Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)

Colours · Dec 26, 2012

I agree. He felt temptation.

But Satan cannot tempt God. Satan can only tempt what has flesh. And Jesus, was a man. Albeit a perfect, sinless man, come from the womb of Mary and the seed of God. His flesh was wounded. He felt pain of flesh. He felt desire of flesh. He felt temptation in it.

All these things, God cannot feel because God cannot be harmed in this way. Nor tempted in this way. God does not desire the things of the flesh, or feel temptation. He is the creator.

Therefore God, as an entity, as the creator of all things, cannot be the Son, who is born OF God, yet who is separate from God in the state of flesh.

The son sits at the right hand of God. Therefore they are seperate. Like a son is separate from his father.

But this Father and Son, are the PERFECT example of Father and Son also.

'Forgive them father, they know not what they do'.

'Adonai (My God), eli lama sabachthani (Why have you turned from me?)'

Jesus speaks to God outside of himself.

Colours · Dec 26, 2012

God tells us He is 'in all and through all', but we, as humans, in our free wills, in our sins, are seperated from God. Our state is not a state of being AS God, but it is a state of being FROM God. As a Son is from a Father.

Jesus came to be one of us. One of humanity, in all his love, showing us how to live and then dying a painful death so Hades can be defeated.

It is this brotherhood, compassion, love, kindness that sets Jesus apart from us, and puts him in the realm of righteousness along with God. He is the perfect man, as God is the perfect creator. He is the perfect Son, as God is the perfect father. He is the perfect brother, as we are the imperfect sheep.

It is to be human that shows all the humility of Jesus and this is exactly why God has handed Him the judgement of men. His mercy, meekness, forgiveness. All the things which make him the perfect son. The perfect brother. Someone his Father is proud of.

This is how I see Jesus. I know there are many different takes on the whole 'Jesus being God' idea, and whether He is, isn't. But really, like keniseyes said a lot of it is perspective.

Colours · Dec 26, 2012

Also, Jesus is the Son of a woman, and of God. So then how can God be both his own son, and be born into flesh?

There was the word, and the word was WITH God, and the word was as God, and the word became flesh.

In other words, the teachings of God (towards man, as the whole bible is written, directed at men) became flesh. The perfect teachings and example came to earth to show us through action, rather than just words in a book, how to live. He obeyed every law and fulfilled every command in that book.

Like God saying 'Here is the bible, but that is not enough for you, is it? So here is also a perfect example of my love, my teaching, my way, my very own son, who has done no man any harm, will come and live as I wish a man to live, and he shall die forgiving those who hate him'.

Wow.

Colours · Dec 26, 2012

The greek here is 'pros ton theon' meaning 'the word was there from the beginning (being what God spoke, as God was there from the beginning), the word was 'centered toward' God (being of God's values), and the word was God (ie. This oneness existed in the two (both verbal teaching, and God Himself), and the word was made into flesh (the word pertaining to God was made as example).

The word existed at the very beginning, and the word and God reciprocate (as God cannot lie). This singularity was always there. God's infallibility. And it was made example in flesh.

It's clear to me that this means, in plain english that God is as His word. He is, what He is. (I am as I am). His teaching always mirrors perfectly against him, and has done since the very beginning. And He created a fleshy example of His perfect teaching, who was Jesus.

river_stone · Dec 26, 2012

HMMMMMM. How many days will this continue? Rock if you do not like the held beliefs of the administrators here and this site then why stay? You do not attend a protestant church where they hold much different views so if you are unhappy with this site do not log in.

Rock022 and Geometar answer me this: what must one do to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Please do not copy/paste something from a document that is not contained between the covers of the Bible. Use your own words. What must one to obtain eternal life.....................

kenisyes · Dec 26, 2012

river_stone said:

The reason I like this site is because, like God, the administrators accept us where we are with God. If we all agreed, we'd have nothing to discuss. If we all went to sites that we agreed with, we could just leave the world thinking Christ has been divided into parts. I would like to hear Geometar and Rock 022's answers though.

Radioflyer · Dec 26, 2012

Besides lying the devil wants us, the human race to worship other things beside God. He even went so far as to suggest to Jesus “So if you worship me it will all be yours.” Being raised with 12 years in catholic schools I can say with authority we are taught “God is a busy man. You will get better results praying to the saints.” But I tell you Jesus said “it is written worship the Lord your God and serve him only.” I can’t quote it but absolute cretin scriptures say pray only to God, no one else. This is the whole point of elevating Mary above being a servant of God to queen of the universe.

