Hi Popeye: Solid principle perverted use. God does save his people from His wrath, but he allows His people to go through tribulation. Paul said that we are appointed to suffer tribulation..but not the wrath of God. Lot was removed before the wrath of God but before that he suffered tribulation. Noah was saved and did not experience God's wrath, but he did have to endure tribulation. The church is removed before the wrath of God but not before the tribulation. First tribulation and then rapture, the tribulation that Jesus described and that He said the church must go through is clearly NOT the wrath of God, Jesus described it as a time of great persecution against those who believe in Him. I realize that the pre-trib folks will never admit that the tribulation is not the wrath of God because by so doing they would eliminate the pre-trib teaching.
TRIBULATION LIE
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I didn't know He was raptured? He was kept from it in this world, not taken out of it.
Kept from LOCAL judgment. But he couldn't be kept from himself.
Kept secure in THIS WORLD. He went through and came out at the other end. The ark was a type of salvation, not a type of Heaven
actually they fled into the desert, they were not removed. Satan's flood (the armies) went after them. Funny type of rapture.
Pure surmise to suit your view. I Thess 4 suggests ALL were taken, and it was at the end.
The foolish virgins HAD NO OIL. They were unsaved.
Proof?
.
Those who escaped REMOVED THEMSELVES. Any who remained suffered. But there is no thought of divine action.
That's funny. I find it all through the New Testament, although it was as He judged..
Kept from LOCAL judgment. But he couldn't be kept from himself.
Kept secure in THIS WORLD. He went through and came out at the other end. The ark was a type of salvation, not a type of Heaven
actually they fled into the desert, they were not removed. Satan's flood (the armies) went after them. Funny type of rapture.
Pure surmise to suit your view. I Thess 4 suggests ALL were taken, and it was at the end.
The foolish virgins HAD NO OIL. They were unsaved.
Proof?
.
Those who escaped REMOVED THEMSELVES. Any who remained suffered. But there is no thought of divine action.
That's funny. I find it all through the New Testament, although it was as He judged..
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Hi PW: Concerning the Olivet Discourse, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, we are caught between a rock and a hard place, those of us who refuse to take one side and ignore the other side. If we are truthful, then we know from history that PART of what Jesus described would happen, has happened, and PART of what Jesus described would happen, has NOT happened. As long as folks want to pretend that nothing that Jesus said would happen has happened, or that all that Jesus said would happen has happened, then it will just be like a dog chasing his tail because there is a lie in both ideas. Jesus described an event that appears to be one event yet history proves that it was not one event but two, one was the destruction of Israel and the other is the end of the age and the destruction of the world as we know it. Both have similarities, yet the first was for Israel only and the last is for the world and the end of the age. Look at the facts, it is obvious that Jesus spoke much of His message against unbelieving Israel and their coming end, however it is also obvious that the heavens have not been shaken and Christ has not returned to gather His church. So what was to happen in THAT GENERATION did indeed happen in THAT generation, however the time of Christ return and the end of the age has NOT yet happened. I realize the way it is written it appears that EVERYTHING Jesus described had to happen in that generation, however history proves that part of it did happen and part of it did not happen. It is not without precedent that God has given a prophecy that appears as one event but was actually two events with part being fulfilled close at hand and part being fulfilled after many years later.
P
Tribulation is trouble.
Wrath is tribulation.
You need to ask yourself why you need those dynamics redefined.
Stop acting like you have some special exclusive revelation because you alone" know" wrath is not tribulation,when every child that receives discipline knows that parent is handing plenty of "trouble" to that kid as the wrath of that parent is administered.
According to your barriers you invent,those drowning in the flood never thought they had trouble.(tribulation)
Ridiculous.
Wrath is tribulation.
You need to ask yourself why you need those dynamics redefined.
Stop acting like you have some special exclusive revelation because you alone" know" wrath is not tribulation,when every child that receives discipline knows that parent is handing plenty of "trouble" to that kid as the wrath of that parent is administered.
According to your barriers you invent,those drowning in the flood never thought they had trouble.(tribulation)
Ridiculous.
For the moment, forget the 2000 years.
Think only in terms of Order of Events.
Do you accept that the phrase "But before all these" in Luke 21:12 [ clearly ] indicates that "what follows" actually occurs before "what precedes" that verse?
Think only in terms of Order of Events.
Do you accept that the phrase "But before all these" in Luke 21:12 [ clearly ] indicates that "what follows" actually occurs before "what precedes" that verse?
