When did God first reveal himself to humans?

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Celsus

Guest
You have not proved anything. You might be able to debate other religiously dead and non-believers into accepting this interpretation and theories, but you can not debate genuine born again believers from rejecting a real living God who they have daily interaction and relationship with.

Jesus is real, accept Jesus and follow him otherwise you will suffer the consequences when we move on to our next phase of existence.
Scare tactics....yikes. How can you love something
that you fear?
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
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Celsus

Guest
I would buy the Elisha/2 Kings allusion as being undeniable, but I don't see a connection to the Odyssey. It seems spurious and unwarranted at best, especially when the allusion is clearly related to 2 Kings 4. Just reading the Odyssey and Mark side by side shows that they really aren't related. Why did you only look at some of the supposed similarities between the texts in your post? An honest evaluation would also look at divergences, which by the way are much greater than the similarities.

Oh, I also note that you've plagarized Robert Price. Nice. (Original Source: New Testament Narrative as Old Testament Midrash by Robert M. Price)
I realize that saying Mark definitely copied Homer
is not proven or even accepted in modern scholarship.
However, the parallels are quite striking. The page that
I linked to lays out the stories side by side. We can both agree that the author of Mark was most likely Greek
and familiar with Homeric epics. Early Greek writers were taught to copy Homer. Sorry for not giving credit to Robert Price and thanks for admitting the feeding of the multitudes is from the book of Kings and thus most likely not historical.
 
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Celsus

Guest
This is also probably a good indication that you're not really that interested in a discussion, which is fine, but just be honest about it rather than plagarizing and passing off ideas as your own ideas that are up for discussion.
It's interesting that you only quote the Robert Price post
and ignore all the facts and evidence I've presented in over 40 other posts. Nothing to say about those huh?
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
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All of this is off topic by the way. How do we know that Mount Ebal wasn't just a cult place of worship?
Even if it was Joshua's altar so what? Just because there are some true things in the Bible it does NOT
follow that everything in it is true. That's not a very hard concept to understand.

As for the Exodus:

A. By the Bibles own chronology, the year of the Exodus fell during Egypt’s heyday under the 18 Dynasty during the imperium of the puissant Thutmosis III (1490-1436 BCE). It is simply impossible - as so many have said - that the Hebrew slaves attained liberation at the very apex of Egyptian power.

B. The absence of any recognizable Israelites in the Amarna letters, tablets which describe in detail the conditions in 14 century BCE Canaan (See William Moran, The Amarna Letters, John Hopkins Press, 1992).

C. Most scholars would place Israelite origins in the late 13 century BCE or the beginning of the Iron Age where we fine hundreds of new settlements in the hilly Israelite heartland (Israel Finkelstein, The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred ). From exactly the same period, Pharaoh Merneptah’s victory stele boasts of his “eradication” of a group called “Israel” (see Ancient near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, pp 376 -378).

D. A greater problem is that the new highland settlements in Canaan from the 13 – 12 centuries BCE show very little connection with Egyptian material culture. Similarly, the Hebrew language is a purely Canaanite dialect with only Egyptian borrowings of trade words such as found throughout the Near East (see Thomas Lambdin, Egyptian Loan Words in the Old Testament and Muchiki, Egyptian Proper Names and Loanwords in North-West Semitic). Much more Egyptian words and culture should be present in the highlands of Canaan if the Israelite did indeed spent 400 years living in Egypt and then resettled in Canaan.

E. Another problem is the Bible’s complete silence on the Egyptian forays into Syria-Palestine in the late 13 to early 12 centuries BCE under Merneptah and Ramses III. Had the Israelites completely forgotten these inconvenient facts?

F. Even if we re-date the Exodus in favor of a conquest in the early Iron Age, our problems still remain. All the cities the Bible cites as being present during the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites (Kadesh Barnea, Gibeon, Heshbon and Dibon along with the kingdoms of Moab and Edon) did not exist until well into the later Iron Age (William Dever, Who Were the Israelites and Where did They Come From?) The same problem is evident in Joshua’s purported conquest; virtually none of the cities he is said to have conquered shows any evidence of any occupation for the appropriate period. (Dever, 37-71).

G. While the Biblical Book of Exodus claims that the Israelites left Egypt at about 2 million strong (Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550. The 600,000, plus wives, children, the elderly, and the "mixed multitude" of non-Israelites would have numbered some 2 million people) and wondered in the Sinai Wilderness 40 years, archeologists have found no settlements or any other artifacts to support this story (William Dever, Recent Archaeological Discoveries and Biblical Research).

H. One excellent example is the series (now on Youtube) The Bible Unearthed 2. The Exodus. Those who accept the Biblical Exodus as a factual historical event will do themselves an educational favor to watch this video, especially the video's 20 – 28 minute mark as the Exodus is discussed by one of the foremost experts in Egyptology, Donald B. Redford

Any Christian who wants to reject such facts MUST deal with William H. C. Propp’s 2 volume commentary on Exodus in “The Anchor Bible” series.

Propp’s final conclusion: The Exodus story is a Romantic myth based on fantasy (see: The Historicity of the Exodus from Egypt, vol. 2, pp. 735 -756).
Plagarized from Harry McCall.

Original Source: Debunking Abrahamic Religions: A Biblical Lie (The Exodus) Exposes Jesus Christ as a Fraud
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
895
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I realize that saying Mark definitely copied Homer is not proven or even accepted in modern scholarship.
Right; and there's a good reason why it's not.

I linked to lays out the stories side by side. We can both agree that the author of Mark was most likely Greek
and familiar with Homeric epics.
I don't know how you get the idea that Mark was (a) Greek or (b) familiar with Homeric epics. Perhaps he wrote in Greek, but everyone did, so that's not really saying much.
 