James 1:5 If anyone lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord. He is a double minded man, unstable in all he does.

God is your teacher if you truly believe. Heb 11:6 No man can come to God without faith that he exist and rewards those that earnestly seek him. If you are taught by men, how do you know if it is lie or truth. ?Because it feels good? Sin always has instant feel good effects but If you have any kind of conscious, leaves you feeling dirty, defiled and when sin is full grown dead.

There is nothing better than experiencing the love of God and when it happens there will be no doubt. It is supernatural. For me getting there was huge battle but when I finally believed, after much thought, alone in a field staring at sky I simply said I know you are there Lord, because I know the devil exists. If it is true what everybody says you are good and devil is bad I want to know you because I want to be good person. What happened next cannot be described except to say I felt loved and accepted beyond any experience in life and He said “if you want to know me you need to read the bible.” Be certain the world will reward your faith with hatred but if you preserver eternal life with God in heaven will be yours. I wish you the best.
For people spreading lies the very best you can hope for is God has said you will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Mathew 5:19
I suggest you think of this chat and fellowship like you would school children coming together to compare notes and gain understanding. Some are right on, others are clueless and others are struggling to understand and still others drop out. Good wishes for all Dave

kenisyes · Dec 26, 2012

Radioflyer said:

I was always taught "if you want something done right, and done on time, ask the busy person".

Rock022 · Dec 26, 2012

river_stone said:

Why do you try to make me look as if I am an impostor? you have done the same in the chat rooms saying it is my fault people argue, you have told me to just be quiet and say nothing and leave my believes somewhere else, or that you will click a button you have and banned me. So I left the chat room. Now you come to the forum and tell me if I do not like it not to log in, I am also sure you are close to click that button because you do not like what I ask. Can I not discuss my believes here in the forums either? How long will this keep going? It has been going since Jesus came, and I do not suspect it will change any time soon.

But you asked me a question and here is a short answer. Man is not saved by faith alone one must also work for his salvation. Faith, Hope and Love. That would be a different forum for discussion.

Can you show me where in the bible says believe only in written word of God? What do people that can not read do? what do people who don't have a bible do? How have men in the past after Jesus resurrection where saved, if the bible was not put together almost 400 years after? and the printing press was not made until much later making the bible a scarce book.

Back to subject, I just can not reason how people say Jesus was different man and God. I Believe in the trinity Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not Father, Son, Man and Holy Spirit. And this has been the explanation I get for Mary being only the mother of the flesh. Mary should be discussed more often as she was the chosen one to be the mother, don't you think? This was not a lottery winner. People say she was married to Joseph and she had to have relations with him. They are raising the Son of God, do you think having relations was more important to them than Jesus? They where chosen for a reason, I would like to learn more about them. How they lived. If they did not go to heaven, what chance do I have, I who was not chosen for this.

Rock022 · Dec 26, 2012

Radioflyer said:

I have never heard this. What I have come to understand is to pray without ceasing, and pray for one another. We ask them to pray for us that is all.

Geometar · Dec 26, 2012

Rock022 said:

Yes,i agree.Asking them by plesent words.Like,Saint George,a Holy Warrior,pray to God for us sinners,in front of the Heavenly Throne.
Or,Trough the prayers of our holy fathers,Lord have mercy on us sinners.

Got it?

These holy people the Lord calls His friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. (John 15:14-15)
They are those He has received in His heavenly mansions in fulfillment of His words: Where I am, there you may be also. (John 14:3) Instead of praying for forgiveness of their sins, we praise them for their struggles in Christ. We make petitions to them asking them to pray for us and the remission of our sins and spiritual growth, seeking their help in our spiritual needs. The saints are near the Throne of God.
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, who praised the Lord. (Rev 5:11)

Grandpa · Dec 26, 2012

We are told to pray for each other. Not to each other...

If you pray to anyone other than God... that's a technical foul. Major error...

If you call Mary the Queen of Heaven and pray to her... that's a technical foul. Major error...

If you kneel before a statue and kiss pictures... that's a technical foul. Major error.

What is Gods' first commandment again, I'm having trouble remembering...? Is it something about doing whatever your church tells you to do and place tradition above all else? It feels like that's not quite right, though... can anyone help me out with this one???

