm not unfamiliar with the theory.
But the sacrifices God requires in the New Covenant are sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving from His Living Body, not dead animals on an altar. Also, the commemoration of the Sacrifice of Christ was given by Christ Himself - at the Last Supper. We commemorate - remember - His Work in the bread and the wine, not by offering sacrifices at an altar.
And since Christ's Priesthood is in eternal effect by an oath from God, the Old Covenant Priesthood is not coming back to officiate over sacrifices offered on an altar in a rebuilt temple. If man decides to do it anyway, it will not be sanctioned by God and will be an abomination and insult to the Work and High Priesthood of Christ, putting Him to shame.
No, any animal sacrifices are out, in light of the High Priesthood of Christ, Who is the ONLY Priest/Priesthood recognized by God in the New Covenant and Who is not legally able to oversee animal sacrifices required by the Law. Again, the Old Covenant is NOT coming back - Christ's Priesthood is PERMANENT by a OATH from God.
Couple that with NO animal sacrificial system in the New Covenant and you can see where I don't see how the Dispensational model is workable when considering the Permanent, Perfect High Priesthood of Christ (not to mention His once-for-all, for-all-time sacrifice).
The letter to the Hebrews is extremely clear on these points
.
-JGIG
But the sacrifices God requires in the New Covenant are sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving from His Living Body, not dead animals on an altar. Also, the commemoration of the Sacrifice of Christ was given by Christ Himself - at the Last Supper. We commemorate - remember - His Work in the bread and the wine, not by offering sacrifices at an altar.
And since Christ's Priesthood is in eternal effect by an oath from God, the Old Covenant Priesthood is not coming back to officiate over sacrifices offered on an altar in a rebuilt temple. If man decides to do it anyway, it will not be sanctioned by God and will be an abomination and insult to the Work and High Priesthood of Christ, putting Him to shame.
No, any animal sacrifices are out, in light of the High Priesthood of Christ, Who is the ONLY Priest/Priesthood recognized by God in the New Covenant and Who is not legally able to oversee animal sacrifices required by the Law. Again, the Old Covenant is NOT coming back - Christ's Priesthood is PERMANENT by a OATH from God.
Couple that with NO animal sacrificial system in the New Covenant and you can see where I don't see how the Dispensational model is workable when considering the Permanent, Perfect High Priesthood of Christ (not to mention His once-for-all, for-all-time sacrifice).
The letter to the Hebrews is extremely clear on these points
.-JGIG
In case you missed it, here's reference to an article I wrote about why it doesn't make sense that sacrifices would come back:
I tried to copy here an article I wrote elsewhere about the Ezekiel passage, but it was a bit long. Here's the link:
I think you'll find that article and the links at the end to give you some food for thought
.It was written over five years ago, so some of the links may not work now, but a few of the key ones that I checked do.
-JGIG
As for verses in Hebrews that tell us there will be no more sacrifices, one needs to note that what Christ has accomplished 1) makes more sacrifices unnecessary, and 2) offering the blood of bulls and goats would put the Cross of Christ to shame.
23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever. (from Heb. 7)
26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever. (from Heb. 7)
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (from Heb. 9)
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.”He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (from Heb. 10)
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (from Heb. 10)
Add to those this:
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. (from 1 Tim. 2)
Some of things from the above:
- Jesus is a High Priest forever, by the power of an indestructible life.
- When Jesus entered the heavenly Temple, He SAT DOWN, something priests under the Old Covenant could never do In fact, a chair was not one of the furnishings in the Temple - priests were prohibited from sitting down - their work was never done! When Jesus offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down - a rather significant statement that His work was finished, just as He said.
- Since Jesus is the Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant and has offered one time, for all time, one sacrifice for sins, two things are the clear:
Jesus' sacrifice was once, for all, for all time, so
- He will not be officiating over further sacrifices, and
- since there is One Mediator between man and God, the Levitical priesthood (who legally could officiate over sacrifices in the Old Covenant) cannot exist at the same time as Christ's Priesthood (Christ's Priesthood being forever), so . . . .
