Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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#81
Then did God lie when He said, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown"? Did God overthrow Nineveh in forty days? Did God have every intention of destroying Nineveh as He stated? What happened?
The wages of sin is death! Did God lie? Aren't we sinners? Don't even saved people sin?

You are failing to take into account god's mercy and Grace.

The Ninevites heard the message, BELIEVED, repented, and were spared. God knows the end from the beginning and EVERYTHING in between.

The idea that God changes His mind, that He can be surprised, that He can learn something from us is patently absurd!

So, I submit the very premise of the question is flawed. God cannot lie, and He didn't to Jonah.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#82
The author of the OP is trying to divorce faith and the new birth from each other. Its not so in salvation. They both happen at the exact same time.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#83
The wages of sin is death! Did God lie? Aren't we sinners? Don't even saved people sin?

You are failing to take into account god's mercy and Grace.

The Ninevites heard the message, BELIEVED, repented, and were spared. God knows the end from the beginning and EVERYTHING in between.

The idea that God changes His mind, that He can be surprised, that He can learn something from us is patently absurd!

So, I submit the very premise of the question is flawed. God cannot lie, and He didn't to Jonah.
You're dealing with an open theist. God does not know all things according to him. If God is not omniscient, neither is him omnipotent. He can't control what He does not know.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
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#84
If you confess from the heart 'Jesus is Lord', you are saved. If you don't, you are not. Its not that complicated. The hard part is truly showing lost folk their need of Him in all parts of their life.
Yeah, don't sound hard to me either....If thou confess with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word so I think the only thing you can do for lost folk is give them the word of God and then it's between them and God as to IF they will accept it or not.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#86
Yeah, don't sound hard to me either....If thou confess from the heart that Jesus is Lord and believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word so I think the only thing you can do for lost folk is give them the word of God and then it's between them and God as to IF they will accept it or not.
The problem stems, not from their ears, but their hearts. Paul laid out in Romans 8:5-9 the conditions of both the lost and saved. The lost hate God, are His enemy, even at enmity with Him. That's why they will not confess "Jesus is Lord", because they hate Him.

God must first wrought grace into their hearts, and then, and only then, will they confess "Jesus is Lord."
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#88
If you confess from the heart 'Jesus is Lord', you are saved. If you don't, you are not. Its not that complicated. The hard part is truly showing lost folk their need of Him in all parts of their life.
We have to do something first to be saved, believe first. We are not saved before we believe.
He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:30*-‬31 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.16.30-31.NIV
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#89
The author of the OP is trying to divorce faith and the new birth from each other. Its not so in salvation. They both happen at the exact same time.
Penned got it right above when he said that some of Gods attributes were being forgotten in the mans thinking. There are all these balls we have to juggle and the balls are Gods attributes. We become confused when we temporarily forget to admit one or two of His attributes as we are thinking.

And you have it right in your above post that the two things are being divorced from each other.

The question is: WHY is he trying to separate them? Why will a man fight so strenuously to blame blind men for their blindness? At first blush it appears to be a lack of humility but when I search deeper I think that...to blame the victim (the blind man) is less painful than to face straight on the agony of why he was given his sight while another man remains blind and most especially if he sees that the blind man is naturally kinder and better than he himself ever was. It is excruciating pain. You scarcely what to do with that pain you feel for the blind man EXCEPT to somehow blame him.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,912
113
#90
The problem stems, not from their ears, but their hearts. Paul laid out in Romans 8:5-9 the conditions of both the lost and saved. The lost hate God, are His enemy, even at enmity with Him. That's why they will not confess "Jesus is Lord", because they hate Him.

God must first wrought grace into their hearts, and then, and only then, will they confess "Jesus is Lord."
Amen, I do get that...God sends out the call and draws the lost to his Son...Then is it not their choice, as to IF they shall confess with their mouth and believe in their hearts, then they shall be saved.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#91
Of course God knows all...and I'm probably steering this away from Jonah, but I really would like to hear a Calvinist's perspective on Jeremiah 18 and why God is giving them the condition of if they repent or turn, then He will repent or change his mind.
There was no if you do not repent or if you repent in Jonah's message, rather, "Yet forty days and Nineveh SHALL be overthrown.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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#92
I do like that scenario, but is this not the same concept, of if you shalt confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved.
Very good point sister. But it still comes back to faith. We were not sick, or hurt, WE WERE DEAD! A dead man can do nothing but be dead UNTIL someone brings them to life.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the thinking that I did NOTHING, NOT EVEN MUSTER UP THE FAITH MYSELF, to believe. But this is likely a pride issue.

Since I believe God gives a measure of faith to every man, and since not every man acts on that faith, I think from our perspective we have a free will to act on that measure of faith. So I guess i differ a little with Calvinism there.