Rock022 · Dec 26, 2012

Grandpa said:

To understand this we need to understand LOVE. What is good and pleasing to God? He wants us to love one another and Love Him above all. Revelation 8 shows us that the saints are offering prayers to God in the form of incense. This is good and pleasing to God. In 1 Timothy 2:1-4 Saint Paul tells us to pray for one another, this is good and pleasing to God, just like we ask the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints to pray for us. Jesus became the mediator of the new covenant just like Moses was the mediator of the old covenant, as you can find in Hebrews and Galatians. Now you might say they are dead, then why did Moses and Elijah appeared to the apostles and why was it important to write it? Clearly He is the God of the Living. Then you might say, but Deuteronomy says something against conjuring up spirits. Read it again, we are not to conjure up spirits for purposes of gaining information, we are to hear the prophets. Bottom line, yes it is good to go directly to Jesus there is no argument in that, but what is wrong to ask our brothers and sisters to pray for us? If you object to this then, why should we pray for each other? tell them they need to go directly to Jesus and not you. But that would be harsh right? Because that would be hate not love.

It is easy to hate, but difficult to love.

schoolofyoungprophet · Dec 27, 2012

Who is a mediator between us and God?
1)Mary
2) Dead saints
3) Jesus Christ
4) all of the above.

I say 3 Jesus Christ.
By his merits and his righteousness,in faith we can stand bold before the presence n pray,worship.

Without Christ all our good works and prayer are useless cuz its like a filthy rag before him,it offends him.

Geometar · Dec 27, 2012

The same effect as u speak to the wall.

Grandpa · Dec 27, 2012

Geometar said:

I know just how you feel...

Custos_Clavium · Dec 27, 2012

I just noticed this thread, and ignoring every post sandwiched between page 1-4, I have some insight to offer, if anyone cares, regarding the title of the thread.

----------

Way back in the day, aka ''The Early Church'', there were two heresies that threatened to divide Christianity for ages to come. They were called Arianism and Nestorianism. Both heresies were part of what is called the Christological Controversy, Christology being concerned with the nature of Christ.

Arianism, in layman's terms, is the denial of Jesus's divinity. Nestorianism, on the other hand, is a denial of Jesus's humanity.

Arius and Nestorius, from whom both heresies are named, were both priests of the early Church. Each one of them had tons of scripture to back up his point. But, like anyone with a Bible, reading the scriptures do not guarantee full understanding of them, hence: heresy is easy! So what did the early church do? They had councils, debates, meetings, and all sorts of fun activities to figure our what the heck was going on.

The Problem with Arianism: is that Arius was proposing the idea that there was a time when Jesus, the Son, was created by the father. The problem here is that Jesus is demoted from Co-equal, Co-eternal Son of the Living God to a mere creature.... Everything from the most glorious angel to the lowliest single-cell organism is just a creature...but not Jesus, not God. He cannot have been created as Arius proposes...or else the salvation he offers by his incarnation and sacrifice is still not enough...for a creature cannot redeem the created. Only the creator can redeem the created.

The council of Nicaea, called together by Emporer Constantine more out of an interest in keeping the empire together than giving a rip about theology, defined that: "Those...who affirm that the Son of God is of another hypostasis or substance, or a creature, or mutable or subject to change, such ones the catholic and apostolic church pronounces accursed and separated from the church." In other words, Jesus Christ, Son of God, second person of the Trinity, is GOD, not creature.

The Problem with Nestorianism: is that Nestorius could not accept the idea of the title given to Mary, that is, of Theotokos, or God-bearer...ie, Mary, Mother of God. In his mind, this insinuated that the Son of God was born of Mary in the sense that, before being born, he did not exist. Of course, if that is what the term Theotokos means, then it is not acceptable. But, in actuality, the title Theotokos is not meant to insinuate anything other than the fact that the child Mary bore to the world was, in fact, God in the Flesh: The Christ.

Nestorius felt that it was being said that the Creator was brought into the existence by a creature, Mary. Instead, what everyone else meant is that the second person of the Trinity, through whom all things were created, was brought into the flesh by birth, through Mary, from whom he acquired his human nature: "“As to his deity, he was born from the Father before the ages, but as to his humanity the very same one was born in the last days from the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, for our sake and the sake of our salvation: one in the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only Begotten, acknowledged to be unconfusedly, unalterably, undividedly, inseparably in two natures” - Council of Chalcedon.

