GOD'S DISCIPLINE ISN'T PUNISHEMENT FOR PAST SINS...

FlyingDove · Apr 25, 2018

Every time I read Nehemiah6 unfounded attacks on known Christians. 2 Pet 2:16 (B) comes to mind...

Nehemiah6 HATES much:

Some common misconceptions about God; #58

Nehemiah6 said, Even if his credentials were acceptable, he is a false teacher and that is the bottom line. There are all kinds of theologians, scholars, evangelists, pastors, and teachers who are completely off base and attack the Word of God at every opportunity. When it comes to spiritual matters, academic or other qualifications mean nothing. The apostles were "unlearned men" and we should never forget that.

FlyingDove's comment: Nehemiah6 HATES much! Theologians, scholars, evangelists, pastors. To include: Joseph Prince, Paul Ellis, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, Pat Robertson, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagain. We can now ad Andrew Farley and Jeremy White to his list. I could list as many CC christian posters as well.

So, what are the two greatest commandments?

Final thought: 1 John 3:15

Nehemiah6 · Apr 25, 2018

FlyingDove said:

And Flying Dove takes too may FLIGHTS OF FANCY. Hence an apt user name.

JGIG · Apr 25, 2018

PennEd said:

Agreed, PennEd, there is value in the Lord's Prayer.

Every element that you speak of is also not only touched on, but expanded in the Epistles.

The Apostles put what Jesus said into a New Covenant context - Be content and thankful in all circumstances because His grace is sufficient, and imparting to us that God is able to do more than we could ask or imagine, and yes - that we forgive others BUT not to receive forgiveness, but BECAUSE we are forgiven.

There is a distinct difference pre and post Cross, and goes to a core essential doctrine of the Christian faith, and that is salvation by faith in Christ and not salvation by works:

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (from Mt. 6)

32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. (from Eph. 4)

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. (from Col. 3)

Again, it comes down to rightly dividing the Word and grasping what was accomplished at the Cross.

Jesus clearly taught - before the Cross - preaching Law to those under Law - that in order to be forgiven, you HAD TO forgive. If you didn't, neither would the Father forgive you.

After the Cross, the Apostles clearly say that because you are forgiven - because in Christ, God FORGAVE you - forgive others AS the Lord forgave you. It's a complete paradigm shift without contradicting what Jesus taught before the Cross.

What Christ did at the Cross MATTERED. It ACCOMPLISHED things. The Resurrection. The Ascension. Christ's High Priesthood. They ALL MATTER!

If what Christ did didn't matter, why then the Cross? Why not simply continue on the same way?

In my opinion, the following flows out of the spirit of the Lord's Prayer, but expands on what Christ accomplished by His Works of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect High Priesthood:

14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen. (from Eph. 3)

\o/ \o/ \o/

-JGIG

7seasrekeyed · Apr 25, 2018

JGIG;3554659]Again with that sense of humor of yours!

And I don't believe that you've actually gone to the source and actually listened to anything that Farley teaches, because if you had, I'd expect to see proof of where he preaches a 'Third Covenant'.

well, I don't believe you actually read my posts very well because THIRD COVENANT is actually a term I coined.

and I think I will just keep on calling it what it is...a covenant dreamed up by false teachers

You cannot post such a reference because it does not exist.

please see above

You've either made that accusation up or are repeating what someone else says about what Farley teaches.

nope. I am refreshingly original. and I do actually research before I run off in all directions posting comments that are copy/pasted from somewhere else. however, when I do copy/paste something I SAY THAT I AM DOING SO

As for your claim that I've tried to degrade you personally, no, that's not the case. I've not called you ignorant, or stupid, or whatever - not one time.

right. maybe you should also double read your own posts instead of discharging angst that I can't help you with

who is the you there...someone else you had in mind?

I challenge you to listen to some of Farley's stuff.

There is no 'new gospel', 'third covenant', or any other absurd slanderous term you or those you have read about what they say he teaches can come up with.

You are posting out of complete ignorance, and that just ain't right .

