NAR, Cessationism, Darby, Scofield, Dispensationalism, Zionism and related theories

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A

Abiding

Guest
jotted down a few verses since it seemed being a noble berean seemed a wimpy position

Matthew 3:7-9
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,’ We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.”

Matthew 12:34
“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.”

2 Timothy 4:9-10
Make every effort to come to me soon; for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica

2 Timothy 1:15
You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.

1 Timothy 1:18-20
This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered over to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

2 Timothy 2:16-18
But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.

Titus 1:10-11
For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach, for the sake of sordid gain.

2 John 9-11
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Titus 1:7-9
Since an overseer is entrusted with God’s work, he must be blameless-not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Titus 1:13
This testimony is true. For this cause reprove them severely that they may be sound in the faith…

Ephesians 5:11-14
Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible.

Romans 16:17-18
Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

Titus 3:10-11
Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.



Now thats just a few. The Old testament has alot to say on the matter also. Death offence
to several things going mainstream today. But there are some instructions in those verses.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
These warnings included only the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the scribes and any related sect to these and then within the church, those members (by name) as to who was causing trouble and much harm and departed from what they were taught and some even going back into the world. That is agreed and with understanding. Even with that we think evil of no man. Our job today in the body of Christ is not to go around exposing all those we consider to be off in the church and label them unfruitful works of darkness. I know of a few local churches that God raised up that 'Walter Martian' and other 'cult exposers' put the old 'cult' label upon because they taught things about delegated authority and the local church. These ministries were producing much fruit but those 'cult watcher groups' failed to examine the fruit and only what others were griping about. I don't care how much you may try and persuade me, these 'cult watchers' are not of God and never have been, but we want to sanction our own activity in doing this in the church and justify it. If these men and groups can examine others should not their own lives be examined? Are we not taught by the word to examine OURSELVES to see if we be in the faith according to what we have been taught?

If others are teaching contrary to what we have been taught through sound doctrine then as individuals we dismiss it and hold fast to sound doctrine, take up our cross and walk in the light of truth we have been given. The light we walk in will expose and manifest what did not come from the light. We don't have to go around and expose, just preach and walk in the truth and the Holy Spirit will convict men's hearts and if we don't take up our cross and let death work in us we will be unqualified from following Christ and will go off another way and call it being a Christian. Remember this Abiding, the life that Christ lived here on earth was an offence to so many, even His own immediate family that he was raised in. How many times was He accused of going against the law and disobeying the Sabbath. If you lived at that time and only knew Him a s a man, would you have thought Him a little off when He mixed spittle with some dirt making clay on the Sabbath and rubbed it in the man's eyes and told him to go down and wash it off in the pool of Siloam. Read (Jn 9) and tell me what you see. I think the Holy Spirit might have a message in it just for you.
Red im starting to understand your position. I agree with you somewhat. Im actually pretty
liberal especially with petty things. Other things ill hit the firealarm.

Red with me it isnt a matter of not understanding or thinking someones a little off. The spittle wasnt
weird in Jesus day by the way. But i really am not gona play hypotheticals with you. We can discuss
scriptural mandates tho.

Do you eat roadkill? Is it ok for your neighbor then?
 
Jun 24, 2010
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Red im starting to understand your position. I agree with you somewhat. Im actually pretty
liberal especially with petty things. Other things ill hit the firealarm.

Red with me it isnt a matter of not understanding or thinking someones a little off. The spittle wasnt
weird in Jesus day by the way. But i really am not gona play hypotheticals with you. We can discuss
scriptural mandates tho.

Do you eat roadkill? Is it ok for your neighbor then?
My neighbor gave me some last summer and I enjoyed it. Does that answer your question?
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
All this so called research and not one seems to have done the actual math. Unfortunately, many are too blinded by their disdain for "Pentecostalism" to actually research the doctrinal similarities held by Kenyon, Branham & Haggin and the correlation with various modern prosperity teachers as well as the Vineyard movement (Howard - Brown & the Arnotts).
 
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A

Abiding

Guest
All this so called research and not one seems to have done the actual math. Unfortunately, many are too blinded by their disdain for "Pentecostalism" to actually research the doctrinal similarities held by Kenyon, Branham & Haggin and the correlation with various modern prosperity teachers as well as the Vineyard movement (Howard - Brown & the Arnotts).
who hasnt?
what socalled research?
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
All this so called research and not one seems to have done the actual math. Unfortunately, many are too blinded by their disdain for "Pentecostalism" to actually research the doctrinal similarities held by Kenyon, Branham & Haggin and the correlation with various modern prosperity teachers as well as the Vineyard movement (Howard - Brown & the Arnotts).
What's sad is that the opponents of the Word of Faith / Prosperity movements are attempting to use this thread as a means to spotlight these questionable doctrines in such a way to promote their own beliefs rather than to actually point out where these people actually went wrong. I seriously doubt that these people actually know enough about doctrine outside of their own preferred doctrines to actually make an educated argument. Instead, they choose to point out the obvious differences, such as eschatology, which actually have no bearing on the discussion at all.