Actually Gary,
Try this on and see if it fits. The transition from 70 AD to the future end-of-the-world is the verse below in blue. Christ finishes with the immediate 70 AD wrath return then mentions that heaven and earth will pass away then begins to tell what that will be like.
70 AD "the Great Tribulation":
Mat 24:4-34
Mark 13:2-30
Luke 17:22-24
Luke 21:6-32
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Future:
Mat 24:35-51
Mark 13:31-37
Luke 17:26-37
Luke 21:33-36
The conditions at the end are: world living in huge sin like the days of Noah. Nobody seems to have a care in the world (forgive the pun). It's kinda like it is now.
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Didn't mean to skip over this Gary. Let's re-organize it then.
Here Jesus is telling His disciples (4 of them) what is going to happen. He is not discussing the entire Church age. Peter, James, and Andrew where indeed martyred, John wasn't.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; [SUP]15 [/SUP]for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But not a hair of your head shall be lost. [SUP]19 [/SUP]By your patience possess your souls.
Now turn the clock forward a little and we see these events unfold leading up to the finale, the destruction of the temple, city and its total desolation.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”[SUP] 10 [/SUP]Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.
"The end" referenced above is the end of the Mosaic Age, the end of the Jewish nation. But before they end, the city of Jerusalem was to endure 3.5 years of "great tribulation" the likes of which no nation will ever see. Once the Romans surrounded the city and cut off their food supply, the people started starving to death by the tens of thousands. There was civil war inside, two fractions of tyrants, John and Simon, and their bands of robbers would steal, rape and murder the people while fighting between them. They would engage the Romans too but didn't do that so much until they had to because it took time for the Romans to become a threat against their massive walls.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The above is the great tribulation wrath against Jerusalem because they rejected and killed their Messiah. Rome was used to carry out this wrath but it was God and the Lamb doing it.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26 [/SUP]men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
The above takes place on the night the Romans finally broke through to the temple. For a year a star shaped like a sword was above the city and a comet was in the sky for a whole year. Storms and earthquakes rocked the city. The massive gate to the temple swung open all by itself and it took 20 men to close it. The Jews built a wooden wall inside of the outer wall in case the Romans broke through, which they did. The Jews were ready and set fire to the Roman battering rams and catapults. It appeared that the Jews would be victorious then suddenly a massive wind came up and blew the fire back against the Jews burning down their wall and clearing a path for the invaders.
False Christs led 10,000 men to the top of the temple where they were promised deliverance from God, instead the temple was set on fire. At the very moment the temple was ablaze the below happens.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
Chariots and armies of angels were seen riding around in the clouds overhead. A loud voice cried out, "Let us remove from here hence." Not a single Christian was killed while the Romans slaughtered the Jews until they could no longer raise their swords.
THAT, WAS THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND WRATH UPON THOSE PEOPLE.
Here Jesus is telling His disciples (4 of them) what is going to happen. He is not discussing the entire Church age. Peter, James, and Andrew where indeed martyred, John wasn't.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; [SUP]15 [/SUP]for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But not a hair of your head shall be lost. [SUP]19 [/SUP]By your patience possess your souls.
Now turn the clock forward a little and we see these events unfold leading up to the finale, the destruction of the temple, city and its total desolation.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”[SUP] 10 [/SUP]Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.
"The end" referenced above is the end of the Mosaic Age, the end of the Jewish nation. But before they end, the city of Jerusalem was to endure 3.5 years of "great tribulation" the likes of which no nation will ever see. Once the Romans surrounded the city and cut off their food supply, the people started starving to death by the tens of thousands. There was civil war inside, two fractions of tyrants, John and Simon, and their bands of robbers would steal, rape and murder the people while fighting between them. They would engage the Romans too but didn't do that so much until they had to because it took time for the Romans to become a threat against their massive walls.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The above is the great tribulation wrath against Jerusalem because they rejected and killed their Messiah. Rome was used to carry out this wrath but it was God and the Lamb doing it.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26 [/SUP]men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
The above takes place on the night the Romans finally broke through to the temple. For a year a star shaped like a sword was above the city and a comet was in the sky for a whole year. Storms and earthquakes rocked the city. The massive gate to the temple swung open all by itself and it took 20 men to close it. The Jews built a wooden wall inside of the outer wall in case the Romans broke through, which they did. The Jews were ready and set fire to the Roman battering rams and catapults. It appeared that the Jews would be victorious then suddenly a massive wind came up and blew the fire back against the Jews burning down their wall and clearing a path for the invaders.