So, while I know that it bothers many folks to hear someone call Mary the ''Mother of God'', the term is not meant to glorify Mary, but to remind Christians that Jesus Christ was in possession of a fully Human and fully Divine nature. The title points to the glory of God and the root of our Salvation in Christ: That he, who was Divine, took on our humanity so that we, fallen and sinful, could hope to find salvation in the one who even saved our human nature by taking it upon himself.

The Incarnation...what joy!

Newluke · Dec 27, 2012

schoolofyoungprophet said:

Who is a mediator between us and God?
1)Mary
2) Dead saints
3) Jesus Christ
4) all of the above.

I say 3 Jesus Christ.
By his merits and his righteousness,in faith we can stand bold before the presence n pray,worship.

Without Christ all our good works and prayer are useless cuz its like a filthy rag before him,it offends him.

Make it a poll

Geometar · Dec 27, 2012

Custos_Clavium said:

I just noticed this thread, and ignoring every post sandwiched between page 1-4, I have some insight to offer, if anyone cares, regarding the title of the thread.

----------

Way back in the day, aka ''The Early Church'', there were two heresies that threatened to divide Christianity for ages to come. They were called Arianism and Nestorianism. Both heresies were part of what is called the Christological Controversy, Christology being concerned with the nature of Christ.

Arianism, in layman's terms, is the denial of Jesus's divinity. Nestorianism, on the other hand, is a denial of Jesus's humanity.

Arius and Nestorius, from whom both heresies are named, were both priests of the early Church. Each one of them had tons of scripture to back up his point. But, like anyone with a Bible, reading the scriptures do not guarantee full understanding of them, hence: heresy is easy! So what did the early church do? They had councils, debates, meetings, and all sorts of fun activities to figure our what the heck was going on.

The Problem with Arianism: is that Arius was proposing the idea that there was a time when Jesus, the Son, was created by the father. The problem here is that Jesus is demoted from Co-equal, Co-eternal Son of the Living God to a mere creature.... Everything from the most glorious angel to the lowliest single-cell organism is just a creature...but not Jesus, not God. He cannot have been created as Arius proposes...or else the salvation he offers by his incarnation and sacrifice is still not enough...for a creature cannot redeem the created. Only the creator can redeem the created.

The council of Nicaea, called together by Emporer Constantine more out of an interest in keeping the empire together than giving a rip about theology, defined that: "Those...who affirm that the Son of God is of another hypostasis or substance, or a creature, or mutable or subject to change, such ones the catholic and apostolic church pronounces accursed and separated from the church." In other words, Jesus Christ, Son of God, second person of the Trinity, is GOD, not creature.

The Problem with Nestorianism: is that Nestorius could not accept the idea of the title given to Mary, that is, of Theotokos, or God-bearer...ie, Mary, Mother of God. In his mind, this insinuated that the Son of God was born of Mary in the sense that, before being born, he did not exist. Of course, if that is what the term Theotokos means, then it is not acceptable. But, in actuality, the title Theotokos is not meant to insinuate anything other than the fact that the child Mary bore to the world was, in fact, God in the Flesh: The Christ.

Nestorius felt that it was being said that the Creator was brought into the existence by a creature, Mary. Instead, what everyone else meant is that the second person of the Trinity, through whom all things were created, was brought into the flesh by birth, through Mary, from whom he acquired his human nature: "“As to his deity, he was born from the Father before the ages, but as to his humanity the very same one was born in the last days from the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, for our sake and the sake of our salvation: one in the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only Begotten, acknowledged to be unconfusedly, unalterably, undividedly, inseparably in two natures” - Council of Chalcedon.

So, while I know that it bothers many folks to hear someone call Mary the ''Mother of God'', the term is not meant to glorify Mary, but to remind Christians that Jesus Christ was in possession of a fully Human and fully Divine nature. The title points to the glory of God and the root of our Salvation in Christ: That he, who was Divine, took on our humanity so that we, fallen and sinful, could hope to find salvation in the one who even saved our human nature by taking it upon himself.

The Incarnation...what joy!

I c that someone finally use brain here!I am talking about this,but no one have no idea what is this all about.I can c many Arians and Nestorians,all together with Monoteists and Iconoclasms,hand by hand with their infalliblity.But speaking to them is like speak to the wall.
Greetings.

Geometar · Dec 27, 2012

Grandpa said:

Sorry Grandpa,u spent ages for nothing....

Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)

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