Click to expand...

huh. well it seems you did in fact address the derogatory comments to my person rather than what I posted.

I have, however, called your bluff.

no. you just did not do a good job of understanding what I wrote or realizing that I coined the term you find so objectionable and said so IN the post

You've engaged in slander against someone you think you disagree with. I'm challenging you to go to the source.

not another person using slander where it has no business being used?

Unfortunately, I'm guessing you've invested too much into torpedoing Farley now that you won't go to the source for fear of being proven to be in error.

stop guessing. you do not seem to be very good at it.

It's too bad. Lots of good, orthodox, edifying teaching there.

well, what is too bad, since you seem so game, is that it would appear to be close to impossible to have you slow down long enough to admit your mistake here

I know I know...you don't make mistakes

I would be curious to know how you see Jesus? how do you view Jesus since Farley says His teachings are harsh on page 89 of one of his books..the one entitled 'God Without Religion'?

I'm wondering if you can actually discuss the teaching of Farley without personal insult towards someone you disagree with?

I am wondering if you agree with Farley's assessment of the gospels and his view of what Jesus taught?

joaniemarie · Apr 25, 2018

JGIG excellent posts as usual with very helpful information as usual. I very much appreciate your clarity in posting here on these forums. Your answers were very fair IMO no "denigration" whatsoever. The word denigrate means; to blacken, defame., To deny the validity or importance of; DISPARAGE slander the character or reputation of...

7seas., saying what we are discussing in this thread is a " 3rd covenant and a doctrine of demons" falls under the word "denigrate" and in the worse way.

Some people here need a reality check. Coming on a thread with the express purpose of arguing and "denigrating" fellow believers is not welcome. I see it often. Grown adults who ARE Christians post short sentences just to insult and "denigrate" What is the point???

It's been my observation that when a thread starts in which I don't agree with the OP's well known views., I've learned to avoid that thread knowing that my views would not be welcome. The same with threads that have wacky titles of subjects that have no interest for me whatsoever.

What good does it do to join a thread just to argue? Discussing issues and posting Bible verses and doing what the Bible says about coming together and reasoning with one another is what we are supposed to be doing. Differences WILL arise and so they should! Discussion and reasoning is a good thing. Calling fellow Christians heretics and perpetrators of doctrines of demons is NOT.

7seasrekeyed · Apr 25, 2018

joaniemarie said:

oh my

JGIG was wrong in her reply to me as you will see if you read what I replied to her

my observation is that you and those who agree with you, do not want anyone to have a different understanding even though YOU in particular, post often about the liberty we 'have in Christ to have a different understanding'

the point is, this is a DISCUSSION FORUM and it is not called The Joanie Gospel Truth Forum. EVERY single thread in this forum, in the BDF, with almost NO exceptions have more than the one understanding, as you so nicely put it, so what's your beef with people here?

you know, you can always start a blog or if you have the know how, your own personal forum where you can ban anyone you find objectionable

what you do not like here, is that people with the ability to form their own thoughts object to the copy/paste op's that form the considerable amount of what you create

this is a discussion forum, once again, and if you and JGIG feel the desire to denigrade people rather than discuss the objections of people, then you may be in the wrong place

this is not a platform to preach at people, as you seem to usually do and scold them because they have 'soiled' your perfectly good thread with both opinion and scripture that does not agree with your copy/paste

grow up

remember that we are all free to express our thoughts and concerns here as you like to post when someone disagrees with one of your copy/pastes

do unto others? maybe you should

JGIG · Apr 25, 2018

joaniemarie said:

Amen, Joanie.

I, like you, avoid threads where I feel like I would be perceived as tearing down rather than building up others in who they are in Christ.

There are some here who think it's their 'duty' to tear down anything that doesn't fit into their perceived theological box. And then they label us the bullies if we call them out on it! It really is the most amazing thing!

I'm content to post Scripture and teachings that point to Christ, His Work, and who believers are in Him and let folks make their own decisions.

So . . . what was this thread about again?

Oh yeah, the discipline of God being something to prepare us for our future, not to punish us for our past . . .