The conversation at hand goes far deeper doctrinally than just denomination or eschatology. To truly understand the flaws in the Word of Faith & Prosperity movements, you're going to have to familiarize yourself with various doctrines that transcend denomination seeing as the Word of Faith and Prosperity movements are an amalgamation of beliefs from across different denominations.
 
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Abiding

Guest
What's sad is that the opponents of the Word of Faith / Prosperity movements are attempting to use this thread as a means to spotlight these questionable doctrines in such a way to promote their own beliefs rather than to actually point out where these people actually went wrong. I seriously doubt that these people actually know enough about doctrine outside of their own preferred doctrines to actually make an educated argument. Instead, they choose to point out the obvious differences, such as eschatology, which actually have no bearing on the discussion at all.

The conversation at hand goes far deeper doctrinally than just denomination or eschatology. To truly understand the flaws in the Word of Faith & Prosperity movements, you're going to have to familiarize yourself with various doctrines that transcend denomination seeing as the Word of Faith and Prosperity movements are an amalgamation of beliefs from across different denominations.
Your right none if us know anything except you of coarse...in fact until you learn something
it really doesnt exist. Now all of a sudden it does. Maybe now all the past threads pointing out
what you say hasnt been mentioned will all of a sudden appear. this is miracalous. The coolest thing
tho is that you have no interest at all to promote your beliefs. Your getting better with them compound words too. :)
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
In order to truly understand the Word of Faith and Vineyard movements as well as the modern Prosperity & Vineyard movements and the beliefs held by the founders of TBN you need to familiarize yourself with both the history behind and the doctrine of the "Bapti-Costal" movement which is responsible for the "Charismatic Renewal" movements of the 1960's which exploded in the 70s.

The Pentecostal denomination fought this poison tooth and nail and to be honest with you failed in doing so for the most part. However, they were not the only denomination infected. The same poison swept through the Baptist denomination resulting in "Free Grace Theology" and the wide spread acceptance of "carnal christianity" (ie. antinomianism) in the 1960's also.

Both Lutheran and Reformed Churches have been infected by this poison as well, the acceptance of homosexual relationships and openly gay pastors being the result.

The poison is antinomianism, the belief that one can be lead by the Holy Spirit while still dominated by the flesh.

While Dispensationalism & Zionism are flawed doctrines, such eschatological views had little to do with what went down doctrinally in the 20th century.


 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
In order to truly understand the Word of Faith and Vineyard movements as well as the modern Prosperity & Vineyard movements and the beliefs held by the founders of TBN you need to familiarize yourself with both the history behind and the doctrine of the "Bapti-Costal" movement which is responsible for the "Charismatic Renewal" movements of the 1960's which exploded in the 70s.

The Pentecostal denomination fought this poison tooth and nail and to be honest with you failed in doing so for the most part. However, they were not the only denomination infected. The same poison swept through the Baptist denomination resulting in "Free Grace Theology" and the wide spread acceptance of "carnal christianity" (ie. antinomianism) in the 1960's also.

Both Lutheran and Reformed Churches have been infected by this poison as well, the acceptance of homosexual relationships and openly gay pastors being the result.

The poison is antinomianism, the belief that one can be lead by the Holy Spirit while still dominated by the flesh.

While Dispensationalism & Zionism are flawed doctrines, such eschatological views had little to do with what went down doctrinally in the 20th century.



Thats interesting. I was in the so called "baptist? denomination for over 30 years. I have attended and been a member of many such churches all over the nation in my military travels. And I have seen nothing of which you speak of.

and by the way, Grace, by its very name is unearned. Unearned means by its term free. But it was not free. It had a high Cost. The son of God paid for it with his blood.

you throw around the term "free grace" like it is a poison. Why don't you figure out what it means before you start condemning what you do not know!

ps. The baptist denomination you speak of are some of the most legalistic "free grace" Churches I have ever been to. One of the reasons I left it. No one ever grew in Christ, they were to afraid of showing they were still sinners and would be condemned. No fellowship except on sundays, in church, where a bunch of scared hypocrites usually got together and played games.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
This thread became, for the most part, a poor attempt to link Hyper-Spiritualism & the Word of Faith Movement to Dispensationism and Zionism by certain people in order to push their Ammillennial agenda two years ago. Several were banned because of very poor behavior and the unchristian-like manner in which they treated others. Basically these people believed that if you did not believe as they did, you were a pawn of the Antichrist and they treated you as such thus doing more damage to Christian Chat than they ever did good.

