SHOULD BELIEVERS PRAY FOR THE SALVATION OF OTHER INDIVIDUALS?
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Still being new to accepting Reformed theology (and much of its terminology is still new to me), I am interested in answers only from non-Reformed persons [not from Reformed persons who want to write what they believe, please]!!
What do you see as wrong with the idea that G-D is sovereign?
(I ask here, because this is part of the ideas regarding salvation.)
What do you see as wrong with the idea that G-D is sovereign?
(I ask here, because this is part of the ideas regarding salvation.)
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If man has free will it can only chose to sin John 8:34-38
“Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever.36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
Notice those that are slaves to sin, Jesus' words have no place in them. If Jesus' words have no place in them, how would they be changed by His words? Also you quote John 12:32 as if it stands alone, it does not it needs to be quoted in context, so we can know what Jesus is saying and not what we want Him to say. Here's 12:27-36c
“Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.28 Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.”30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine.31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.34 So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?”35 So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going.36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”
Verse 33 explains why Jesus said verse 32, it was to show by which death He would die. The crowd answered in verse 34, that they have heard from the Law that the Christ would remain forever with them. Verse 35 Jesus tells them that the light will not be with them forever and for them to walk in the light while He is with them, lest the darkness overtake them. Verse 36 is for them to believe in the light while the light was with them and that they would become sons of light.
The great part is when the Father spoke and some thought it thundered, others that an angel spoke, but either way the ruker of the world was going to be cast out or disarmed as Paul put it in Colossians 2:15
“He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.”
This is all part of the Father's definite plan and foreknowledge of God as in Acts 2:23
“this Jesus,delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.”
God does not throw any type of life preserver into any pond, for anyone to grab. He jumps in the pond and snatchs us out of the pond, because we are died and died men do not grab anything please do not try and cheapen it by saying we are spiritually died, but not physically died, when we are speaking of spiritual matters, not physical. We are spiritually died and the Father made us alive in Christ.
Ephesians 2:5 “even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved”
“Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever.36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
Notice those that are slaves to sin, Jesus' words have no place in them. If Jesus' words have no place in them, how would they be changed by His words? Also you quote John 12:32 as if it stands alone, it does not it needs to be quoted in context, so we can know what Jesus is saying and not what we want Him to say. Here's 12:27-36c
“Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.28 Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.”30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine.31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.34 So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?”35 So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going.36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”
Verse 33 explains why Jesus said verse 32, it was to show by which death He would die. The crowd answered in verse 34, that they have heard from the Law that the Christ would remain forever with them. Verse 35 Jesus tells them that the light will not be with them forever and for them to walk in the light while He is with them, lest the darkness overtake them. Verse 36 is for them to believe in the light while the light was with them and that they would become sons of light.
The great part is when the Father spoke and some thought it thundered, others that an angel spoke, but either way the ruker of the world was going to be cast out or disarmed as Paul put it in Colossians 2:15
“He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.”
This is all part of the Father's definite plan and foreknowledge of God as in Acts 2:23
“this Jesus,delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.”
God does not throw any type of life preserver into any pond, for anyone to grab. He jumps in the pond and snatchs us out of the pond, because we are died and died men do not grab anything please do not try and cheapen it by saying we are spiritually died, but not physically died, when we are speaking of spiritual matters, not physical. We are spiritually died and the Father made us alive in Christ.
Ephesians 2:5 “even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved”
Their are no true Arminians, all those that we think are Arminian, are semipelagianism which place man above the Lord in that man's free will is what iniciates salvation. Becuase the Lord is some type of tyrant if He rescues man from the flames of hell, which is a total distortion of God's word. Because the word of the Lord shows that man in not way can he please God in his flesh, becauce man is an enemy of the Lord and hates the Lord. Romans 8:7-8 "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” Jesus is clearly speaking of man's total spiritual depravity and death. Man can not do anything to become spiritually alive unto the Lord, because we are spiritually died. We cannot please the Lord.
God is Sovereign. No doubt. But His Sovereignty coexists with mankind and their personal volition. And salvation reveals His righteousness/justice.
Salvation and His mercy shows us a side of God that we would never see apart from being fallen and in need of a Savior.
His righteousness and perfect Justice.
He condemned ALL men and put them in unbelief. Perfect Justice/righteousness is going to give all men a way out. Simply believe and you shall be saved.
Rom 11:32
New American Standard Bible
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
John 6:40
New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
Rom 1:17
New International Version
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Psalm 98:9
New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.
Salvation and His mercy shows us a side of God that we would never see apart from being fallen and in need of a Savior.
His righteousness and perfect Justice.
He condemned ALL men and put them in unbelief. Perfect Justice/righteousness is going to give all men a way out. Simply believe and you shall be saved.
Rom 11:32
New American Standard Bible
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
John 6:40
New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
Rom 1:17
New International Version
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Psalm 98:9
New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.
Before the creation of the universe, God had foreseen everything what will happen in every possible world, prayers, evil, goodness, salvation of individuals etc.
And chosen this one universe to create, because this one is the best one.
So our prayers were also taken into consideration, before the world existed.
And chosen this one universe to create, because this one is the best one.
So our prayers were also taken into consideration, before the world existed.
We as Christians should ALWAYS be praying for the lost, we all know people who are lost, whether it be friends, loved ones, enemies and even acquaintances. While it is true the Lord is not a respecter of persons, but when we pray for someone that we know who is lost without Christ, we are STILL praying for someone who is lost, and I believe God honors that. While we should always pray for the lost in this world, it's still commendable for us to pray in our heart for those we know who are lost.
Remember the children of Israel when Moses went up to the mountain with the Lord and God said he would destroy them all because of their drunkenness and their misdeeds, but Moses prayed that the Lord would not destroy them, and it was God's mercy from Moses's prayer that saved them.
