Prophets

[kennethcadwell]

Yeah no doubt...God forbid you actually take the time to go to the original languages to LEARN something new and or IMPROVE your knowledge a bit!

I do go to the original language from time to time, yet it still does not take away from the scripture I gave that says they prophecy for those 3 1/2 years.
Here is Revelation 11:6 that repeats they prophecy again;



Revelation 11:6 N-GFS
GRK: ἡμέρας τῆς προφητείας αὐτῶν καὶ
NAS: during the days of their prophesying; and they have
KJV: the days of their prophecy: and have
INT: days of the prophecy of them and

prophéteia: prophecy​

​

​

Original Word: προφητεία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prophéteia
Phonetic Spelling: (prof-ay-ti'-ah)
Short Definition: prophecy
Definition: prophecy, prophesying; the gift of communicating and enforcing revealed truth.

 

[presidente]

Well, the guys and gals that insist that "the end days" are this present time period have themselves backed into a corner with this one when they take into consideration what Joel said, and then Peter again quoted it in Acts. (Oops! Not much of a way to get out of THAT one.)

The two witnesses prophesying and doing miracles after the completion of the canon don't help their case much either.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Romans 3

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

Even the lie is to the glory of God.

[h=1]Revelation 11:3-12[/h]3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
[h=3]The Witnesses Killed[/h]7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[b] Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[c] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
[h=3]The Witnesses Resurrected[/h]11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.12 And they[d] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

 

[breno785au]

I can see another 40 page debate on the horizon.

 

[presidente]

I am waiting.............?????????????

G4395, prophEteusousin

The standard word for 'prophesy' used elsewhere in the New Testament. You have the Internet. Why not look it up yourself at http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev11.pdf or in the Blueletter Bible.

 

[kennethcadwell]

G4395, prophEteusousin

The standard word for 'prophesy' used elsewhere in the New Testament. You have the Internet. Why not look it up yourself at http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev11.pdf or in the Blueletter Bible.

In post #103 I posted Revelation 11 of the two witnesses of the tribulation.
Twice in verses 3 and 6 the scriptures says they prophecy, and then in verse 10 calls them prophets. Now this can't be if prophets and prophecies ended at John the Baptist.

 

[dcontroversal]

In post #103 I posted Revelation 11 of the two witnesses of the tribulation.
Twice in verses 3 and 6 the scriptures says they prophecy, and then in verse 10 calls them prophets. Now this can't be if prophets and prophecies ended at John the Baptist.

So what did Jesus mean when he said the LAW and the PROPHETS were UNTIL John? Was he MISTAKEN or lacked knowledge or maybe your missing the mark...which is it?

As a matter of fact...everyone who believes in the prophetic office still in force..explain what Jesus meant by his statement about the law and prophets being until JOHN!

 

[SoulWeaver]

It seems that "prophets" is used in the Bible in two meanings. One is the prophecies before Jesus - phrase "the prophets", usualy used within phrase "the law and the prophets" and another for prophets anytime, simply "prophets".
The only reason why in 1 Cor 14 and other places this phrase "THE prophets" is used is because prophecying/prophets have been already mentioned earlier in the context. So the is added because writers are referring to the same thing that is being mentioned again. They also apparently address the church of the day:

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets?
Acts 15:32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
And of course the Revelation of John...

I wont argue that prophets of the New Testament and beyond have the identical calling (or office if you will) as the OT prophets as it offends some believers. God knows. I think the main reason for arguments is fear that by that understanding many nowadays' "prophets" could claim the same authority of the Bible and in case they are false, destroy people. But thank God it does not work that way. God picked out the most important and universally edifying messages to be the authoritative text of the NT. Judas and Silas have been called prophets by the Word of God, but God did not choose to have their words enter the Bible. This was not because they were not prophets but because their messages and predictions have not been as applicable to all times as perfectly as those He chose. A lot of OT prophets are called prophets in the Bible but their words did not enter the Bible, either.

NT uses the same Greek word for prophet which was used for OT prophets, to refer to prophets prophecying at the time of writing of the NT. Imo, it is a strong suggestion of an identical office, but that's just my opinion. God bless

Greek Lexicon :: G4396 (KJV)

 

[Reborn]

May I ask out if curiosity who you think the two witness are?

Well, if we follow Ken's line of reasoning.....?

To him....Days and "time" are literal in Revelation.

Famine ...hold on.......will come in one day.
The world will sit back and witness Babylon fall in one hour.
The world will look at the two witnesses bodies in the streets for 3.5 days.

So in Revelation 11 ....ready?.....the two witnesses are going to be lamp stands and olive trees!
We are allowed to jump around from figurative to literal language!!!.....in the same chapter even!

