Adam's fall and its consequences

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#81
So God, in the future, will not remember our sins and iniquities in eternity future.
God choosing not to remember does not mean He does not know in the first place. Our sins are not held against us when we are covered by grace through faith in the atoning work of Christ on the cross, Who willingly gave His life as a ransom for many. God is not limited as we are. Knowing every possibility and the choices we will make in any given situation does not mean He ordains our choices either, as some people believe (not saying you do :)).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#84
Well, we both are using man's logic, because we both are men. But I think that logic is given to us by God so if used properly, it will not lead us astray.

I have nothing against Bible verses. If you have some saying that God does not know the future, post them.
Did God know that Nineveh would repent and in turn He would not destroy them? Remember, God told Jonah to preach the message, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown."


 

davida

Senior Member
Sep 9, 2017
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#85
Do not waste your time here. This unholy untrue doctrine that Jesus sacrifice was not enough,, that God hates us and condemns unborn children to hell, that He created millions just to send them to hell is an abomination.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#86
someone who says God doesn't know the future but the future is open.
I believe God has chosen not to know certain things. God has declared in His word how some things will end up, including Christ on the throne ruling and reigning for all eternity. It's called prophecy.:)

Has everyone's future been settled?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#87
No free will = No one is guilty, its all God's fault. Yall cant get your head around the fact that God is not at fault for our sins, and he does not cause us to sin.
He calls us to obey, and tells us His commandments are doable, and close to us.

Simple really.

Just another excuse for not obeying.
I know it's not God's fault.. So straight away your argument is mute!

Only those in Christ can obey.. Because, if your good works are outside of Christ they are just like filthy rags. No one seeks God, and mans heart is continually evil. So works will save no one. And most importantly following the law will never cause anyone to be saved (those who think so are only fooling themselves and follow another gospel).

Anyhow, on top of that the natural man is inherently evil not inherently good!. It's clear in scripture and all other theories have been condemned by the church throughout history, for very good reasons.

Since the Fall, man has thought himself to be the all in all, god himself, and man still suffers from this. We still follow the lie that we are inherently good, and that we do not deserve God's wrath. Because 'I am it'.

God has a definite plan in redemptive His-story and His decrees and plans are not dependant on mans rebellious whim.

P.S who says I don't want to obey? I just don't want to tear down what Christ has already built!!! that is I don't put myself under the Mosaic law, which even the Jews couldn't follow perfectly..Only and only their Messiah could do it!
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#88
Did God know that Nineveh would repent and in turn He would not destroy them? Remember, God told Jonah to preach the message, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown."


"Yet three days, and Nineve shall be overthrown." (LXX) :)

But the point is, why would God sent Jonah here? Why did He give the city the time to repent?

Because, of course, He had a plan. A plan to save the people and animals in the city. A plan to teach Jonah something. A plan to teach us something.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#89
"Yet three days, and Nineve shall be overthrown." (LXX) :)

But the point is, why would God sent Jonah here? Why did He give the city the time to repent?

Because, of course, He had a plan. A plan to save the people and animals in the city. A plan to teach Jonah something. A plan to teach us something.
The question is: Did God know ahead of time that Nineveh would repent and in turn, He would would not destroy them?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#90
The question is: Did God know ahead of time that Nineveh would repent and in turn, He would would not destroy them?
Of course. There is no reason to limit God. If some theological view needs to limit God, I wonder why it is accepted.

Tell me, how would God know what is the best to do right know, not knowing the consequences? If you limit His knowledge, you make Him possible to err.
 
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Jan 21, 2017
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#92
I know it's not God's fault.. So straight away your argument is mute!

Only those in Christ can obey.. Because, if your good works are outside of Christ they are just like filthy rags. No one seeks God, and mans heart is continually evil. So works will save no one. And most importantly following the law will never cause anyone to be saved (those who think so are only fooling themselves and follow another gospel).

Anyhow, on top of that the natural man is inherently evil not inherently good!. It's clear in scripture and all other theories have been condemned by the church throughout history, for very good reasons.
So ya pick the verses that talk about evil people, or Israel in apostasy and apply them to all men? Typical calvinism, quoting romans 3:10 without reading whats being quoted, where the psalms contrast RIGHTEOUS with the WICKED all the time. As does the entire bible.

This nobody ever does anything good its all filthy rags is easily debunked by Acts 10, where Cornelius a man WITHOUT FAITH in Christ is still consider a devout man, and his prayers are heard, he gets a revelation and Peter is sent to preach the Gospel to him.
God accepted his works looked like it? Infact they was called a "memorial offering" before God!

1 John 3:7 says whosoever does what is right is righteous. That closes that case.

John 5:28-29 also contrasts the righteous with the wicked, this one is still in the bible for some reason, the bible pundits havent expunged it yet, maybe its coming after some "more reliable" and "older" manuscripts are found.

Man is not born evil, or righteous. Man is born neutral and becomes a sinner when the first sin is commited, just like you're not a liar until you tell your first lie.