Good stuff!

-JGIG =)

joaniemarie · Apr 25, 2018

7seas., Discussion is welcome... fighting is not. What you just posted here and in the other thread is not discussion or coming together to reason about the Bible and seeing Jesus., it's fighting plain and simple. I'm not going to argue with you. But I will pray for you.

JGIG · Apr 25, 2018

7seas . . . please learn how to use the quote tags properly. Your post (to the outside reader, not to me) is confusing and unclear about who is saying what. It's time consuming to reply to a mish-mash of who said what and to correct the quote tags after the fact.

Thanks in advance,
-JGIG

joaniemarie · Apr 25, 2018

JGIG said:

Thank you JGIG and God bless you too. I love to discuss Jesus and want to build up not tear down. The devotional that was the OP was in my email the other day and it was a real blessing. I forgot the couple's name but will repost the OP so to get back on track. I think it's a good subject too.

joaniemarie · Apr 25, 2018

joaniemarie said:

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Let me hear of your unfailing love each morning, for I am trusting you. Show me where to walk, for I give myself to you. Psalm 143:8

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[TD="class: yiv7111263287x_mobile-hidden, align: center"]Let me hear of your unfailing love each morning, for I am trusting you. Show me where to walk, for I give myself to you. Psalm 143:8

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God’s discipline isn’t PUNISHMENT for past sins!

The truth about “The chastening of the Lord” is probably the most confusing subject in the church world today. It has kept many believers in fear of something that is intended to bring peace to their lives. We should never be afraid of the Lord’s chastening. Rather, we should invite it into our lives and open our hearts to it. Why? It will help us experience the peace of God.

This short teaching is intended to clear up any misunderstanding or confusion you may have about what “chastening” really is.

God’s discipline isn’t punishment for past sins. It is godly instruction, insight, and wisdom for the future. You see, if God punishes you for past sins, He would have to apologize to Jesus who took our punishment for all sins. Besides, how can God punish you for past sins when He gave you His word, “He would never remember your sins again"? (Hebrews 12:8).

“For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth” (Hebrews 12:6).

If you study the origins of the word “chasten,” you will understand that the Greek word from which it is derived simply means “to train up as a child.” However, over time, translators and some early church fathers reinterpreted the meaning of the word to imply punishment.

Since Jesus showed us the character of His Father, we can easily see that Jesus “chastened” His disciples, but He didn’t punish them. For example, when they passed through Samaria, the Samaritans wouldn’t let Jesus and His disciples spend the night. The disciples were angry about this and asked Jesus if they should call fire down from heaven upon the Samaritans for their egregious insult to them. Jesus responded by correcting – aka chastening them – with truth. He said, “You don’t know what spirit you are of. I didn’t come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”

Let’s read the following verses that describe chastening and show its effects and results.

“If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons” (Hebrews 12:7-8).

God corrects us because He is our Father, and we are His children. A loving father has a responsibility to train and correct His children. Needless to say, this correction isn’t always pleasant. In fact, at times it can create inner turmoil as we make the necessary adjustments to our thoughts and belief systems.

This is what the word “scourging” in verse 6 refers to. No doubt, reevaluating what you once believed or thought to be true can be traumatic. And so, I am sure the disciples were conflicted when Jesus rebuked them for wanting to call fire down to destroy the Samaritans. He pointed out their hearts weren’t seeing things as they should. Jesus also explained to them His purpose wasn’t to destroy people’s lives; it was to save them.

The disciples’ views and beliefs did not align with Jesus’. They believed it was OK to call down judgment if people didn’t do what was expected of them. But Jesus chastened/corrected them for believing what they did. Why? Jesus knew that in the future, a different type of fire would sweep across Samaria saving and delivering the entire city (Acts 8:14-17).
If Jesus didn’t correct the disciples about their wrong views and beliefs, they couldn’t have been used mightily in Samaria.

Let’s keep following this insight into chastening, which the author of Hebrews is helping believers understand.

Furthermore, we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless, afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby (Hebrews 12:9-11).