But even there, I would ask why do some hear and believe, and others don't? Jesus tells us that no man can come to the Father unless He draws them.

In these matters I think 1 Corinthians 13[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

So I think we're ok if we read the next verse and apply to our lives!
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#93
We have to do something first to be saved, believe first. We are not saved before we believe.
He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:30*-‬31 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.16.30-31.NIV
Yes! But as I said way back toward the beginning of the thread, the argument is not over whether one must have faith to be saved - that is a given. God saves through faith.

The nexus of the argument when it is stripped to it's seed is whether that faith comes from within the man or from without.

We have our answer here: saved by His kindness through faith, and even that faith not of ourselves so no man can boast!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,671
3,541
113
#94
The wages of sin is death! Did God lie? Aren't we sinners? Don't even saved people sin?

You are failing to take into account god's mercy and Grace.

The Ninevites heard the message, BELIEVED, repented, and were spared. God knows the end from the beginning and EVERYTHING in between.

The idea that God changes His mind, that He can be surprised, that He can learn something from us is patently absurd!

So, I submit the very premise of the question is flawed. God cannot lie, and He didn't to Jonah.
God knows the end from the beginning. I'm not going to add to the word of God.

God can not be surprised. God knew if Nineveh did not believe the message of destruction and in turn repent, He would destroy them. God also knew that if Nineveh did not repent, He would destroy them like He said.

God did not lie. God changed His mind. I'm not willing to add to Scripture to make it say something else.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#95
This is not true what you are stating here, it is more complicated than this.

The person (atheist) will believe but the belief will come from God.
I agree and we can't ever forget that we live and operate in time and space, so to try to sum up God, His plan, and His ways into such simple statements as "one doesn't have to believe in God nor the Gospel to be saved", or "God chooses some people for hell", is a WAY oversimplification in my opinion, and honestly a straw-man. The main thing is that NONE of us deserve to be saved, we are all guilty before His Holiness. The thing is God is so good that He made a way to redeem us, He stepped into His creation, fulfilled His law, then lay His life down to become the sacrifice, to become the ONE just man in history, paying the price for the whole worlds sin so we might be reconciled to Him as we were created to be. The fact He saves any of us is testament to His limitless good.

I truly feel that the mindset that anyone at all "deserves" salvation, and that God not giving salvation to someone is somehow unjust, and is completely wrong IMO. I understand how the thought of God being in control of EVERYTHING is hard, I also struggled with these same things before. However seeing everything through the lens of Gods Kingdom change my whole perspective personally, and has lit a fire in me like never before. It makes it so much bigger than just personal salvation. Jesus didn't just die for me, He did die for me and please don't think I'm trying to distract from the awesome craziness and profound importance of that in each of our lives, but Jesus clearly tells us He came to bring His Kingdom. He even told us to pray His Kingdom come, His will be done, ON EARTH as it is in Heaven. Then likens the Kingdom to a mustard seed, and leaven through a loaf. We are the means He uses to do this, and guess what? He alone gets the glory for it all, not us, not our decisions, not our religious routines, Him ALONE, and praise His holy name for that.

See this is why I would rather talk about these things face to face as well, and also why I really do not like denominational labels. First I don't think any one group has all truth 100% nailed down, I don't think that's even possible really. Second when you have a label like this the assumption is you personally agree with everything that label proclaims and that may not be the case. For example I go to a Pentecostal church that preaches about tongues being evidence of the believers salvation, and the pre-trib rapture, I honestly don't agree with these things and have a pretty different view, but I still love my church, still believe they are saved and my pastor proclaims truth, and believe this is who God put over me at this time. My point is if I just told you I go to an AG Pentecostal church you would most likely , and fairly, assume I agree with these things when I don't.

For me personally I just want to grow closer to Jesus, I have no desire at all to be known as any other label nor pledge myself to only one specific group of teachings. My view has grown and changed, and I'm on a walk and won't be done until He calls me I imagine. I just want to know Him better through His word, and at this point I believe His word says He is in control of everything, I believe His Kingdom is growing and will continue to grow until everything is under Jesus, I believe He saves us to spread His Kingdom, and that not one of us the Father has given Him He will lose. I also believe that everything I do see now I only see because He opened my eye's to it, and I am still completely dumbfounded that He even could use a riffraff like me for anything at all. I also believe we should focus more on what brings us together rather than what we disagree on, this in no way means compromise truth, it's just that we are called to be one body and honestly He is who changes minds and hearts through His truth, so if we are actually together to share that truth in love I see more truths realized by His power, in them yes, but in me as well. Just my thoughts on the matter.
 
