Anyone Else Been Kicked out of Church?
- Thread starter Allin
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
People say there are two sides to a story; Wisdom says there are three: one side, the other side, and the unbiased truth. When Solomon judged between the two prostitutes regarding whose son the child was, he heard the two sides, then applied wisdom in what he did which yielded up which side was in fact right. God has a way of justifying people who don't justify themselves and condemning those who justify themselves. That's why I'm open and honest about what I do wrong: if I remain reachable, I'm safe; but people who want to justify everything they do as of God, good, or excusable put themselves more and more beyond the reach of His Grace and don't know it (check the story surrounding David and Bathsheba for reference to 'the safe way of doing things'). Someone told me to go apologize to the prophet. Yeah, when he makes his whole life an apology to God and all the people he's harmed and deceived. Neither God nor my heart remotely (remotely) condemn me; but that prophet lies under God's condemnation, and his own heart condemns him. The Lord is the One who is 'looking for a Church', not me.
You're right: sit still for tradition's sake, give tithes for the church's sake (and so you can pay God off and live like you want), share plastic smiles and superficial grunts with one another, then go home and wait seven days... It bothers me too, because it's not the pattern from the early Church and binds people from being free, using their gifts, living life, and winning others through their lifestyle and CHARACTER. Wish it didn't require national and global chaos and unrest to change Church back to how it's supposed be, but that's what it's going to take.
Women can teach; women can't usurp. There's a difference. Deborah was a prophet(ess) who rightly gave the authority to lead to a man as God told her to: she gave it to Barak. After the war, she sang a song saying, "When leaders lead in Israel... bless the Lord." Amen.
We're all allowed or 'entitled' to sin; that doesn't mean we should. If you mean, however, that God gives ministers the right to get money from the people, that's not true unless they're feeding the sheep; no feed, no money. Jesus said there are only two types of shepherds (pastors, ministers): hirelings who will abandon the sheep if it came down to it, and good shepherds who will put themselves in harm's way so the sheep can be protected, live free, and enjoy life. Jesus is the first good Shepherd; He told Peter three times to feed His Sheep/lambs: ministers who feed (take care of) the flock have the right, as Paul said of himself and his ministry team, to receive money and material things from the flock (but like Paul don't have to make use of this right); ministers who don't feed or take care of the flock forfeit this right completely. Too bad none of them seem to have grasped this truth. You can still grasp it yourself; you may have to minister someday, and it's important to know what's yours and what isn't.
We're all allowed or 'entitled' to sin; that doesn't mean we should. If you mean, however, that God gives ministers the right to get money from the people, that's not true unless they're feeding the sheep; no feed, no money. Jesus said there are only two types of shepherds (pastors, ministers): hirelings who will abandon the sheep if it came down to it, and good shepherds who will put themselves in harm's way so the sheep can be protected, live free, and enjoy life. Jesus is the first good Shepherd; He told Peter three times to feed His Sheep/lambs: ministers who feed (take care of) the flock have the right, as Paul said of himself and his ministry team, to receive money and material things from the flock (but like Paul don't have to make use of this right); ministers who don't feed or take care of the flock forfeit this right completely. Too bad none of them seem to have grasped this truth. You can still grasp it yourself; you may have to minister someday, and it's important to know what's yours and what isn't.
Sorry that you've had this experience. There's nothing like being wounded in the house of your friends. It's hard to be in that situation. My hardest time in church wasn't directed at me but was just watching a lot of what is called God that's really flesh and, if in a charismatic or like church, soul. Soul, soul, soul, the great human alternative for God. I hope you have a smaller group that you fellowship with. If not, I hope God's Grace and His fellowship are sufficient for you.
You used the right word: I'm GLAD I was kicked out! I just now posted above about hirelings in response to someone else. I know about them in Jeremiah. At the end of chapter 8, Jeremiah said, "The harvest is past; the summer is ended; and we are not saved... Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then is there no healing for the hurt of the daughter of my people?" The times for revival and ask that are way past, and nothing has changed, because the Lord is not in the churches-- there's no balm in Gilead and no physician there, therefore, no one is fixed, and nothing is resolved. I'm glad you can see.
There are many businesses with which we do not agree. In relationships of all kinds, there are times of disagreement.
Disagreement is going to happen, but forgiveness is not inevitable. However, each of us needs forgiveness. I don't know about you, but I would not be here today without undeserved forgiveness (from God and others). Regardless of disagreement and actions that took place or take places, we need to remember to forgive. It might be that our forgiveness or even asking for forgiveness emphasizes all the more what Jesus did on the cross. We still benefit from Christ on the cross, even after he got up. Let's not forget this.