False Christs led 10,000 men to the top of the temple where they were promised deliverance from God, instead the temple was set on fire. At the very moment the temple was ablaze the below happens.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
Chariots and armies of angels were seen riding around in the clouds overhead. A loud voice cried out, "Let us remove from here hence." Not a single Christian was killed while the Romans slaughtered the Jews until they could no longer raise their swords.
THAT, WAS THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND WRATH UPON THOSE PEOPLE.
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P
[h=2]It’s Not What You Know, But Who You Know That Matters[/h][FONT="]Everyone in Jericho had heard about the God of Israel and all but Rahab were destroyed on the day of battle. Rahab’s faith saved her. When she believed in her heart that only One Who is God in Heaven above and Earth below could have done the things she had heard about, He went to great lengths to reveal Himself to her, sending 2 witnesses to testify of His power and love. Immediately after confessing Him as God, she was marked with a sign that guaranteed her security (Ephe. 1:13-14), called out from all the others in Jericho (Rom. 8:29-30), hidden on the day of battle (Isa. 26:20-21 & Rev. 3:10), and brought alive into the family of the Redeemer (1 Thes. 4:16-17). Just like you and me.
The story of rehab is the model of the rapture.. please study it.[/FONT]
The story of rehab is the model of the rapture.. please study it.[/FONT]
What tribulation did LOT go through?????scriptures please.
What was the tribulations Noah had to go through????scriptures please
Show me where it says that,,,,Scriptures please. OH, and find out where it says that Daniels 70th week is not God's wrath. Scriptures please.........
Show me where it says there is no Rapture. scriptures please......
It is evident you do not believe in the millennium, because in the Post-trib scenario, there is no one alive to populated the earth for the 1000 years reign of Jesus Christ....Post Trib rapture.......up and down to Heaven in a hurry. No Marriage supper. No bema seat, what about the Sheep and Goat judgement. So, we just go from the 2nd advent of Jesus Christ to the Great White Throne Judgement and nothing in between???????????. I don't know who you guru is but he is wrong and YOU are on the wrong track. Dangerous in these times..because TIME IS SHORT!
I suppose you believe that the only people who will be raptured will be those who believe in 'pre-trib' rapture...?
Bladerunner - you're contradicting yourself here. You tell me you don't believe in a partial rapture, but yet you respond to Gary with a yes, confirming that you believe only believers holding to the pretrib view will be raptured. This is the definition of the "partial rapture" theory, which is unbiblical.
I'm pretrib, not preterist, but have to say that eschatology is a non salvational topic. We are not saved by our eschatology at all. We're saved by grace through faith alone in the blood of Jesus on the cross. Nothing added. Yet you're claiming that anyone who doesn't agree with the pretrib view will be left behind and will then "find God" as if implying none of these preterists are saved because they hold to a different eschatology view.
Yes, many of the lost who are left behind will get saved and become martyrs, but you are implying that preterists are among the lost and I don't agree with this. We are not saved based on our view of end times.
Hi Katy-follower,
I would have to disagree with that. Though we as believers are saved by grace through faith, there are beliefs and teachings that would put people under the banner of false teachers. Below is an example:
"Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some."
Though they considered themselves to be in Christ, Paul called their teaching that the resurrection had already taken place as godless chatter, that it would spread like gangrene, that they had departed from the truth and that by this teaching they were destroying the faith of some. Regarding this, preterist's believe that Christ has already returned and that the resurrection has already taken place, which puts them under the same condition as Hymenaeus and Philetus. Below is another example:
"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
Paul wrote the above to the Galatian church. But because some were leading them back to observing the law, he says that by doing so and remaining in that state, that the were alienated from Christ and had fallen away from grace.
These are just a couple of examples. So yes, what we believe and teach does make a difference. For there are lords many and gospels many, but there is only one true Lord and one true gospel. Those who are teaching false doctrine, though claiming to be in Christ, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I would have to disagree with that. Though we as believers are saved by grace through faith, there are beliefs and teachings that would put people under the banner of false teachers. Below is an example:
"Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some."
