Let's Take a Deeper Look at this Hyper Stuff

[mpaper345]

We are saved by grace through faith,which when led by the Spirit,faith is active in our life,which we will do the works of the Spirit,and obtain grace.

Faith without works is dead,but if led by the Spirit,you will do the works of the Spirit,and faith will be active in your life,to obtain grace.

Be led of the Holy Spirit,and all things will fall in to place,faith,and grace,which we love God,and people,that is the fulfilling of the law,and anything else that is not a law of love,is a work which we are not saved by anything that is a work,outside of love.

 

[PeterJens]

Incoherent faith

Sin => repentance => confession => faith => forgiveness => love => righteous living

Sin => forgiveness => failure => dependency => imputed holiness / righteousness / purity

In traditional faith we become righteous living people through being transformed through faith
and following Jesus.

In the HG model, dependency and failure increase, so we depend more on Christ, and are looked
at only through the Christ filter.

There appears to be no point where you actually become righteous, with a pure heart, walking
in open communion with Christ. It seems to be an ethic to realise the deeper the failure the
more dependent you are, so rather than feeling condemned you should rejoice.

If the goal is to be transformed into being Christs people, this new faith seem to be walking
further and further away from Christ the more mature they become.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Incoherent faith

Sin => repentance => confession => faith => forgiveness => love => righteous living

Sin => forgiveness => failure => dependency => imputed holiness / righteousness / purity

In traditional faith we become righteous living people through being transformed through faith
and following Jesus.

In the HG model, dependency and failure increase, so we depend more on Christ, and are looked
at only through the Christ filter.

There appears to be no point where you actually become righteous, with a pure heart, walking
in open communion with Christ. It seems to be an ethic to realise the deeper the failure the
more dependent you are, so rather than feeling condemned you should rejoice.

If the goal is to be transformed into being Christs people, this new faith seem to be walking
further and further away from Christ the more mature they become.

I would phrase that slightly differently myself. I would say...the deeper my failure to try to be good, the clearer my poverty of spirit becomes to me, so the more I cling to God to keep the promises for me and in me that He said He would. And this then leads to rejoicing because when I begin to depend on Him I begin to see very real victory over the enemies inside me. When this happens, I understand what Paul meant when he said: I will therefore glory in my weakness because when I am weak, then I am strong!

 

[valiant]

Incoherent faith

Sin => repentance => confession => faith => forgiveness => love => righteous living

Sin => forgiveness => failure => dependency => imputed holiness / righteousness / purity

You missed out a bit from the second -

sin - forgiveness - dependency - imputed holiness/righteousness/purity - security - advance in righteousness/holiness/purity - humility - glorification

In traditional faith we become righteous living people through being transformed through faith
and following Jesus.

You mean traditional like the Roman Catholics?. You mean you are not justified, reconciled wholly to God, eternally secure? You will falter in the end,

In the HG model, dependency and failure increase, so we depend more on Christ, and are looked
at only through the Christ filter.

My experience is the opposite. When I held your views I failed. When I found out about eternal security I advanced in holiness. But I will agree my dependence was wholly on Christ to give me victory,

There appears to be no point where you actually become righteous, with a pure heart, walking
in open communion with Christ.

That is a libel and you should be ashamed. But we never in this life become wholly righteous. Paul at the end of his life said he was the chief of sinners. Those who think otherwise are the SELF-RIGHTEOUS,

I will ignore your further calumnies,

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I can actually see what peter is saying there. I don't believe he was trying to libel anyone. I believe he was saying what it really appears like to him. I have had the same complaint as peter before with certain doctrines of churches and declaring ourselves to be holy and righteous, just as righteous AS Christ, instead of saying Christs' righteousness is mine because all things that are His are mine. To me, it appears to be saying there is such a thing as an unholy holiness and an unrighteous righteousness. (Because we know that a righteous man DOES what is righteous.) So it appears to me to be saying that I myself am righteous even if or when I do unrighteously.

 

[oyster67]

If the stories were true, which I am doubtful, then the people who returned to their sinful lifestyle in licentiousness didn't understand Grace any better than legalists or judaizers.

They've turned away from the Lord. Which I cannot fathom.

If you had an easy yoke and rest why would you go back to being heavily burdened? Did you just not understand?

I completely agree that it is hard to believe that anyone would do it.

