NAR, Cessationism, Darby, Scofield, Dispensationalism, Zionism and related theories

[Abiding]

If it was not for the fact that it was prevalent in the NT. and People like James and Jude as well as others fought it. I would agree. People want to make things new, when they are in fact old. One must remember, the roman church and the iron arm of the roman army took anything which was not according to their doctrines and ran it underground, where we would not know of it (if it existed as all at that time) it should be obvious that after the empire fell, and thus the power of the church, that these other doctrines would arise with the truth. People seem surprised, when they should not be surprised at all.

It is like the prophesy argument, Why do we need prophets today when the word tells us all things we need to know. and why they can;t give us an answer. The gospel and all of its different means is the same. The Scripture answers it all. We are not fighting anything different today, than Paul fought in his day, the names have changed, but the lies are the same.

True they are all shootoffs of the same heresies from the start of the church
Wearing sneakier outfits. Quick to mutate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

True they are all shootoffs of the same heresies from the start of the church
Wearing sneakier outfits. Quick to mutate.

Satan has been shooting these lies off since the beginning. He is not telling new lies, he tells the same ones with different names

 

[eternally-gratefull]

True they are all shootoffs of the same heresies from the start of the church
Wearing sneakier outfits. Quick to mutate.

By the way, your supposed to hate me like Zone because I am a pre-millenialists. So why are you talking to me like a brother??..lol

 

[Abiding]

Satan has been shooting these lies off since the beginning. He is not telling new lies, he tells the same ones with different names

Like those fanatic pretribers...jk

 

[Abiding]

By the way, your supposed to hate me like Zone because I am a pre-millenialists. So why are you talking to me like a brother??..lol

Im just baiting you to draw you back into the agguement we had for days about the baptism in fire
thats where i met you and zone on my first day here.

You were on her side...i was double teamed...whipping both your tails
good till zone whacked me with a spell...then i had to let her win...in doing
so i had to let you win.....still bugs me

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Im just baiting you to draw you back into the agguement we had for days about the baptism in fire
thats where i met you and zone on my first day here.

You were on her side...i was double teamed...whipping both your tails
good till zone whacked me with a spell...then i had to let her win...in doing
so i had to let you win.....still bugs me

I forgot all about that. Maybe I been here to long??..lol

 

[Abiding]

Anyway its the Gospel that connects us. EG
And your a great defender of the true Gospel.
Even with all that lack of sleep.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Anyway its the Gospel that connects us. EG
And your a great defender of the true Gospel.
Even with all that lack of sleep.

The true gospel is all that matters. Thats why we can disagree on other things and still have a close bond of brotherhood because we are brothers in Christ.

The rest we will get the answer to one day, and who knows. we may find we were both wrong in areas (most likely the case)..lol

 

[cfultz3]

Like those fanatic pretribers...jk

or those who think they will be under God's wrath...jk

 

[Abiding]

or those who think they will be under God's wrath...jk

Ill agree...but i had to pray first

 

[Crossfire]

If it was not for the fact that it was prevalent in the NT. and People like James and Jude as well as others fought it. I would agree. People want to make things new, when they are in fact old. One must remember, the roman church and the iron arm of the roman army took anything which was not according to their doctrines and ran it underground, where we would not know of it (if it existed as all at that time) it should be obvious that after the empire fell, and thus the power of the church, that these other doctrines would arise with the truth. People seem surprised, when they should not be surprised at all.

It is like the prophesy argument, Why do we need prophets today when the word tells us all things we need to know. and why they can;t give us an answer. The gospel and all of its different means is the same. The Scripture answers it all. We are not fighting anything different today, than Paul fought in his day, the names have changed, but the lies are the same.

When I speak of free grace I'm referring to "Free Grace Theology", the doctrine birthed out of the Dallas Theological Seminary in the 1960s and taught by men like Chuck Swindoll who teach "Carnal Christianity", the notion that one can be saved saved without showing any fruit of salvation. They teach that all one needs to do is confess Jesus Christ as Savior and they receive a "get out of hell free" card no matter how sinful they live their life which is nothing more than modern day Antinomianism, a doctrine both Martin Luther & John Calvin denounced as heresy.