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Celsus

Guest
Right; and there's a good reason why it's not.



I don't know how you get the idea that Mark was (a) Greek or (b) familiar with Homeric epics. Perhaps he wrote in Greek, but everyone did, so that's not really saying much.
You're right. The author of Mark is anonymous but we can infer that he wrote for a gentile audience
due to his need to explain Jewish customs and translate Aramaic vestiges. He also uses some Latin
terms. This does not rule out the possibility that he was exposed to Greek and Roman literature.
Jesus of Nazareth: An Independent Historian's Account of His Life and Teaching - Maurice Casey - Google Books

Be careful about saying "everyone" wrote in Greek. The literacy level back then was quite low so
it was only the highly educated that wrote in Greek. This makes it suspicious that Peter, a fisherman,
was able to write in Greek and use the literary devices.

Acts 4:13
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and
untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.
 
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Celsus

Guest
What's "cray cray" is believing a warrior-storm god invented by cattle herders around 3500 years ago somehow created the universe 13.8 billion years ago
and picked a favorite planet out of trillions then picked a favorite part of that planet along with a favorite tribe of people. Then instructed these people to slaughter the neighboring tribes, take slaves, and sacrifice goats to him. Only later to show the entire world that he loves them by coming down to earth and faking his own death for 3 days just to come back to life and become the king of heaven.
 
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twotwo

Guest


What's "cray cray" is believing a warrior-storm god invented by cattle herders around 3500 years ago somehow created the universe 13.8 billion years ago
and picked a favorite planet out of trillions then picked a favorite part of that planet along with a favorite tribe of people. Then instructed these people to slaughter the neighboring tribes, take slaves, and sacrifice goats to him. Only later to show the entire world that he loves them by coming down to earth and faking his own death for 3 days just to come back to life and become the king of heaven.
What cray cray is believing is not what you believe! Indeed, cray cray is believing

In God, the Father almighty,
 creator of heaven and earth.

In Jesus, his only Son, who suffered under Pontius Pilate.


In Christ, who was crucified, died, and rose on the third day.


In the messiah, who is now seated on his Father’s throne.

In our Lord, who will come to judge the living and the dead.

In the Kingdom of God, forever in peace, justice and happiness …

Cray cray is full of hope, and joy because he knows the Lord...
 

Attachments

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
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Celsus I hope you do not go crazy by failing in your agenda and mission to show us that we are deluded and wrong.

We can all testify that Jesus is real, Holy SPirit is real God is real, you see it dosn't matter how many professors and experts you wheel out to tell us God is not real and is just made up, because we know God personally, we all have a relationship and daily interaction with God. If you know something is real, you can not be debated out of it, which is why we all just facepalm and say here we go again when you and others like you try to educated us and debate us out of following Christ.
 
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JesusIsAll

Guest
Celsus I hope you do not go crazy by failing in your agenda and mission to show us that we are deluded and wrong.

We can all testify that Jesus is real, Holy SPirit is real God is real, you see it dosn't matter how many professors and experts you wheel out to tell us God is not real and is just made up, because we know God personally, we all have a relationship and daily interaction with God. If you know something is real, you can not be debated out of it, which is why we all just facepalm and say here we go again when you and others like you try to educated us and debate us out of following Christ.
This is so very true, a blind spot in these people. It goes to those claiming false doctrines, also. They're like parrots, make a career of repetitively hammering away at their error ad nauseam, not realizing they won't convince anybody with eyes to see and ears to hear of word one, ever. It's like, "Well, now that you've repeated yourself fifty times, I'm just going to give up the truth I know for a lie, give up the light for darkness." DUH!
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,086
1,749
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"By the 14th century BC, before the cult of Yahweh had reached Israel, groups of Edomite and Midianities worshipped Yahweh as their god."
Shasu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The absence of references to a Syrian or Palestinian cult of Yahweh outside Israel suggests that the god does not belong to the traditional circle of West Semitic deities. The origins of his veneration must be sought elsewhere. A number of texts suggest that Yahweh was worshipped in southern Edom and Midian before his cult spread to Palestine. There are two Egyptian texts that mention Yahweh. In these texts from the 14th and 13th centuries BCE, Yahweh is neither connected with the Israelites, nor is his cult located in Palestine." Pg. 911 DDD
Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible DDD - Google Books
Three comments,

1. My impression of Ancient Near Eastern Studies is that it is a very speculative field made up of scholars with competing theories who often treat their theories as objective truth.

2. Edom and likely Midian were descendants of Abraham. Depending on how you interpret God's introduction of Himself to Moses in Exodus, Abraham may have known the divine name.

3. The Bible teaches pre-Exodus knowledge of God.
 
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didymos

Guest
What's "cray cray" is believing a warrior-storm god invented by cattle herders around 3500 years ago somehow created the universe 13.8 billion years ago
and picked a favorite planet out of trillions then picked a favorite part of that planet along with a favorite tribe of people. Then instructed these people to slaughter the neighboring tribes, take slaves, and sacrifice goats to him. Only later to show the entire world that he loves them by coming down to earth and faking his own death for 3 days just to come back to life and become the king of heaven.
Apparently you missed the 'Homer' reference there...
Why so serious? :rolleyes:

 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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lol,I notice that atheist have an odd sense of duty,,they believe that there is (nothing) after death,and they struggle to save us from the agony of (nothing),that is if they believe in (nothingness)in the afterlife then shouldn't it really make no difference if we believe in God or not?,,,
 
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Celsus

Guest
So someone who presents facts and evidence is
automatically an atheist? Quite the hasty generalization
you guys got there.