 

[oyster67]

We were lost because of our SIN (a conceptual understanding), not because of our SINS (daily short falls in living perfect) If that failure were not expected, and anticipated, and COVERED, we would not be told we have an advocate WHEN WE DO fall s​hort by doing sins.

I completely agree on this, Willie. It is not about sins; it is about sin.

 

[oyster67]

But Jesus tells us to "sin no more" and to flee from it and not to live sinful lives. Sinning freely and not even trying to live by Gods will while going "Jesus will save me!" doesn't seem right. I know people like that, and they have caused a lot of problems for people I know.

Yes no one deserves salvation, and we are saved by grace. But that isn't the same as God telling us we can just go nuts and do whatever we want and hell be okay with it.

I believe that when a born-again person "goes nuts and does....", it signifies a must deeper problem that just committing a couple sins.

 

[PeterJens]

I can actually see what peter is saying there. I don't believe he was trying to libel anyone. I believe he was saying what it really appears like to him. I have had the same complaint as peter before with certain doctrines of churches and declaring ourselves to be holy and righteous, just as righteous AS Christ, instead of saying Christs' righteousness is mine because all things that are His are mine. To me, it appears to be saying there is such a thing as an unholy holiness and an unrighteous righteousness. (Because we know that a righteous man DOES what is righteous.) So it appears to me to be saying that I myself am righteous even if or when I do unrighteously.

I am focusing on one simple point, what you actually become.
We cannot become in reality Children of the Most High without God working within us.
To become more aware of failure, is not strength, it is moving more away from God.
Being changed into Christs likeness, seeing things move, being healed, love pouring when
once it was not there.

I have seen models people have made which are not about change at all, just deeper
realisation of the gap. That is condemnation in its ultimate form.

When Jesus said He desired we might be one with the Father just as He is one with Him,
it was not a pipe dream, it is about a profound understanding of what purity really is.

I do not see people testifying to this wonderous developing fellowship, yet that is what
it means to grow in Christ. I do read people not understanding some of the simplest
emotional truths, yet claiming to know God better than me. I find this puzzelling. If
those who claim to walk in love, love not some distant defended empathy or interlectual
theology, where you can never get close to someone, yet cannot express the very heart
of Christ, I do not believe them. It is like a deep sea diver saying they have never been
more than two meters or 6 ft under water, then they are not a deep sea diver.

It is like a believer calling another believer believing foolishness. This is very close to
unforgivable sin. I speak of what I know, not some slight inspiration from heaven I got
yesterday, this is life. People have many excuses, because their emotions push them
there, but without humbleness and a pure heart, it can become you can never return.

 

[Grace777x70]

To the natural mind of man - spiritual realities in Christ are foolishness to that mindset. The worldly humanistic mindset cannot see the truths of being a new creation in Christ - that we have a new heart now - created in righteousness and holiness.

How we get transformed outwardly to reflect the new man in Christ is by the renewing of our minds when we see Christ and behold His glory as in a mirror.

We need the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of God to us and what happened to us when we received Christ in order to grow up in Christ - other then that we are just using the world's philosophy to try to clean up the flesh and we just use "Christian-eze" to try to legitimize this worldly way of thinking which is not according to Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NASB)

[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

[SUP]13 [/SUP] which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words
.
[SUP]14[/SUP] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am focusing on one simple point, what you actually become.
We cannot become in reality Children of the Most High without God working within us.
To become more aware of failure, is not strength, it is moving more away from God.
Being changed into Christs likeness, seeing things move, being healed, love pouring when
once it was not there.

I have seen models people have made which are not about change at all, just deeper
realisation of the gap. That is condemnation in its ultimate form.

When Jesus said He desired we might be one with the Father just as He is one with Him,
it was not a pipe dream, it is about a profound understanding of what purity really is.

I do not see people testifying to this wonderous developing fellowship, yet that is what
it means to grow in Christ. I do read people not understanding some of the simplest
emotional truths, yet claiming to know God better than me. I find this puzzelling. If
those who claim to walk in love, love not some distant defended empathy or interlectual
theology, where you can never get close to someone, yet cannot express the very heart
of Christ, I do not believe them. It is like a deep sea diver saying they have never been
more than two meters or 6 ft under water, then they are not a deep sea diver.

It is like a believer calling another believer believing foolishness. This is very close to
unforgivable sin. I speak of what I know, not some slight inspiration from heaven I got
yesterday, this is life. People have many excuses, because their emotions push them
there, but without humbleness and a pure heart, it can become you can never return.