Prayer: Lord, You hate to see division, except from sin. Please help us to examine our lives and show us where we are wrong in who we are, how we think, say, or do. Then remind us again of who we are in Christ, and how-- because of Your forgiveness-- we can be restored, change course, and make a better impact in others' lives. Regardless, get the glory, Lord. In that congregation where there is division (where damage is seen, has been done, or is being plotted by sin-sick people)... let forgiveness be evident, so healing can take place. And help miscommunication to improve, so the parts of Your Body will function together. But as each of us is a part, continue with us. Correct us where we need correcting. And use us however you see fit. In Jesus' name, amen.
Disagreement is going to happen, but forgiveness is not inevitable. However, each of us needs forgiveness. I don't know about you, but I would not be here today without undeserved forgiveness (from God and others). Regardless of disagreement and actions that took place or take places, we need to remember to forgive. It might be that our forgiveness or even asking for forgiveness emphasizes all the more what Jesus did on the cross. We still benefit from Christ on the cross, even after he got up. Let's not forget this.
Prayer: Lord, You hate to see division, except from sin. Please help us to examine our lives and show us where we are wrong in who we are, how we think, say, or do. Then remind us again of who we are in Christ, and how-- because of Your forgiveness-- we can be restored, change course, and make a better impact in others' lives. Regardless, get the glory, Lord. In that congregation where there is division (where damage is seen, has been done, or is being plotted by sin-sick people)... let forgiveness be evident, so healing can take place. And help miscommunication to improve, so the parts of Your Body will function together. But as each of us is a part, continue with us. Correct us where we need correcting. And use us however you see fit. In Jesus' name, amen.
Last edited:
It's never wise to say that a person is inaccurate until you first ask them to explain what they're saying. You should've asked me to explain what I was saying. I understand that those were rhetorical questions; now, let me explain what I was saying.
In chapter 8, before Jeremiah asks these questions (which are apparently rhetorical because he doesn't say, "Is there balm in Gilead" but rather "is there no balm in Gilead", the 'no' making the question rhetorical), he states that all the ministers were in sin, don't minister to the people, and will therefore fall into judgment at the appointed time. He then travels on to ask several questions: "Is the Lord not in Zion? Is her King not in her?" etc. I understand rhetorical questions well as my given name is a rhetorical question meaning "who is greater than God" (not really a question at all but a statementas in "o is like the Lord our God") and I use rhetorical questions all the time (if you look through my posts, you will see a great deal of them). Rhetorical questions often make people think more than common queons, so I use them often (common questions make people all too eager to share their own opinions, but rhetorical questions make people want to ask more questions); and most of the time when I use them, you'll notice that I don't use a question mark at the end of the question because it isn't really meant to be answered but to be meditated on (look through my posts here and you'll see it). By the end of this post, I'll probably be using at least one.
"The harvest is past... and we are not saved." No rhetoric there; it means just that, especially for today as all Scripture is useful: our appointed times of visitation, revivals, growth, and maturity have come and gone, and we're still the same; we haven't changed. Paul and the writer to the Hebrews touch on this, saying that though their listeners should be mature ministers, they still needed milk; there wasn't as much change as should've been there. "Is there NO balm in Gilead? Is there NO physician there? Why THEN..." The words in caps make the questions rhetorical: "If the Lord is among you, why are you still not made whole." It forces you to think. There is no church on earth that doesn't say, "The Lord is with us. We're doing it right." Jeremiah would say, "Yes, He is AVAILABLE to you; but if He is WITH you the way YOU say He is, then why is there no evidence." These types of questions challenge wrong beliefs and disassemble wrong mindsets, therefore, Jesus used them all the time, and they silenced His adversaries. It's like asking someone who is ill but says they are healed, "If you're healed, then why are you still sick." Can anyone answer that. It's basically impossible isn't it.
Of course Jesus is available; but if He is among so many Christians as they say He is, then why do they have a very tiny experience of His presence and works. The truth is Jesus is; the fact is that most people don't experience that. As to "why aren't you well", for today's Christianity, the answer is made simple: either Jesus changed the rules when He ascended and is reluctant to make people well... or people are neglecting their part in being His hands and feet. On earth, Jesus used His own hands and feet to do God's will; when He ascended, He gave CERTAIN ministry gifts/people as gifts to the churches, and the Holy Spirit came and gave extra gifts to everyone ("In those days, I will pour out My Spirit on ALL flesh"). These ministers and ALL Christians are to be Jesus' hands and feet now that He isn't on earth. When people aren't His hands and feet, we get the mutant Christianity you see today where Jesus is available, but no one applies that Balm of Gilead for anyone else; therefore, though many may deny it, few issues are resolved. Churches are filled with fleshly, sick, mentally ill and taking meds Christians though Jesus is available. I would call that 'no [application of] balm in Gilead'. So, rhetoric aside: is there Balm in Gilead? Yes. Is there no Balm in Gilead? No.
