about the rich man
- Thread starter oldman
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hello Pilgirm/Willie,
Actually Willie, it's not about us wanting people to go to Hades or wanting them to be judged, but it is about the same thing that it is always about, which is the truth and accuracy of God's word, regardless of the subject. For there seems to be a great departure from the truth in these last days and this can be seen in just about every subject in Scripture.
Actually Willie, it's not about us wanting people to go to Hades or wanting them to be judged, but it is about the same thing that it is always about, which is the truth and accuracy of God's word, regardless of the subject. For there seems to be a great departure from the truth in these last days and this can be seen in just about every subject in Scripture.
-
The impoundment of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is where people
will be tormented for their sins.
Hades is where people are placed under arrest and held for trial; without bail
of course. Hades, though not fun, is relatively comfortable compared to the
brimstone; just as a cookie baking in the oven is far and away better off
than a foundry worker falling into a vat of molten iron.
All disbelievers are condemned while they're still alive; before they pass
away and cross over to the other side.
● John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does
not believe stands condemned already.
As someone already pointed out, the rich man was a disbeliever; hence, he
was placed under arrest the moment he passed away and placed in custody.
If he thinks where he is now is rough; just wait.
● Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me: says the Lord. And
they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against
me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be
loathsome to all mankind.
A worm that thrives in flame is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4
inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit: hot
enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create
a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms
that like it even warmer.
Q: Why the great white throne judgement? If disbelievers are already
condemned, why not fast track them to the lake of brimstone instead of
bothering to hold them for trial?
A: Well; the great white throne is where the severity of the disbeliever's
punishment will be determined.
● Luke 12:47-48 . .That servant who knows his master's will and does not
get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many
blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving
punishment will be beaten with few blows.
All disbelievers are of course on a road to the lake of brimstone. However,
not all disbelievers will undergo an equal mount of suffering. Those who
knew a little, will suffer little; while those who knew a lot will suffer a lot. In
this regard; the less somebody knows about Christianity the better off they'll be.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The impoundment of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is where people
will be tormented for their sins.
Hades is where people are placed under arrest and held for trial; without bail
of course. Hades, though not fun, is relatively comfortable compared to the
brimstone; just as a cookie baking in the oven is far and away better off
than a foundry worker falling into a vat of molten iron.
All disbelievers are condemned while they're still alive; before they pass
away and cross over to the other side.
● John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does
not believe stands condemned already.
As someone already pointed out, the rich man was a disbeliever; hence, he
was placed under arrest the moment he passed away and placed in custody.
If he thinks where he is now is rough; just wait.
● Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me: says the Lord. And
they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against
me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be
loathsome to all mankind.
A worm that thrives in flame is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4
inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit: hot
enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create
a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms
that like it even warmer.
Q: Why the great white throne judgement? If disbelievers are already
condemned, why not fast track them to the lake of brimstone instead of
bothering to hold them for trial?
A: Well; the great white throne is where the severity of the disbeliever's
punishment will be determined.
● Luke 12:47-48 . .That servant who knows his master's will and does not
get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many
blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving
punishment will be beaten with few blows.
All disbelievers are of course on a road to the lake of brimstone. However,
not all disbelievers will undergo an equal mount of suffering. Those who
knew a little, will suffer little; while those who knew a lot will suffer a lot. In
this regard; the less somebody knows about Christianity the better off they'll be.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Last edited:
Willie, if Sheol/Hades were just representing the grave, you would have to distort a lot of other scriptures that demonstrate the conscious awareness of the soul/spirit after death, such as Moses and Elijah meeting and speaking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, the souls under the altar in heaven at the opening of the 5th seal. You would have to explain what Jesus meant when he said to the man crucified next to him "today you will be with me in paradise." I've done a complete and thorough study on Sheol/Hades and I can assure you that it is not just a hole in the ground. You are only thinking of the body, but scripture makes clear that at the time of death the spirit/soul departs from the body and either goes to be in the presence of the Lord or goes into Sheol/Hades. Here are the results regarding this place you call only the grave:
Characteristics of:
· Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,
· Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,
· Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17
· Has Chambers - Prov.7:27
· Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18
· A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24
· Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14
Hi Ahwatukee, I might not use Moses and Elijah on the mount as Jesus pointed out that was a vision, so that might just end up being a point to contend with later if seeking to use that for this particular point. The less there is to argue over the better.