Prophecy is not to be taught by all, sir.
Don't ask me to explain any of it,...... all I know is that I don't jump around Revelation, putting, cramming, and nailing square blocks in round holes.

 

[kennethcadwell]

So what did Jesus mean when he said the LAW and the PROPHETS were UNTIL John? Was he MISTAKEN or lacked knowledge or maybe your missing the mark...which is it?

As a matter of fact...everyone who believes in the prophetic office still in force..explain what Jesus meant by his statement about the law and prophets being until JOHN!

Our Lord Jesus was making a statement that the OT saints had the law and the prophets messages to go by, and if they did not obey that they would not obey the message that follows starting with John the Baptist. He goes further and says if they did not believe and follow them, they would not follow Him even though He will rise from the grave.
This statement is not saying that prophets and prophetic messages were done away with at this time, because Pentecost came after all of this and Paul still mentioned one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit being prophecy. So once again if prophecy and prophets ended at John the Baptist, then there would be no prophetic gift given by the Holy Spirit that Paul clearly says is one of the gifts. Second the two prophets in Revelation 11, and yes they are prophets because verse 10 says they are.

Now being a prophet does have multiple meanings as it could be giving a prophetic vision, or dream as Acts shows will still take place in the last days. It can also refer to giving prophetic warnings of things that are immediately about to take place as the 2 witnesses clearly are sent to do. Either way the scriptures still show prophets and prophecies will still be given in the last days. We are still in those last days and will be tell the Lord returns, and all evil is removed from the earth and the that which is perfect; A New Heaven and a New Earth with no disease, sadness, hatred, death, and just complete perfect love !!!

 

[DesiredHaven]

Well, if we follow Ken's line of reasoning.....?

To him....Days and "time" are literal in Revelation.

Famine ...hold on.......will come in one day.
The world will sit back and witness Babylon fall in one hour.
The world will look at the two witnesses bodies in the streets for 3.5 days.

So in Revelation 11 ....ready?.....the two witnesses are going to be lamp stands and olive trees!
We are allowed to jump around from figurative to literal language!!!.....in the same chapter even!

Prophecy is not to be taught by all, sir.
Don't ask me to explain any of it,...... all I know is that I don't jump around Revelation, putting, cramming, and nailing square blocks in round holes.

Sort of like two bic lighters (which have the oil) to keep the fire that comes out of their mouth hot

 

[kennethcadwell]

Well, if we follow Ken's line of reasoning.....?

To him....Days and "time" are literal in Revelation.

Famine ...hold on.......will come in one day.
The world will sit back and witness Babylon fall in one hour.
The world will look at the two witnesses bodies in the streets for 3.5 days.

So in Revelation 11 ....ready?.....the two witnesses are going to be lamp stands and olive trees!
We are allowed to jump around from figurative to literal language!!!.....in the same chapter even!

Prophecy is not to be taught by all, sir.
Don't ask me to explain any of it,...... all I know is that I don't jump around Revelation, putting, cramming, and nailing square blocks in round holes.

Well Reborn you never fail with your tact......LOL

The issue still remains that all prophetic scriptures are literal, and the fact that they use symbolism for kingdoms/empires/kings and so on does not change that literal message they give. One has to rightly divided and discern the scriptures by the Holy Spirits guidance leading you. By going by scripture to interpret scripture, and going by history and how the Jews used things like their calendar and came up with the time frame.
There are multiple, and not just me, but 100's of biblical scholars who agree that a prophetic week is one year, so 7 prophetic weeks would be 7 years.
The two witnesses can not be nothing but two actual individuals, and not symbolism for churches or anything else as the chapter 11 shows the man of sin kills them and leaves their dead bodies laying in the streets.

You say you don't know, so why do you criticize those who do have some study into it. I look at multiple sources when it comes to prophecy, even by those who I don't necessarily agree with because their insight on some areas maybe closer to the truth then others including mine.

Example would be:

Did you know that the Chernobyl incident has been called by some to fulfill Wormwood prophecy???

The reason for this is it did poison the waters and killed a lot of people do to the water poisoning, and the fact that Chernobyl in Russian means Wormwood.


I don't agree with that outlook as there are still other things to be fulfilled still before this, but it is a nice try by a few that study prophecy and trying to get worldly events to fit scripture.

 

[TrueFire]

Revelation 11:3-12

3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
The Witnesses Killed

7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[b] Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[c] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
The Witnesses Resurrected

11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.12 And they[d] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Isaiah 43


9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.