Though they considered themselves to be in Christ, Paul called their teaching that the resurrection had already taken place as godless chatter, that it would spread like gangrene, that they had departed from the truth and that by this teaching they were destroying the faith of some. Regarding this, preterist's believe that Christ has already returned and that the resurrection has already taken place, which puts them under the same condition as Hymenaeus and Philetus. Below is another example:
"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
Paul wrote the above to the Galatian church. But because some were leading them back to observing the law, he says that by doing so and remaining in that state, that the were alienated from Christ and had fallen away from grace.
These are just a couple of examples. So yes, what we believe and teach does make a difference. For there are lords many and gospels many, but there is only one true Lord and one true gospel. Those who are teaching false doctrine, though claiming to be in Christ, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Everything needs to be put in proper context. The disciples and early church were promised tribulation for the sake of Christ. History has shown that tribulation for believers has been an ongoing condition throughout time. According to Paul, this tribulation is to be considered a badge of honor for Christians. There is no rapture to spare Christians from the general tribulation of the world.
Now there is also the "Great Tribulation" which was a singular event taught by Jesus in the Olivet discourse. This GT occurred from 66-70 AD, a period 3.5 years and happened in Jerusalem and Judea. Christ identifies the location as such in all of the Olivet accounts. The GT was aimed at the unbelieving, Christ rejecting and Christ murdering Jews of that day. This event was foretold in Zechariah 11. The three shepherds were three very bad men who came to Jerusalem and did more harm to the people than the Romans. They were the tyrants John of Gischala, and Simon bar Giora, and Zealot Eleazar ben Simon. These three men subjected the people of Jerusalem to a bloody and brutal civil war that killed far more people than the Romans did.
God allowed this to happen as recorded in Zec 11. Conditions inside the city were so bad and only worsened once the Romans surrounded them and cut off their food supply. Bodies by the tens of thousands were stacked up like wood in houses and on the streets. Eventually the bodies had to be thrown over the wall. Starvation was so bad that people were eating their babies while the 3 bad shepherds would rob them of food and money.
The Great Tribulation ended on the night when the Romans broke through to the Temple and the Parousia of Christ was felt and seen to execute His wrath on those people. A light illuminated the temple so bright that it turned the night into day for ½ hour. A heifer brought into the temple to be sacrificed in hope of getting God’s support against the Romans actually bore forth a lamb. Rome broke through, destroyed the Temple and slaughtered the people in droves. Thus the Great Tribulation ended. The city was destroyed, dismantled, stone-by-stone and the people were scattered and taken captive. Only 98,000 of the 1.2 million Jews survived.
The “rapture” or gathering of the Elect happened on this same day, Aug 10, 70 AD. Not one Christian was lost during the Great Tribulation or the wrath event.
Now there is also the "Great Tribulation" which was a singular event taught by Jesus in the Olivet discourse. This GT occurred from 66-70 AD, a period 3.5 years and happened in Jerusalem and Judea. Christ identifies the location as such in all of the Olivet accounts. The GT was aimed at the unbelieving, Christ rejecting and Christ murdering Jews of that day. This event was foretold in Zechariah 11. The three shepherds were three very bad men who came to Jerusalem and did more harm to the people than the Romans. They were the tyrants John of Gischala, and Simon bar Giora, and Zealot Eleazar ben Simon. These three men subjected the people of Jerusalem to a bloody and brutal civil war that killed far more people than the Romans did.
God allowed this to happen as recorded in Zec 11. Conditions inside the city were so bad and only worsened once the Romans surrounded them and cut off their food supply. Bodies by the tens of thousands were stacked up like wood in houses and on the streets. Eventually the bodies had to be thrown over the wall. Starvation was so bad that people were eating their babies while the 3 bad shepherds would rob them of food and money.
The Great Tribulation ended on the night when the Romans broke through to the Temple and the Parousia of Christ was felt and seen to execute His wrath on those people. A light illuminated the temple so bright that it turned the night into day for ½ hour. A heifer brought into the temple to be sacrificed in hope of getting God’s support against the Romans actually bore forth a lamb. Rome broke through, destroyed the Temple and slaughtered the people in droves. Thus the Great Tribulation ended. The city was destroyed, dismantled, stone-by-stone and the people were scattered and taken captive. Only 98,000 of the 1.2 million Jews survived.
The “rapture” or gathering of the Elect happened on this same day, Aug 10, 70 AD. Not one Christian was lost during the Great Tribulation or the wrath event.
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So I don't derail the thread. Here you go Ahwatukee.... http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...g-away-faith-its-possible-38.html#post3113367