The gifts of the Spirit can flow through even rebellious Christians (which confuses a lot of people), but the presence of the Lord is different. We experience this only when we do the things on His heart and "bear one another's burdens [through which we] fulfill the law of Christ" or "the law of Love", our only obligation under Grace.The Lord won't presence the company of those who don't love Him and therefore love (are His hands and feet to) each other. Spiritual words are interpreted spiritually or are not interpreted at all. I admit that I'm not talking like a lot of people on here; I'm saying a lot of things compacted into each post which can make what I say hard to understand, because they're supposed to provoke people to think and ask questions (though people rarely do). You can't always know what a person is saying simply by what they've written; but you're free to ask.
In chapter 8, before Jeremiah asks these questions (which are apparently rhetorical because he doesn't say, "Is there balm in Gilead" but rather "is there no balm in Gilead", the 'no' making the question rhetorical), he states that all the ministers were in sin, don't minister to the people, and will therefore fall into judgment at the appointed time. He then travels on to ask several questions: "Is the Lord not in Zion? Is her King not in her?" etc. I understand rhetorical questions well as my given name is a rhetorical question meaning "who is greater than God" (not really a question at all but a statementas in "o is like the Lord our God") and I use rhetorical questions all the time (if you look through my posts, you will see a great deal of them). Rhetorical questions often make people think more than common queons, so I use them often (common questions make people all too eager to share their own opinions, but rhetorical questions make people want to ask more questions); and most of the time when I use them, you'll notice that I don't use a question mark at the end of the question because it isn't really meant to be answered but to be meditated on (look through my posts here and you'll see it). By the end of this post, I'll probably be using at least one.
"The harvest is past... and we are not saved." No rhetoric there; it means just that, especially for today as all Scripture is useful: our appointed times of visitation, revivals, growth, and maturity have come and gone, and we're still the same; we haven't changed. Paul and the writer to the Hebrews touch on this, saying that though their listeners should be mature ministers, they still needed milk; there wasn't as much change as should've been there. "Is there NO balm in Gilead? Is there NO physician there? Why THEN..." The words in caps make the questions rhetorical: "If the Lord is among you, why are you still not made whole." It forces you to think. There is no church on earth that doesn't say, "The Lord is with us. We're doing it right." Jeremiah would say, "Yes, He is AVAILABLE to you; but if He is WITH you the way YOU say He is, then why is there no evidence." These types of questions challenge wrong beliefs and disassemble wrong mindsets, therefore, Jesus used them all the time, and they silenced His adversaries. It's like asking someone who is ill but says they are healed, "If you're healed, then why are you still sick." Can anyone answer that. It's basically impossible isn't it.
Of course Jesus is available; but if He is among so many Christians as they say He is, then why do they have a very tiny experience of His presence and works. The truth is Jesus is; the fact is that most people don't experience that. As to "why aren't you well", for today's Christianity, the answer is made simple: either Jesus changed the rules when He ascended and is reluctant to make people well... or people are neglecting their part in being His hands and feet. On earth, Jesus used His own hands and feet to do God's will; when He ascended, He gave CERTAIN ministry gifts/people as gifts to the churches, and the Holy Spirit came and gave extra gifts to everyone ("In those days, I will pour out My Spirit on ALL flesh"). These ministers and ALL Christians are to be Jesus' hands and feet now that He isn't on earth. When people aren't His hands and feet, we get the mutant Christianity you see today where Jesus is available, but no one applies that Balm of Gilead for anyone else; therefore, though many may deny it, few issues are resolved. Churches are filled with fleshly, sick, mentally ill and taking meds Christians though Jesus is available. I would call that 'no [application of] balm in Gilead'. So, rhetoric aside: is there Balm in Gilead? Yes. Is there no Balm in Gilead? No.
The gifts of the Spirit can flow through even rebellious Christians (which confuses a lot of people), but the presence of the Lord is different. We experience this only when we do the things on His heart and "bear one another's burdens [through which we] fulfill the law of Christ" or "the law of Love", our only obligation under Grace.The Lord won't presence the company of those who don't love Him and therefore love (are His hands and feet to) each other. Spiritual words are interpreted spiritually or are not interpreted at all. I admit that I'm not talking like a lot of people on here; I'm saying a lot of things compacted into each post which can make what I say hard to understand, because they're supposed to provoke people to think and ask questions (though people rarely do). You can't always know what a person is saying simply by what they've written; but you're free to ask.
If there were no prophets and such today, Jesus would've said that all coming prophets would be false; instead He said to be wary of prophets who are false. There may be arguments and debates in the churches as to why or if prophets are needed today; the truth remains that Jesus has set them in His Church (not in church debates) eternally until the end of time when the Saints are perfected.
Okay. Yes, some people will fulfill their call within church buildings; some people are restrained from their calling within the four walls. (Paul is a good example; the other apostles stayed in Jerusalem for a while, but he had to move about all over and so was basically evicted from that region (Acts 9).) The marketplace where the world lives is the only place open and free enough for me to feel comfortable; that's how God made me. I'd be pretty upset if I had to sit still and then stand up and go home as a lifestyle.