A comparison is made in the preceding verses between our natural fathers whom we honor and our heavenly Father whose corrections lead us to profitable, fruitful lives where we experience God’s holiness and His peace.

Clearly, the discipline of God isn’t punishment but godly instruction and wisdom for your future. Jesus’ disciples experienced His chastening for their wrong views. They had to realize that their beliefs and purpose were out of sync with what Jesus believed and His purpose. Later, we see the fruit of peace fills the hearts of His disciples as they joyfully went to the same Samaritans they previously wanted to destroy.

We should all crave God’s discipline and never be afraid of it. It will always keep our hearts in peace and produce the fruits of righteousness.

Devotional by Ed and Laurie Elliot
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OK., Now I need to re read it again.

joaniemarie · Apr 25, 2018

One of the reasons for posting this was because I know the word "scourging" is used so much and so many Christians believe as I did that we are being somehow scourged physically and spiritually by God.

I'm also seeing people have a real struggle actually believing that God is not going to "scourge" them. Jesus was scourged. The definition of scourging is not something a loving Father does to His children. It's something Romans do to prisoners.

BenFTW · Apr 25, 2018

JGIG said:

Question for you, HRFTD: How are you typing and seeing the computer screen?

I ask because Jesus says to cut off your hand and put out your eye if they offend you. I'm guessing that in the time you've been here at CC your hands have offended at least twice and eyes the same, and should be gone by now.

If you haven't rid yourselves of your offending parts, you have ignored at least SOME of the words of Jesus.

According to you, that's an abomination.

Dismiss this point if you wish, but you DO choose to ignore, or a better phrase would be to 'rightly divide' the Word of Truth, yes?

You choose to say we must forgive IN ORDER to be forgiven as Jesus states in the 'Lord's Prayer', which was taught under the Old Covenant before He did the Work of the Cross, while we choose to say that we forgive BECAUSE we are forgiven, BECAUSE of Jesus' Work of the Cross, as taught in Ephesians and Colossians.

In my opinion, YOUR interpretation is the abomination, because it declares that NO ONE can be forgiven UNTIL they forgive others. That's salvation by works, and for the incredibly abused and wounded, an impossibility without first receiving God's forgiveness and New Life in Christ!

Believe what you like, but you are engaging in just as serious of an abomination as you accuse others of if you are still in possession of your members.

Either apply ALL of the words of Jesus or learn to rightly divide them, understanding when He was preaching Law to those under the Law and when He was pointing to the New Covenant yet to be ratified in His Blood.

-JGIG

OH NOOO!!! JGIG, he hasn't responded since you wrote this. It seems he was obedient to Christ's words, haha.

7seasrekeyed · Apr 25, 2018

JGIG said:

what a childish response to my post

you know the blue type is my response to what you falsely posted

this makes you look even less credible than you already were

I don't know how people can be so dishonest as what you just revealed yourself to be

you are NOT open to an actual discussion but instead you will snipe from behind passive aggressiveness

very typical type of response when an actual bluff is called

you really disappointed me. I did think you had just misunderstood but that may not be the case

7seasrekeyed · Apr 25, 2018

JGIG said:

I would be curious to know how you see Jesus? how do you view Jesus since Farley says His teachings are harsh on page 89 of one of his books..the one entitled 'God Without Religion'?

I'm wondering if you can actually discuss the teaching of Farley without personal insult towards someone you disagree with?

I am wondering if you agree with Farley's assessment of the gospels and his view of what Jesus taught?

7seasrekeyed · Apr 25, 2018

I'm just going to copy/paste from another site which I am sure no one here will object to since that is the method preferred by the person who created the op

I don't want to give the impression that the only information I have on the man comes from dissenters. His website is a great resource for hearing what he believes, in his own words and own style of reflecting on what we 'all have been taught', although after listening to him use this expression before he gives you his revelation, gets old.