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Dec 28, 2016
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#97
We have to do something first to be saved, believe first. We are not saved before we believe.
He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:30*-‬31 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.16.30-31.NIV
Its it not dependent on man's will, but God's mercy. That's my paraphrasing Romans 9:16.

Why are you divorcing faith from the new birth?

If faith comes first, and then the new birth happens afterwards, you have someone justified before being born again.

If the new birth happens prior to having faith, you have a born again lost person. No one is justified without faith.

That's why we say faith and the new event happen at the exact same time.

Its no different with the event you asked from Acts 16. When he had faith, he was saved, he was born again. Before he had faith, he was still lost. When he had faith, he was saved.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#98
I agree and we can't ever forget that we live and operate in time and space, so to try to sum up God, His plan, and His ways into such simple statements as "one doesn't have to believe in God nor the Gospel to be saved", or "God chooses some people for hell", is a WAY oversimplification in my opinion, and honestly a straw-man. The main thing is that NONE of us deserve to be saved, we are all guilty before His Holiness. The thing is God is so good that He made a way to redeem us, He stepped into His creation, fulfilled His law, then lay His life down to become the sacrifice, to become the ONE just man in history, paying the price for the whole worlds sin so we might be reconciled to Him as we were created to be. The fact He saves any of us is testament to His limitless good.

I truly feel that the mindset that anyone at all "deserves" salvation, and that God not giving salvation to someone is somehow unjust, and is completely wrong IMO. I understand how the thought of God being in control of EVERYTHING is hard, I also struggled with these same things before. However seeing everything through the lens of Gods Kingdom change my whole perspective personally, and has lit a fire in me like never before. It makes it so much bigger than just personal salvation. Jesus didn't just die for me, He did die for me and please don't think I'm trying to distract from the awesome craziness and profound importance of that in each of our lives, but Jesus clearly tells us He came to bring His Kingdom. He even told us to pray His Kingdom come, His will be done, ON EARTH as it is in Heaven. Then likens the Kingdom to a mustard seed, and leaven through a loaf. We are the means He uses to do this, and guess what? He alone gets the glory for it all, not us, not our decisions, not our religious routines, Him ALONE, and praise His holy name for that.

See this is why I would rather talk about these things face to face as well, and also why I really do not like denominational labels. First I don't think any one group has all truth 100% nailed down, I don't think that's even possible really. Second when you have a label like this the assumption is you personally agree with everything that label proclaims and that may not be the case. For example I go to a Pentecostal church that preaches about tongues being evidence of the believers salvation, and the pre-trib rapture, I honestly don't agree with these things and have a pretty different view, but I still love my church, still believe they are saved and my pastor proclaims truth, and believe this is who God put over me at this time. My point is if I just told you I go to an AG Pentecostal church you would most likely , and fairly, assume I agree with these things when I don't.

For me personally I just want to grow closer to Jesus, I have no desire at all to be known as any other label nor pledge myself to only one specific group of teachings. My view has grown and changed, and I'm on a walk and won't be done until He calls me I imagine. I just want to know Him better through His word, and at this point I believe His word says He is in control of everything, I believe His Kingdom is growing and will continue to grow until everything is under Jesus, I believe He saves us to spread His Kingdom, and that not one of us the Father has given Him He will lose. I also believe that everything I do see now I only see because He opened my eye's to it, and I am still completely dumbfounded that He even could use a riffraff like me for anything at all. I also believe we should focus more on what brings us together rather than what we disagree on, this in no way means compromise truth, it's just that we are called to be one body and honestly He is who changes minds and hearts through His truth, so if we are actually together to share that truth in love I see more truths realized by His power, in them yes, but in me as well. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Brother...WHY do you insist on always making me weep??!
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#99
Calvinism's order of salvation places the new birth BEFORE having faith in Christ. That logic turns Hab 2:4 on its head "the just shall live by his faith" into " the just shall live and they don't even have to believe in God first".
If someone believes in justice, they then believe in God, even if they don't know it.
Look at the Samaritan in Luke 10 who believed in mercy and justice; whereas look at the priest and Rabbi in the same scripture who did not believe in mercy and justice; who would you say believed in God who is Love (1 John 4:8 & 16)?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Amen, I do get that...God sends out the call and draws the lost to his Son...Then is it not their choice, as to IF they shall confess with their mouth and believe in their hearts, then they shall be saved.
If you read Romans 8:28-30, you see all those who were predestined were the same ones He glorified. Then in John 6, when Jesus said no one can come to Him except the Father draws them[John 6:44], the Greek word for draw means to literally drag off. Its the same Greek word used when Peter drew his sword[John 18:10] and drew the net to shore in John 21:11.

This doesn't mean that God drags us against our wills, kicking and screaming, but effectually draws us through the effectual call of the gospel.
 
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