I understand what you are saying. Gods grace cannot be made into a deal to cheat death. That didn't work for Israel and it won't work for us. The heart and mind WILL be changed. The end point is not being able to live forever. Gods' goal is that we become more and more like Jesus and less and less like ourselves before we met Him.

This is why we can't look to see if someone is perfect in doctrine to see if they are our brother or sister. We are told we will know them by their fruit. I understand that some are still my brothers, though very spiritually immature and still very carnal at times, but we will see improvement in the fruits of the Spirit in them. We will recognize Gods' working in them because we will see growth in the fruits. And we will see love and real contrition when they see they have caused divisions or spoken harshly to a brother. God shows them and they come back and put things right.

 

[PeterJens]

To the natural mind of man - spiritual realities in Christ are foolishness to that mindset. The worldly humanistic mindset cannot see the truths of being a new creation in Christ - that we have a new heart now - created in righteousness and holiness.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor 1:18

But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.
1 Cor 1:23

Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.
Col 3:16

Paul is talking about it appearing foolishness that through the cross we might know love,
and life, when in the world it is power and influence that matter.

It is by sacrifice and laying down our lives that we find life, eternal life. This is the worlds
eyes is just failure, giving up the glories of what is possible for something that always
disappoints and is empty. So many end up despising love as merely idealistic optimism.

Now what is being addressed above is the idea by having faith in Christ we are made
perfect and eternal, a new spirit is put in us, which is our real identity, which we just now
have to recognise and everything will be fine.

This has nothing to do with establishing a real relationship with God, learning how to love,
letting love reign in your life and flow from your heart, this is another faith which is saying
this new identity just needs to take over.

There is no emphasis on purification, working through sin, emotional trauma, resolving
relationships of the past, becoming a new person through God working in us.

It is like getting a new package which we just unwrap. The words seem the same, but
their meaning is so different. To them I am an enemy, trying to create self righteousness,
rather than just learning to walk in righteousness and take ownership of the gift of life
Christ has given me. For us we are taking responsibility of the healing and freedom Christ
has put in our lives, for them it is just letting go, and letting God, as if things just happen.

This is like saying going to school is about just playing games and not working. You soon
learn if you do this, you waste the very gift of teachers, books, information etc that is
at your feet. It is just a denial of why you go to school in the first place.

 

[PeterJens]

Forgive us but with a track record of certain people constantly "applying" what they "think" they heard... and when we go look at it - it is not what the original people were really saying.
If you can provide a quote from a reputable source then we can see what was really said. Then we can discuss it intelligently and within it's proper context things were said too.

This is a simple distraction argument. The subtext is saying "You are lying, and if you
bring the real facts we will show you how wrong you are."

The truth is everyone holds to beliefs for very real emotional reasons. We will always revert
to them no matter what unless our emotional basis shifts. People love to believe they are
intellectual, and believe things for very good reasons, when in reality we believe things then
justify our belief by argument.

It is also why many arguments fail because they are built on priorities and assumptions.
Take a simple assumption. I fail to be good, it is because I am not meant to be good, it is
just to show me how dependant on God I am. If you deny this you are just a hypocritical
liar, who is evil and trampling on the cross of Christ.

Now my assumptions are simple. Sin is sin, no matter who does it, and good works are good
works no matter who does it. This is why sinners repent, and why we all fall short.
This is a basic ethic behind the bible.

Now once you change this basic assumption, you create a different world and faith.
God sent the bible to tell this one simple story, time and time again because we will do
everything to excuse sin and not resolve it. The cross is all about seeing sin for what it is
and taking responsibility and getting up and following Christ.

To follow Christ is to obey His commands.

 

[Grace777x70]

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Ephesians 4:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.



We have a new heart and a new spirit within us now if we are in Christ. God is not trying to clean up the flesh. He wants us to walk according to the spirit which has been created in righteousness and holiness. This will stop the flesh from manifesting "it's" desires and lusts. ( Romans 6:23 )

We will always have the flesh with us until we go to be with the Lord but by walking according to the new man in Christ - we will walk in life now in this earth while in these bodies of flesh.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.


Paul says not to let anyone take you captive through philosophy and traditions of man and not according to Christ.

Colossians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

[SUP]10 [/SUP] and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

( this is referring to the new person in Christ - the inner man of the heart - now we renew our minds to walk outwardly in this life what "already is" in our new hearts )

have been made complete = perfect passive

Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.