I have learned, from Farley himself, that in fact we all have NOT been taught when he thinks we all have been taught

perhaps his former teaching at a Catholic University is what he is referring to, but I do not have the impression from other members who disagree with his teaching that they are Catholic and have never been taught right because they have never heard Farley straighten everyone out

SOURCE

7seasrekeyed · Apr 25, 2018

source as above. if you follow this, you will note that Farley expresses what Ben and others here are saying about forgivness.

or is it that those who say this follow what Farley is saying?

you decide and remember that

you can read his entire 'questionnaire'. as found in his book, with the link above

so yeah...I very much disagree with Farley's teaching and I object to being told that if you disagree, all you really want to do is argue here

well hardly. this man reveals some very sketchy personal ideas about Jesus, the gospels and how he interprets them

Farley's True/False Quiz
Farley's "challenge" takes the form of a true/false "gospel quiz" near the beginning of The Naked Gospel. He says that if you answer "true" to any of these statements about sin and salvation, you are wrong. You suffer from what he calls "obsessive-Christianity disorder."

"Christians should ask God to forgive and cleanse them when they sin."
False, says Farley. On pages 149 and following, he claims that 1 John 1:9 is a salvation verse, and does not apply to believers. On page 160 he claims that no Christian need ever pray, "forgive us our trespasses," because Jesus' model prayer is "an Old Covenant prayer taught to Jews before once-for-all forgiveness was accomplished." Farley ignores the fact that First John chapter one is addressed to believers in Christ, not unbelievers, and he frequently confuses the covenants.

7seasrekeyed · Apr 25, 2018

let me just put one more in here from his list of questions, again same source. interesting reading and sounds quite similar to what I have read from some posters in this forum

I know I have read posts in this forum wherein the poster seems to think 'presto' no more old self. never going to have to deal with that again.

this is absolutely false

if it were true, you would never sin again.

JGIG · Apr 25, 2018

JGIG said:

7seasrekeyed said:

I know that you made up the term, that was kind of my point.

And it's the classic definition of setting up a straw man argument:

I did understand what you wrote. And encouraged you to go to the source (Andrew Farley), which you claimed to have done, but I see zero evidence of it, based on what you did post (your made up term, 'Third Covenant').

I can only work with what you put out there, 7seas.

I view Jesus as the One Who gave everything to provide those who would believe in Him with eternal life. And that's not just our lives made longer, but Christ in us, the hope of glory! It's His Life in us NOW!

Did Jesus preach the Law to those under the Law? Absolutely. And in a way where it was clear that keeping it was an unattainable feat, which was to lead them from the hopelessness of the Law to the grace of the Cross.

Note that Christ preached 'forgive or God will not forgive you' (an undeniably harsh teaching, especially to the abused!) to some and 'your sins are forgiven you' to others who didn't even seek His forgiveness!

Jesus preached the Law as it was given, not a watered-down version that some were pretending to be able to 'keep'. Cut off your hand, poke out your eye - these ARE harsh teachings, meant to point us to the end of ourselves and to come to Christ!

Jesus was and is the friend of sinners - He came to seek and save the lost and give them New Life.

And those very paradoxes drove the religious folks of the day mad. Mad enough that they wanted to kill Him.

How do I see Jesus?

He's brilliant. He taught what needed to be taught when it needed to be taught. He's love. I love Him because He first loved me. God in the flesh, He embodies ultimate grace toward mankind in His Work of salvation and as He teaches us to say no to ungodliness. He ever lives to intercede for us.

I'm wondering if you can discuss the actual teachings of Farley using the actual teachings of Farley and not stuff you admittedly made up.

Farley accurately shows where Jesus taught Law (which those who are in Christ are dead to) and where Jesus taught Grace, so overall, yes. Any minor disagreements I may have with what Farley teaches are far outweighed by his very sound teaching of the Good News of the Gospel and maturity for the believer in Christ.

-JGIG

JGIG · Apr 25, 2018

BenFTW said:

That would indeed be a tragedy.

Sad thing is that some, pushed to the extreme, have actually done such to themselves (and worse) to try to 'get right' or 'stay right' with God.

-JGIG

GOD'S DISCIPLINE ISN'T PUNISHEMENT FOR PAST SINS...

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