Mat 17:9 [FONT="]And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,
[/FONT][FONT="]Tell the vision to no man,[/FONT][FONT="] until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.[/FONT]
Mat 17:9 [FONT="]And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,
[/FONT][FONT="]Tell the vision to no man,[/FONT][FONT="] until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.[/FONT]
Scripture makes it very clear that at the time of death the spirit/soul of the believer goes to be in the presence of Christ (Phil.1:23, 2 Cor.5:6-8). On the other hand, when the unfaithful die their bodies do go into the grave, but their spirit/soul goes into Hades and will remain there until the great white throne judgment, where at which point they will be released from Hades and will stand before God for judgment of their sins.
Sleep, which is a metaphor for being dead, is in reference to the body only and is not referring to the spirit/soul. You need to understand that there a person is not made up of only the body, which is just a tent that houses the spirit/soul. At the time of death, the body goes into the grave, but the spirit/soul goes to their respective places. Here is an example of death of the body referred to as sleep:
"They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up.
Notice in the scripture above that after Jesus took the litter girl by the hand it states that "her spirit returned," which means that it was somewhere else.
"They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up.
Notice in the scripture above that after Jesus took the litter girl by the hand it states that "her spirit returned," which means that it was somewhere else.
I hear ya sister. But I don't believe it was just a vision, but an actual meeting, for Luke's version states that Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus about his departure.
"Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem."
"Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem."
The law and the prophets did speak of his decease according to what is the vision of all, he spake by the prophets multiplying visions, and for sake of argument, that might just backfire bringing it in and become a side track issue (which is what I am doing here) like, if it can be argued (for the sake of the point best not go there) just saves you trouble.
I do believe each gospel adds in a little more information to form a better picture though.
The issue is neither here nor there with me personally
I do believe each gospel adds in a little more information to form a better picture though.
The issue is neither here nor there with me personally
T
I believe it was a certain man. I believe it to be actual events. But why is this up for debate? I don't get it. Jesus is saying this kind of thing actually happened. However, this was before his death and resurrection. Believer no longer are in this place. New Testament after the resurrection are with the Lord according to the Apostle Paul. To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.
Willie, the "oops" is on you. You continue to not recognize the difference between the spirit/soul and the body, which is your on-going error. After Christ resurrected, all believers when they die, their spirit/soul departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, while the body decays in the earth (asleep). No one has yet gone to heaven in their resurrected bodies except for Christ. Do you understand that now?
Here are a couple
Acts 2:22 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.
And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 2:22 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.
And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Of Christ it says of them
1 Cr 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once;
of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice,
Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Which would seem to indicate what he meant here (some alive) some asleep (in this manner)
1Cr 15:6... of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
Which to me would be speaking of the likes of Stephen (stoned) or of James the brother of John (killed with the sword)
1Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Whereas they which are alive and remain at his coming (in contrast) to them which are asleep are shown here
1 Thes 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
And of the majority who had seen the Lord (at the first) Paul says,
1Cr 15:6... of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
For example, Stephen in Acts 7:60 he fell asleep.
And then here (this way) in this context
1 Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cr 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once;
of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice,
Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Which would seem to indicate what he meant here (some alive) some asleep (in this manner)
1Cr 15:6... of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
Which to me would be speaking of the likes of Stephen (stoned) or of James the brother of John (killed with the sword)
1Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Whereas they which are alive and remain at his coming (in contrast) to them which are asleep are shown here
1 Thes 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
And of the majority who had seen the Lord (at the first) Paul says,
1Cr 15:6... of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
For example, Stephen in Acts 7:60 he fell asleep.
And then here (this way) in this context
1 Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Believers when their bodies die, their spirit/soul departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. When the unsaved die, their spirit/soul departs from their body and they go or are taken to Hades, where they will remain in torment until the end of the thousand years. At that time they will be resurrected out of Hades and will stand before God at the great white throne. Regarding this, please consider the following:
For Believers:
"Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
For unbelievers:
Just as with the rich man, when the unrighteous die, their spirit/souls go to or are taken by the angels to Hades/Shoel where they will be in torment and resurrected out at the end of the thousand years to be judged. In other words Willie, when the wicked die, their spirits/souls do not go to be in the presence of the Lord, as that is only for the faithful who die.
For Believers:
"Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
For unbelievers:
Just as with the rich man, when the unrighteous die, their spirit/souls go to or are taken by the angels to Hades/Shoel where they will be in torment and resurrected out at the end of the thousand years to be judged. In other words Willie, when the wicked die, their spirits/souls do not go to be in the presence of the Lord, as that is only for the faithful who die.