Passive means something is being done to you - you are not doing it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor 1:18

But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.
1 Cor 1:23

Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.
Col 3:16

Paul is talking about it appearing foolishness that through the cross we might know love,
and life, when in the world it is power and influence that matter.

It is by sacrifice and laying down our lives that we find life, eternal life. This is the worlds
eyes is just failure, giving up the glories of what is possible for something that always
disappoints and is empty. So many end up despising love as merely idealistic optimism.

Now what is being addressed above is the idea by having faith in Christ we are made
perfect and eternal, a new spirit is put in us, which is our real identity, which we just now
have to recognise and everything will be fine.

This has nothing to do with establishing a real relationship with God, learning how to love,
letting love reign in your life and flow from your heart, this is another faith which is saying
this new identity just needs to take over.

There is no emphasis on purification, working through sin, emotional trauma, resolving
relationships of the past, becoming a new person through God working in us.

It is like getting a new package which we just unwrap. The words seem the same, but
their meaning is so different. To them I am an enemy, trying to create self righteousness,
rather than just learning to walk in righteousness and take ownership of the gift of life
Christ has given me. For us we are taking responsibility of the healing and freedom Christ
has put in our lives, for them it is just letting go, and letting God, as if things just happen.

This is like saying going to school is about just playing games and not working. You soon
learn if you do this, you waste the very gift of teachers, books, information etc that is
at your feet. It is just a denial of why you go to school in the first place.

The emphases ARE there on those things. They are just emphasized on the inside between God and each man. The reason we think nothing is said of these important things, or that a man doesn't know of them, is because no one chooses to talk about them. Instead, we just keep fighting about the same things over and over as if we are back in the days of Martin Luther.

I choose to talk about these things you list because I wish someone had talked about them to me so I could have been helped in this race that is about learning to trust God more and more. It makes some people uncomfortable to talk about their inside but I just keep doing it anyway because I need practical help to grow me and build me in my faith, not going over the same things over and over that create quarrels but do nothing to help one another.

The race is this: Okay, you have believed the good news and been washed and received the Holy Spirit. Now, children, we're going to have a race! Do you see that finish line sign way over there? Do you see what it says? It says:complete trust in Him and all He has said. That is the finish line and it is what you are racing toward. Now, GO!

 

[LaurenTM]

Originally Posted by Willie-T

We were lost because of our SIN (a conceptual understanding), not because of our SINS (daily short falls in living perfect) If that failure were not expected, and anticipated, and COVERED, we would not be told we have an advocate WHEN WE DO fall s​hort by doing sins.



I completely agree on this, Willie. It is not about sins; it is about sin.​

and that is basically getting back to my op

SIN causes the actions described in the op, NOT any kind of grace

if you doubt that, study Romans...I agree with people who state that if you do not understand Romans, or have not studied Romans, you are missing perhaps the largest chunk of your foundation in Christ

people pick this verse and that verse to support non-biblical views and argue with others who try to point out their scewed theology

it becomes all about their 'feelings' or their 'thoughts' and or 'experiences'

the Bible is about OBJECTIVE truth and if someone does not see that, and wishes to make 30 turns around the mulberry bush, hijack threads and go on and on about humanistic reasonings and vague hints at personal philosophy, they should start a thread to discuss those things and not take another thread captive and lower the objective by trying to have no objective whatsoever

Read Romans and find out what Paul the Apostle had to say about those very things

people can 'sound' like they know something; they can 'sound' sincere, but you will know them by their ramblings and lack of objective truth

the Bible is full of objective truth...you can get from earth to heaven if you follow the map

 

[LaurenTM]

Christians working to diminish the significance of God's grace? Saying it should not be overemphasized? And appealing to the OT for justification of that? It is nothing more than a rejection of Christ Himself. The Apostle Paul, the apostle of grace, would be very surprised and disappointed to say the least.

Folks don't seem to understand that for Paul grace isn't the imparting of just some "thing" from God, but of God Himself. That in Jesus Christ the Gift and the Giver are as Tozer says, "organically one and inseparable". That, "always the two are found together. The Apostle Paul…never disassociates God's grace from God's crucified Son."