The poison of the 20th century was Antinomianism (licentiousness) and it's still alive and well in the church throughout various denominations appearing in different forms. Hyper-Spiritualism just so happens to be the Continuationist version, Carnal Christianity the Baptist version, gay pastors the Lutheran version, homosexual marriages the Reformed version. Regardless of what mask it wears, it all boils down to the belief that one can hypothetically be lead by the Holy Spirit even though both their behavior and lifestyle proves that they are dominated by the flesh.

 

[jimmydiggs]

the acceptance of homosexual relationships and openly gay pastors being the result.

To my knowledge, that has only occured in the ELCA and PCUSA, however, one could not properly call these Lutheran or Reformed.

Both Lutheran and Reformed Churches have been infected by this poison as well

I don't know about Lutheranism, but the Reformed most generally fall under fire from Free Gracers for proclaiming Lordship Salvation.

 

[Crossfire]

It is like the prophesy argument, Why do we need prophets today when the word tells us all things we need to know. and why they can;t give us an answer. The gospel and all of its different means is the same. The Scripture answers it all. We are not fighting anything different today, than Paul fought in his day, the names have changed, but the lies are the same.

Unfortunately when most people think of Prophecy, they think of it from an Old Testament perspective however, scripture states that there are "Words of Knowledge", "Words of Wisdom" as well as old fashioned Prophecy.From many discussions that I've had in real time as well as from various discussions on these forums, it appears to me that very few today seem to know the difference between one or the other.

Besides, why anyone would receive any kind of spiritual advice from someone that they do not know on a personal level to bear good fruit or not is beyond me.

 

[RickShafer]

Reading this thread is funny.
That everyone is an expert.
Because every soul's ways are right in their own eyes; - Proverbs 16:2.
I've seen more judging in this single thread based on perception and not reality than in
any other I've read.
That's as specific as I'll get.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When I speak of free grace I'm referring to "Free Grace Theology", the doctrine birthed out of the Dallas Theological Seminary in the 1960s and taught by men like Chuck Swindoll who teach "Carnal Christianity", the notion that one can be saved saved without showing any fruit of salvation. They teach that all one needs to do is confess Jesus Christ as Savior and they receive a "get out of hell free" card no matter how sinful they live their life which is nothing more than modern day Antinomianism, a doctrine both Martin Luther & John Calvin denounced as heresy.

No one I know of from Dallas Theological seminary teaches this "free grace" as you call it. Quite a few of the pastors I studied under graduated from there. and they do not teach this. Not saying there are none. There are bad people which comes from every college.

The poison of the 20th century was Antinomianism (licentiousness) and it's still alive and well in the church throughout various denominations appearing in different forms. Hyper-Spiritualism just so happens to be the Continuationist version, Carnal Christianity the Baptist version, gay pastors the Lutheran version, homosexual marriages the Reformed version. Regardless of what mask it wears, it all boils down to the belief that one can hypothetically be lead by the Holy Spirit even though both their behavior and lifestyle proves that they are dominated by the flesh.

Liscentiousness has been around since the time of the apostles. It is not nothing new, why do yu think it is new? Is it dangerous? Yes. I agree with the problem in many churches, but I have yet to hear a baptist church teach this. Your talking to a lifelong baptist. I do not agree with alot from dallas theological. But I wish I had the finds and was young enough to go there!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Unfortunately when most people think of Prophecy, they think of it from an Old Testament perspective however, scripture states that there are "Words of Knowledge", "Words of Wisdom" as well as old fashioned Prophecy.From many discussions that I've had in real time as well as from various discussions on these forums, it appears to me that very few today seem to know the difference between one or the other.

Besides, why anyone would receive any kind of spiritual advice from someone that they do not know on a personal level to bear good fruit or not is beyond me.