- the Levitical preisthood is not coming back. Therefore sacrifices are not coming back.
Hope that helps
,-JGIG
Brother you may believe it. I believe there is a different between the volk of Israel and christians and also has god different plans with Israel and christians. Because of our different views about hermeneutic and exegetic we cant discuss about it and so we will not solve it. But i am shure we will see in future who is rigth. We should not condem each other, because it is not worth to dispute about future questions.
We should not condem each other, because it is not worth to dispute about future questions.
A
I'll speak for myself.
It brought the whole bible together even the OT prophets so I could see it as a whole without slicing it up in disjointed segments.
But I guess whatever floats your boat
It brought the whole bible together even the OT prophets so I could see it as a whole without slicing it up in disjointed segments.
But I guess whatever floats your boat
But how did dispensationism tie it all together?
All I heard is Israel will be saved differently from the gentiles, which seems odd to me since God saves His faithful elect throughout the whole Bible.
Mainly because there are tons of prophecies in the OT which the Church cannot fulfill. So those prophecies although promised go unfulfilled making God look impotent or a liar. How do non-dispys get around this for the most part? Spiritualize the text!
God is not finished with Israel yet. When the Church has been taken, God will once again be directly dealing with Israel for the most part and thus ...
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:25-26)
All are saved by grace thru faith.
God is not finished with Israel yet. When the Church has been taken, God will once again be directly dealing with Israel for the most part and thus ...
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:25-26)
All are saved by grace thru faith.
there are too many to list between Isaiah and Malachi and the Psalms. Here is one that does not pertain to the Church.
“It will come about in all the land,” Declares the Lord, “That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it. “And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’ ” (Zechariah 13:8-9).
“It will come about in all the land,” Declares the Lord, “That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it. “And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’ ” (Zechariah 13:8-9).
A
Isn't that about Jesus and His disciples?
*“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,against the man who is close to me!”declares the Lord Almighty.“Strike the shepherd,and the sheep will be scattered,and I will turn my hand against the little ones.*In the whole land,” declares the Lord,“two-thirds will be struck down and perish;yet one-third will be left in it.*This third I will put into the fire;I will refine them like silverand test them like gold.They will call on my nameand I will answer them;I will say, ‘They are my people,’and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’” - Zechariah 13:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah13:7-9&version=NIV
Matthew 26:31 ►
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'
*“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,against the man who is close to me!”declares the Lord Almighty.“Strike the shepherd,and the sheep will be scattered,and I will turn my hand against the little ones.*In the whole land,” declares the Lord,“two-thirds will be struck down and perish;yet one-third will be left in it.*This third I will put into the fire;I will refine them like silverand test them like gold.They will call on my nameand I will answer them;I will say, ‘They are my people,’and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’” - Zechariah 13:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah13:7-9&version=NIV
Matthew 26:31 ►
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'
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Yes verse 7 as you quoted it was fulfilled but not 8 and 9 unless you start allegorizing which Amillennialists like to do and the Dispensationalists don't.
Often a prophecy can have two fulfillments even in the same verse. Compare...
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
(Isa 11:2-5)
with
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
(Luk 4:18-19)
In Isaiah 11 the unfulfilled portion is in red and the fulfilled is in Luke 4.
Often a prophecy can have two fulfillments even in the same verse. Compare...
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
(Isa 11:2-5)
with
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
(Luk 4:18-19)
In Isaiah 11 the unfulfilled portion is in red and the fulfilled is in Luke 4.
the 2/3rd's slaughtered refers to the unbelieving Jews in the tribulation and the 1/3rd refers to the remnant that will turn to their Messiah.
The passage goes on (No chapter divisions in the Hebrew scrolls) to say in context...
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(Zec 14:1-4)
Obviously referring to Israel and not the Church, unless you want to do some heavy allegorizing.
The passage goes on (No chapter divisions in the Hebrew scrolls) to say in context...
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(Zec 14:1-4)
Obviously referring to Israel and not the Church, unless you want to do some heavy allegorizing.