“If you take away the grace of God from the gospel you have extracted from it its very life-blood, and there is nothing left worth preaching, worth believing, or worth contending for. Grace is the soul of the gospel: without it the gospel is dead. Grace is the music of the gospel: without it the gospel is silent as to all comfort.” - Charles Spurgeon

yup

I am convinced people really need a wake up call

there are so many actual lies inserted into the accusations, that it becomes a despicable and desperate attempt to prove oneself right at all costs

we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us...that is indeed an impartation

we cannot develop grace and there is no earthly model to follow

we can only receive what God offers...and again and I will keep saying it because it is true...there is no hyper grace

there is God's grace to us who believe and receive by faith and then their is sin

grace does not cause sin. the fallen human nature sins and that is why Christ died..because of our SIN...

way back in Genesis, God said to Cain that sin was crouching at the door and desired to have him

when you sin, you are giving in to your natural inclination; ONLY the blood of Christ can cleanse you of that and that ONLY as you believe...have faith in and trust in...the blood of Christ to REMOVE the consequences of sin

 

[DP]

I agree...that type of thinking will always come when the true gospel of the grace of God is preached. This is what makes God's grace "hyper" ( - if I can use that term in a good sense and not in a derogatory way )

When we preach the gospel of the grace of Christ and no one says "What?...are you saying we can just go out and sin because of grace?" - if no one says that to us when we are preaching the grace of God. Then we have not preached the gospel like Paul did.

The very nature of the gospel leads the carnal mind to think that it means we can sin all we want because of grace and this is also what the natural mind that some Christians live by...which is what they hear when they hear the true gospel being preached that grace believers are saying it's ok to sin all you want now because of grace.....the reality is what is being said is the complete opposite of what those listening with their natural minds think is being said.

We don't need to water down the gospel because it might get mis-understood as it takes away the full strength of the completed and awesome work that our Lord Jesus Christ did for all of us..

The answer to shall we sin so that grace may abound is in Romans chapters 6 and 7.

I don't want you or others to misunderstand that Romans 6 Scripture from Apostle Paul that I posted. Paul was making it plain there that Christ's Grace is not a license to sin, and that as non-believers when we yielded our members (i.e., flesh) to do sin, now we are called to yield our members (our flesh) to righteousness and holiness, which is about how we live.

But some of you seem to think Paul was saying that just by BELIEVING The Gospel we entered some mystical state of automatic righteousness where we can no longer sin, and that kind of idea is NOT what Paul was teaching there.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't want you or others to misunderstand that Romans 6 Scripture from Apostle Paul that I posted. Paul was making it plain there that Christ's Grace is not a license to sin, and that as non-believers when we yielded our members (i.e., flesh) to do sin, now we are called to yield our members (our flesh) to righteousness and holiness, which is about how we live.

But some of you seem to think Paul was saying that just by BELIEVING The Gospel we entered some mystical state of automatic righteousness where we can no longer sin, and that kind of idea is NOT what Paul was teaching there.

I agree that Paul says grace is NOT a license to sin and no one that I have seen has ever said that. We are responsible with what we do with these bodies while on this earth as we hold this treasure in us ( Christ Himself ) in this earthen vessel.

And no one says that no one can sin as we can yield to the flesh. But as far as being righteous in our new man in Christ. There is no question. The new creation in Christ- has been created in righteousness and holiness. The real you in Christ the inner man will never be more "righteous" then the day you received Christ and were born-again.

There are fruits of righteousness but that is a different subject.

The understanding of the new creation in Christ and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.


Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.

Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here righteousness comes by faith.

Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Here when we believe - we are righteousness.

Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are in the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believers are called righteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".

Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.

Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation.

Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Ok..that's enough..there are tons more....

 

[LaurenTM]

I don't want you or others to misunderstand that Romans 6 Scripture from Apostle Paul that I posted. Paul was making it plain there that Christ's Grace is not a license to sin, and that as non-believers when we yielded our members (i.e., flesh) to do sin, now we are called to yield our members (our flesh) to righteousness and holiness, which is about how we live.

But some of you seem to think Paul was saying that just by BELIEVING The Gospel we entered some mystical state of automatic righteousness where we can no longer sin, and that kind of idea is NOT what Paul was teaching there.

well, I don't want YOU or ANYONE else to keep repeating the fallacy that people who accept and understand the grace of God believe we can do whatever we want

your statement is sheer nonsense. real and complete and utter nonsense

some of you seem to think you can create an alternate reality by repeating the same fallacy over and over

it ain't working bro

it's just tiresome, sad and oh so been there done that