First off I have never heard anything in support of the pre trib "rapture".In fact Jack Van Impe, one of the most prominent promoters of this lie has stated on one of his videos that "this teaching cannot be found in the bible,but if we look to the church fathers we can prove the pre trib rapture..."
Here are a couple verses used by those who promote the pre trib rapture. Luke:17:35&36: "Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Then the disciples asked Jesus in Luke:17:37: "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." Low lets see where the eagles or birds are gathered together in Matthew:24:28: "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." To think that those who will be taken are taken to a good place is presumption at best.If you do a word study on the word taken throughout the bible you will find that most of the time that word is used it refers to some place bad.
Now lets break down 1 Thessalonians 4. 1Th:4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Who are those who are "asleep"? Are these asleep in heaven? Are these asleep in the grave? The ones who are asleep are the ones that will be the first to be raised from the dead, then those who are alive and remain will be caught up to be with them in the air. So much for the belief that when we die we go straight to heaven or hell. When Jesus comes during this time, how can anyone actually believe that His coming will be anything but very loud with a shout, a trumpet, every eye shall see Him. How can this be a secret, or a pre "second coming"? All the bible verses that mention Jesus second coming depict it as a very momentous event.
How about the principle that God never gave anybody a second chance? When God destroyed the earth did He remove anybody from earth before it happened? Or did He provide a way to bring His people through it, like the flood, or sodom and gomorrah?
The pre trib rapture was designed to deceive people into thinking that they will have a second chance, when in actuality when Jesus comes it will be over just like the bible states. There are many psofessors of Christianity who are waiting for this "secret" or pre trib rapture to happen before they finally accept Jesus.The left behind sci fi movie series has too many people duped into believeing the very deceptive teaching that will condemn many to hell.
BTW please give me a bible verse that proves the pre trib rapture theory. Just because Jesus does not set His foot down on the sin sick earth when He comes to take ALL His people home does not mean that he will be coming for MORE of His people.
Postrib talking points. All of you guys use the same workbook. None of it plays out.
2 in a bed,one taken,one left.
As with the other "pairs" in Jesus description the 2 are together. Working,reclining,walking,sleeping.
You are oblivious to the fact that if that dynamic is in the GT,you need a demon saturated Satan worshipper with the mark of the beast,SLEEPING NEXT TO,what you guys claim to be "overcomers".
I mean,that is so far fetched,you couldn't even sell that to the brain dead.
No,they are KINDRED. They are TOGETHER,DOING THINGS TOGETHER.
(pssst...kinda like mat 25 virgins)
So that deal is debunked. (can't believe that EVER got traction....pure desperation)
What's the next item in the dusty workbook?
Some misunderstanding about death as far as I can make out.
You may want to read that story( 1 kings maybe),can't remember,where the dead man was lowered into the grave of the prophet and when he touched the bones he came back to life.
That little component will have your deal in knots for a while,as you mentally sift through it.
That's the deal.
That's why postrib can never get going.
ANY OF IT,played out FAILS.
All you guys have is mental suppositions.
Go and visit postrib websites. They have little to nothing.
THEY EVEN ADMIT THEY ARE 90% anti pretrin rapture,10% "doctrine".
None of them can read for comprehension . None of their deals plays out.
Any concept they bring,ABSOLUTELY MUST be twisted,and force fitted.
The fact of the matter is, Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul all taght the coming pre0trib rapture of the Church, and there is nothing "forced" about it, as documented below:
The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church
Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.
Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].
The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.
1 Thess.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.
"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Verse 14.
"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.
Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.
"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Verse 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.
"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.
2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thess.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].
The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in verse 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.
In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.
Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure."
In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.
From:
http://www.raptureready.com/featured...onians2_3.html
"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Verse 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15].
The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."
The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:
In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].
The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.
From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.
Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thess.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!
The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf
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