Words of wisdom is not prophesy, It is having knowledge and being mature in the body of Christ, Words of knowledge, This would be a pastor or teacher. People tell me all the time I have the gift of knowledge, I would never claim to have the gift of prophesy. Prophesy is telling us something we have not alr4eady heard, or telling us future events. God used it mightily to prove he is god. and to give us NEW revelation about him. So tell me. What new revelation do we need to know? No one who believes in prophets can give us an answer. and you expect us to believe they are real?

 

[Crossfire]

here is what i learned from researching the spiritual gifts in post apostolic times...

in the early second century AD justin martyr wrote in his 'dialogue with trypho the jew' that healing and tongues and prophecy were common in the christian church...

in the late second century irenaeus...a student of john's student polycarp...wrote in his book 'against heresies' that many in the churches spoke in tongues and received prophecy and performed healings...

in the early third century origen wrote in his book 'against celsus' that the tongues were temporary and that they no longer happened...but he also reported that he was a witness to ongoing prophecy and healings...

in the late third century john chrysostom indicated in his 'homily on 1 corinthians 12' that tongues no longer occurred and admitted that the church's understanding of the nature of tongues had been obscured by the passage of time...chrysostom is also the first to use the term 'cessation'

in the early fourth century the church historian eusebius of caesarea...based on the writings i already mentioned and other reports that we no longer have...concluded in his 'ecclesiastical history' that the tongues had continued only through irenaeus' time...

in the mid fourth century epiphanius of salamis wrote in his anti heretical 'medicine chest' that prophecy was welcomed in the church...he argued against the montanists that the church had not rejected the spiritual gifts but only had denounced the montanists' charisma as not being authentic spiritual gifts...

in the late fourth century augustine wrote in his 'homily on 1 john' that the tongues were for the early church and were no longer present in his time...

in the early fifth century augustine wrote in his 'city of God' that miracles still occurred...but that they were not as widely reported as the earlier miracles...and he described several contemporary healings that he was aware of or even witnessed himself... most of the contemporary healings augustine tells about happened through prayer or through the sacraments...especially baptism... augustine also argued in the same work that although the miracles still happened they were no longer spiritually necessary because 'the whole world' had come to believe the gospel...

although the church fathers were fallible and often uncritical and prone to repeating hearsay...most of these post apostolic testimonies seem to reflect the widespread consensus of 'common knowledge' in the church regarding the gifts in their respective time periods...

from all of these ancient testimonies my conclusion is that the tongues continued into the late second century and then ceased... healings continued at least into the fifth century although by that time they were usually the result of prayer or sacrament...healing by direct command as in the new testament appears to have largely ceased by then... prophecy continued at least into the fourth century and it is not clear whether it ever fully ceased...

because of my research i take a position i call 'tentative cessationism'...i regard the ceasing of tongues and the ceasing of healing by direct command as a -historical- fact...though i don't have any -theological- reason for it being so...and consequently i am neutral on the question of whether or not these miraculous gifts could be revived and whether or not the pentecostal or charismatic movements represent such a revival in modern times

Could it be that the gifts of the Spirit began to disappear from the public record as persecution of Christianity in general began to rise forcing the early Church to go underground? Keeping this in mind, it just makes sense that the gifts would seldom be spoken of or mentioned in writing.

By the 4th & 5th centuries various doctrinal variants were introduced into the Church via the pre Eastern Orthodox Church as persecution began to die down thus leading some to believe that the Church had entered into a new age resulting in the creation and adoption of Cessationism and Ammillennialism by the Orthodoc & Catholic Churches, both doctrines could be argued to contradict scripture if one were to interpret scripture at face value. Again, it only makes sense to me that the gifts of the Spirit would begin to dwindle as bad doctrine began to be incorporated into the Church.

In my personal opinion, now that man has both the means of travel and the technology to reach even the most remote places on earth, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are needed now more than ever for the fulfillment of the great commission.

 

[vnhongcute]

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[cfultz3]

[quote-----------edited-----------quote]
lol that is what I said and no one believed me

 

[RickShafer]

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A message in a foreign tongue on a thread about the gifts of the Spirit.