What they did not understand is that one could just as easily turn the tables and use their own tactics against them. For example, one could just as easily say that all Cessationists and Ammillennials are heretics because these two beliefs evolved out of the same doctrine that prays to Saints and worships Mary.
 
A

Abiding

Guest

Thats interesting. I was in the so called "baptist? denomination for over 30 years. I have attended and been a member of many such churches all over the nation in my military travels. And I have seen nothing of which you speak of.

and by the way, Grace, by its very name is unearned. Unearned means by its term free. But it was not free. It had a high Cost. The son of God paid for it with his blood.

you throw around the term "free grace" like it is a poison. Why don't you figure out what it means before you start condemning what you do not know!

ps. The baptist denomination you speak of are some of the most legalistic "free grace" Churches I have ever been to. One of the reasons I left it. No one ever grew in Christ, they were to afraid of showing they were still sinners and would be condemned. No fellowship except on sundays, in church, where a bunch of scared hypocrites usually got together and played games.
the freegrace doctrine is at least 300 years old...usually props up against calvinism(Lordship Salvation).
the thought is that there is a choice between making Christ your Lord for rewards
or sacrifice them to live carnally i think is the gist. Ill sure be glad when he gets his sealegs.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
This thread became, for the most part, a poor attempt to link Hyper-Spiritualism & the Word of Faith Movement to Dispensationism and Zionism by certain people in order to push their Ammillennial agenda two years ago. Several were banned because of very poor behavior and the unchristian-like manner in which they treated others. Basically these people believed that if you did not believe as they did, you were a pawn of the Antichrist and they treated you as such thus doing more damage to Christian Chat than they ever did good.

What they did not understand is that one could just as easily turn the tables and use their own tactics against them. For example, one could just as easily say that all Cessationists and Ammillennials are heretics because these two beliefs evolved out of the same doctrine that prays to Saints and worships Mary.
Please stop it with the past....I can sure pull up some threads you may not want to see.
OK? This thread just openned and threads all have a way of diverting where they go with
no intent at all. There are many threads here i dont care for.....looky there i dont partake in them.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest

Thats interesting. I was in the so called "baptist? denomination for over 30 years. I have attended and been a member of many such churches all over the nation in my military travels. And I have seen nothing of which you speak of.

and by the way, Grace, by its very name is unearned. Unearned means by its term free. But it was not free. It had a high Cost. The son of God paid for it with his blood.

you throw around the term "free grace" like it is a poison. Why don't you figure out what it means before you start condemning what you do not know!

ps. The baptist denomination you speak of are some of the most legalistic "free grace" Churches I have ever been to. One of the reasons I left it. No one ever grew in Christ, they were to afraid of showing they were still sinners and would be condemned. No fellowship except on sundays, in church, where a bunch of scared hypocrites usually got together and played games.
EG, I assume that you are aware of the fact that there are dozens of divisions within the Baptist denomination, all of which believe somewhat differently. There are OSAS Baptists, Free Will Baptists, Southern Baptists, Calvinistic Baptists, Full Gospel Baptists just to name a few.

If you study the core doctrine of the Batpist doctrine, almost anyone can call themselves a baptist if they are willing to obey a few simple guidelines. The reason there are so many divisions within the Baptist church is because the Pastor and deacons have the all the authority within a baptist church with little to no outside accountablity thus they can teach whatever they like.

EW Kenyon, Kennith Haggin and William Branham all were Baptists. Their ideals were not accepted in certain Baptist circles so they left and joined the Pentecostal movement which was growing rapidly at the time. Over time the Pentecostals would reject them thus they founded their own independent churches one of which became RHEMA (Word of Faith / Bapti-costal).

Joel Osteen's father was a Baptist and Joel's church was a baptist before becoming what it is today. Many other proponents of the prosperity movement, such as Joyce Myers, was also a baptist before embracing "bapti-costalism".

Vineyard churches have a similar infrastructure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pointing at the Baptists and saying that all blame rest squarely on them. It does not however, embracing Baptist infrastructure (among other baptist ideals) gave the Charismatic agenda a huge boost
 
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Crossfire

Guest
EG, I did not post on thread thread to debate Baptist doctrine but to show how the problems within the W.O.F. & Prosperity movements have nothing to do with eschatology as many of the Amillennials who posted in this thread long ago attempted to promote in order to push their own denominational agenda.

Anyone who was around during that time remembers how fanatical Zone and her posse of conspiracy theorists could be. It was painfully obvious that if you did not believe as they did then in their eyes you were not saved at all and if you stood up to them you were in league with their Zionistic one world order and their Jewish Antichrist.