Isaiah 51

17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.
18 There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up.
19 These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee?
20 Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.
21 Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine:
22 Thus saith thy Lord the Lord, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again:
23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

 

[DesiredHaven]

I agree that symbolism shouldnt really change the literalness of them, I mean just because a fire could be spiritual doesnt necessarily make it any less literal, just the nature of the fire would be different

And comparitively we can see these would work for the later

Jerm 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, ((behold)) I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

And then here...

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

And slain here (means killed) and is shown again after this manner

Hosea 6:5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

 

[dalconn]

I think this question could easily be answered by any seasoned missionary who has spent an extended period of time in some godless, demon driven society such as africa

 

[kennethcadwell]

I agree that symbolism shouldnt really change the literalness of them, I mean just because a fire could be spiritual doesnt necessarily make it any less literal, just the nature of the fire would be different

And comparitively we can see these would work for the later

Jerm 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, ((behold)) I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

And then here...

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

And slain here (means killed) and is shown again after this manner

Hosea 6:5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

Yes because of symbolism the spiritual aspect should never take away from the literal aspect.
If the Lord our God says in His prophetic messages these things will come to pass, then they will.
Rather we know exactly or not what each symbolic saying in the prophecies stand for, they will be revealed to us by God when He sees the time to reveal it. This does not mean it is wrong to look for these things, as the Lord says when he answered the Apostles about the end times what to look for to know His coming is near.

Just like Daniel 2 and by biblical scholars throughout history we know what the statue stands for.
Then we see in Daniel 2 the legs of iron that stands for the Roman empire go down and mix with clay in the feet with the 10 toes ( Which in other scriptures represent the 10 kings, or 10 horns ). So the 10 toes has to be the Roman empire mixed with another more fragile group....aka Muslim, as there is tons of Muslims in the nations that were part of the Roman empire. Turkey for one the majority of its population is Muslim.

 

[4enlightment]

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Isaiah 22:24 All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.

Matthew 11:17 “‘We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’

Genesis 4:21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes.

Genesis 39:4 Joseph found favor in his eyes and became his attendant. Potiphar put him in charge of his household, and he entrusted to his care everything he owned.

Genesis 41:33 “And now let Pharaoh look for a discerning and wise man and put him in charge of the land of Egypt.

Numbers 1:50 Instead, appoint the Levites to be in charge of the tabernacle of the covenant law—over all its furnishings and everything belonging to it. They are to carry the tabernacle and all its furnishings; they are to take care of it and encamp around it.

2 Samuel 23:23 He was held in greater honor than any of the Thirty, but he was not included among the Three. And David put him in charge of his bodyguard.

Job 4:18 If God places no trust in his servants, if he charges his angels with error,

Revelation 16:5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: “You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were;

1 Corinthians 3:5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

 

[The_highwayman]

This is not true read ephesians 4 SOME ARE APOSLTES SOME PROPHETS ETC. The five fold ministry

Dude he just quoted Rev 19.10 to you and you say its not true?

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Your credibility just got erased.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Yes because of symbolism the spiritual aspect should never take away from the literal aspect.
If the Lord our God says in His prophetic messages these things will come to pass, then they will.
Rather we know exactly or not what each symbolic saying in the prophecies stand for, they will be revealed to us by God when He sees the time to reveal it. This does not mean it is wrong to look for these things, as the Lord says when he answered the Apostles about the end times what to look for to know His coming is near.

Just like Daniel 2 and by biblical scholars throughout history we know what the statue stands for.
Then we see in Daniel 2 the legs of iron that stands for the Roman empire go down and mix with clay in the feet with the 10 toes ( Which in other scriptures represent the 10 kings, or 10 horns ). So the 10 toes has to be the Roman empire mixed with another more fragile group....aka Muslim, as there is tons of Muslims in the nations that were part of the Roman empire. Turkey for one the majority of its population is Muslim.

I certainly dont know all the symbolism I will always be waiting.. waiting... waiting... on a thing while comparing things out. I need alot of convincing, because I am a professed fencesitter on these things (while everyone else seems so sure of their position) I am not and I am rarely convinced of too much by others.

 

[The_highwayman]

If one prophesies, then that makes them a prophet. Does that however, make them a true prophet of God? Only through the testimony of Jesus can we separate the two. In another place in the bible, this is called testing the spirits or the words that precedes from them.

Not so fast, 1 Cor 14.3 says:
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
This refers to general prophecy and anyone can edify, exhort or comfort another in the Body of Christ and not be in the Prophets Office.

A man or woman called to the New Testament Prophets office will not only operate consistently in the vocal gifts [prophesy and tongues and interpretation, message in tongues] but should also operate consistently in 1 or more of the revelation gifts: Which are Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge and discerning of Spirits...

Above all, someone called to the Prophets office will preach and teach the word of God!