Genesis 3 details the fall, as ive quoted before and nothing of a sin nature, or inability to obey is mentioned, which is why Jews never have believed in the original sin. God aint playing when He says my commandments are not far from you to do em! Thats what God says, turn to me so ye may be healed, seek God, knock, God draws near to those who draw near to Him. With the way you guys interpret the bible you should literally throw out about 90% of the book, all that would be left would be a couple of verses from John and some from Paul's epistles.

Peter was inspired to write that many folks would TWIST Paul's letters and thats exactly what the unsystematic theology is! That heretic Luther even wanted hebrews and james out the bible, because it didnt fit his unsystematic theology! Called James an epistle of straw. The real straw is all the theology books written by these pundits that should be thrown in the trash heap of history where they belong.

Nobody believed this weird fatalistic gnostic manichean pagan stuff until Augustine came along. AND even Augustine defended free will to an extent, unlike John Calvin who states: "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."

I already know from you quoting Matthew Henry that nothing can convince you, no amount of inconsistensies in your views, no amount of bible verses and no amount of explanation. What a weird quote, this guy Matthew Henry just made most of the bible null and void. Its pointless to ask for faith, holiness and love if God has to create it in us? Pointless communication, God can just give us the faith love and holiness and keep it moving, no reason to ask people to do something they cant do. Waste of breath. Or is there something more sinister behind this according to yall? Something to damn the predestinated to destruction even further? Dare I even ask.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#93
"Yet three days, and Nineve shall be overthrown." (LXX) :)

But the point is, why would God sent Jonah here? Why did He give the city the time to repent?

Because, of course, He had a plan. A plan to save the people and animals in the city. A plan to teach Jonah something. A plan to teach us something.


This is a great lesson for everyone who talks about the Potter's freedom. Check it out guys: (This is what the situation in Nineveh was about):

Jeremiah 18:5-12King James Version (KJV)

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Again, in the calvinist scheme of things, ALL of the above is COMPLETELY meaningless and the verses have no purpose because God is the one who caused all that disobedience and repentance or lack thereof, so God is just arguing with Himself here, which would be dumb and pointless
 
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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#94
Of course. There is no reason to limit God. If some theological view needs to limit God, I wonder why it is accepted.

Tell me, how would God know what is the best to do right know, not knowing the consequences? If you limit His knowledge, you make Him possible to err.
If God knew that Nineveh would repent and He would not destroy them, then did God lie? God said he was going to destroy them in forty days. God did not destroy them. God either lied or He changed His mind based on the response of Nineveh to His word.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#95
If God knew that Nineveh would repent and He would not destroy them, then did God lie? God said he was going to destroy them in forty days. God did not destroy them. God either lied or He changed His mind based on the response of Nineveh to His word.
The latter is true. As I quoted in Jeremiah 18.
God speaks against a nation, saying it will be destroyed, BUT God says if they repent, God will also repent of the judgment He was about to bring upon that nation.

Same vice versa, God promises a nation (Israel in the OT especially) plenty of blessings, but IF Israel turned to idolatry and evil, God would repent of the blessings that He was about to bring upon that nation.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#96
https://carm.org/can-god-change-his-mind

I think this is a good explanation of the Bible verses that seem to make God "too human like".

"So, what we’re seeing is God changing His mind from our perspective, but from the eternal perspective, He never did."
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,642
3,533
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#97
https://carm.org/can-god-change-his-mind

I think this is a good explanation of the Bible verses that seem to make God "too human like".

"So, what we’re seeing is God changing His mind from our perspective, but from the eternal perspective, He never did."
The article states: How do we know that He didn’t say that He would destroy them to get them to repent, which was all according to His plan?

In other words, God lied in order to get Nineveh to repent. This is a weak explanation and view of God. Why not let the word of God stand and believe it. When statements in the Bible seem to make God a lesser being than our logic, some will explain away the verses for lack of understanding.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#98
"For I am God, and here is none other beside me, telling beforehand the latter events before they come to pass, and they are accomplished together: and I said, all my counsel shall stand, and I will do all things that I have planned."
Is 46:9

= eternal perspective
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,890
26,050
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#99
The article states: How do we know that He didn’t say that He would destroy them to get them to repent, which was all according to His plan?

In other words, God lied in order to get Nineveh to repent. This is a weak explanation and view of God. Why not let the word of God stand and believe it. When statements in the Bible seem to make God a lesser being than our logic, some will explain away the verses for lack of understanding.
Nineveh was eventually destroyed. God did not go back on His word.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
The article states: How do we know that He didn’t say that He would destroy them to get them to repent, which was all according to His plan?

In other words, God lied in order to get Nineveh to repent. This is a weak explanation and view of God. Why not let the word of God stand and believe it. When statements in the Bible seem to make God a lesser being than our logic, some will explain away the verses for lack of understanding.
You are offering two options that are both blasphemious.

1. God cannot lie. Period.
2. God cannot change, because He is already perfect. Period.

Bible is written for men, it has two layers - the layer of spiritual realities above all time, like Is 46:9 and the layer of what is seen from our, human, in-time perspective like Jer 18:5.