 
A

Abiding

Guest
EG, I did not post on thread thread to debate Baptist doctrine but to show how the problems within the W.O.F. & Prosperity movements have nothing to do with eschatology as many of the Amillennials who posted in this thread long ago attempted to promote in order to push their own denominational agenda.

Anyone who was around during that time remembers how fanatical Zone and her posse of conspiracy theorists could be. It was painfully obvious that if you did not believe as they did then in their eyes you were not saved at all and if you stood up to them you were in league with their Zionistic one world order and their Jewish Antichrist.

Ok so in other words your here only to smear Zone...right?
Gotcha!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
the freegrace doctrine is at least 300 years old...usually props up against calvinism(Lordship Salvation).
the thought is that there is a choice between making Christ your Lord for rewards
or sacrifice them to live carnally i think is the gist. Ill sure be glad when he gets his sealegs.
If it was not for the fact that it was prevalent in the NT. and People like James and Jude as well as others fought it. I would agree. People want to make things new, when they are in fact old. One must remember, the roman church and the iron arm of the roman army took anything which was not according to their doctrines and ran it underground, where we would not know of it (if it existed as all at that time) it should be obvious that after the empire fell, and thus the power of the church, that these other doctrines would arise with the truth. People seem surprised, when they should not be surprised at all.

It is like the prophesy argument, Why do we need prophets today when the word tells us all things we need to know. and why they can;t give us an answer. The gospel and all of its different means is the same. The Scripture answers it all. We are not fighting anything different today, than Paul fought in his day, the names have changed, but the lies are the same.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
EG, I assume that you are aware of the fact that there are dozens of divisions within the Baptist denomination, all of which believe somewhat differently. There are OSAS Baptists, Free Will Baptists, Southern Baptists, Calvinistic Baptists, Full Gospel Baptists just to name a few.


ya forgot some. Like fundamental baptists. GARBC Baptists etc etc.. Been to them all. Although they may differ on some doctrines and they way they do things. They still are some of the most legalistic people I know. They all have the same issues.

If you study the core doctrine of the Batpist doctrine, almost anyone can call themselves a baptist if they are willing to obey a few simple guidelines. The reason there are so many divisions within the Baptist church is because the Pastor and deacons have the all the authority within a baptist church with little to no outside accountablity thus they can teach whatever they like.

EW Kenyon, Kennith Haggin and William Branham all were Baptists. Their ideals were not accepted in certain Baptist circles so they left and joined the Pentecostal movement which was growing rapidly at the time. Over time the Pentecostals would reject them thus they founded their own independent churches one of which became RHEMA (Word of Faith / Bapti-costal).

Joel Osteen's father was a Baptist and Joel's church was a baptist before becoming what it is today. Many other proponents of the prosperity movement, such as Joyce Myers, was also a baptist before embracing "bapti-costalism".

Vineyard churches have a similar infrastructure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pointing at the Baptists and saying that all blame rest squarely on them. It does not however, embracing Baptist infrastructure (among other baptist ideals) gave the Charismatic agenda a huge boost
Thats not the point. The point is as a baptist, you are legalistic. You want the most judgmental church I have ever been to, go to a baptist church. They teach salvation by grace, but they do not live it. If you sin, you can't have been saved, or you would not sin. They are all like this.

Although you are right about pastors taking their own (usually independent baptist, or fundamental baptist) They still have the same basic foundation. (I left a few because I saw these problems and there was nothing I could do, because the pastors were Gods.)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
EG, I did not post on thread thread to debate Baptist doctrine but to show how the problems within the W.O.F. & Prosperity movements have nothing to do with eschatology as many of the Amillennials who posted in this thread long ago attempted to promote in order to push their own denominational agenda.

Anyone who was around during that time remembers how fanatical Zone and her posse of conspiracy theorists could be. It was painfully obvious that if you did not believe as they did then in their eyes you were not saved at all and if you stood up to them you were in league with their Zionistic one world order and their Jewish Antichrist.


Thats funny, Zone and I had many hard fought battles. We are in extreme disagreement on her ammilenial views, But she has never stated I was not saved, And she knows I still consider her s sister in Christ. We even joke about it some.

She knows we teach the same gospel. And we are in complete agreement on the dangers of the prosperity movement and Pentecostalism. Just because one is extreme in their views does not mean they are always in error. Things like minimalism are not even salvic in nature, we should not hate each other because we disagree.
 
U

unclefester

Guest

Anyone who was around during that time remembers how fanatical Zone and her posse of conspiracy theorists could be. It was painfully obvious that if you did not believe as they did then in their eyes you were not saved at all and if you stood up to them you were in league with their Zionistic one world order and their Jewish Antichrist.
And here's his proof guys and gals. It's weally weally twue.

YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED
 

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