Remember the children of Israel when Moses went up to the mountain with the Lord and God said he would destroy them all because of their drunkenness and their misdeeds, but Moses prayed that the Lord would not destroy them, and it was God's mercy from Moses's prayer that saved them.
I don't believe we can pray for God to save someone. If an unbeliever refuses to believe, God is not going to override that choice because of our prayers for their salvation.
We can pray for circumstances,opportunities to come in so that unbeliever can make an informed choice. But God isn't going to force them to believe. And our prayers cannot force them to believe.
We can pray for circumstances,opportunities to come in so that unbeliever can make an informed choice. But God isn't going to force them to believe. And our prayers cannot force them to believe.
Since only God knows who will accept Christ and be saved I think we must pray will all diligence for all men and especially those with whom we have personal contact.
Ask yourself if someone was praying for you to be saved before you came to know Christ. How many can testify of godly moms and dads praying for them and weeping for them to be saved. Have we lost this flavor in our churches? If so we have lost a great treasure.
Paul anguished for his kinsmen Israel to be saved. Romans 9 do you think Paul prayed for them to be saved?
God desires that we should pray. Heb 4:16 shall we seek mercy for ourselves only or for those that we care for as well?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Ask yourself if someone was praying for you to be saved before you came to know Christ. How many can testify of godly moms and dads praying for them and weeping for them to be saved. Have we lost this flavor in our churches? If so we have lost a great treasure.
Paul anguished for his kinsmen Israel to be saved. Romans 9 do you think Paul prayed for them to be saved?
God desires that we should pray. Heb 4:16 shall we seek mercy for ourselves only or for those that we care for as well?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes ... His Sons and Doughters should do it. It's will of the Heavenly Father, He wants all men to be saved
... KJV1Timothy2;1-4 1. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2. For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4. Who will have all men to be saved,and come into the knowledge of truth.
... KJV1Timothy2;1-4 1. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2. For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4. Who will have all men to be saved,and come into the knowledge of truth.
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Gods will is that none should perish. Yet some do. So God does not coerce people to believe and be saved. And our prayers are not going to coerce God into saving someone that refuses to believe.
No matter how much we pray for someones salvation, If they refuse to believe. They will not be saved.
What Christian does not want the whole world to be saved? And I would contend that many of us have prayed, diligently, for this. Is it going to happen?
No matter how much we pray for someones salvation, If they refuse to believe. They will not be saved.
What Christian does not want the whole world to be saved? And I would contend that many of us have prayed, diligently, for this. Is it going to happen?
Well then it is still up to us to see the red life preserver and then swim to it, that would require work on our part, therefore I think the analogy falls flat. No body has denied we have choice in life, like I make decisions all day every day. We are free to behave however we choose to, but the choices I make now are completely different from the ones I made before He saved me. I believe He saved me, I believe that we as "fallen man" is incapable of seeking after God, I believe that it is through no effort of my own, like looking for, seeing, swimming to, then gabbing, in my personal experience that was not how it happen to me, and I honestly believe the Bible tells us it is through NO work of ours least any man should boast.
That said I want you to understand that I have seen it the same way you are describing. I'd think "How can it work without free will?", I just couldn't make sense of that, but that's not what I read about in the Bible, this is all about His g
lory and kingdom, not just my personal salvation. I see my salvation as the most precious thing possible in this life, He chose me, He chooses us not in an arrogant way but more in a "He is the big BOSS of EVERYTHING, and He did it for a reason, and He HAS victory, and the whole world WILL be put under Jesus feet" type way. I do know what you mean though and I understand, but if that was true, in my mind anyway, then that has to mean I could always choose to walk away from Him, and that is clearly taught against in the bible. The only way to reconcile this in my head, or at least much more satisfying to me is if God is sovereign over ALL things, and I believe He is with every bit of faith He has blessed me with. #ALLGOD
That said I want you to understand that I have seen it the same way you are describing. I'd think "How can it work without free will?", I just couldn't make sense of that, but that's not what I read about in the Bible, this is all about His g
lory and kingdom, not just my personal salvation. I see my salvation as the most precious thing possible in this life, He chose me, He chooses us not in an arrogant way but more in a "He is the big BOSS of EVERYTHING, and He did it for a reason, and He HAS victory, and the whole world WILL be put under Jesus feet" type way. I do know what you mean though and I understand, but if that was true, in my mind anyway, then that has to mean I could always choose to walk away from Him, and that is clearly taught against in the bible. The only way to reconcile this in my head, or at least much more satisfying to me is if God is sovereign over ALL things, and I believe He is with every bit of faith He has blessed me with. #ALLGOD
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can you provide scripture that backs up your opinion or are you just expressing your opinion? I would think you need to supply scripture if you are saying your opinion came from that source. in fact, I would expect it'
I find the use of the word 'forced' in your response to be curious
why would you think our prayers 'force' anything? do you think you 'force' God to answer?
further, are you praying to God or praying AT people?
I do not find your answer logical
ummm...what are you calling an informed choice? I was saved when I was 5. How informed was I?
seems I am far more informed now. should I get re-saved?
you would need to provide scripture to indicate your reasons for saying what you do
otherwise, we should not take counsel from you as your opinion is not, IMO, biblically sound
I find the use of the word 'forced' in your response to be curious
why would you think our prayers 'force' anything? do you think you 'force' God to answer?
further, are you praying to God or praying AT people?
I do not find your answer logical
ummm...what are you calling an informed choice? I was saved when I was 5. How informed was I?
seems I am far more informed now. should I get re-saved?
you would need to provide scripture to indicate your reasons for saying what you do
otherwise, we should not take counsel from you as your opinion is not, IMO, biblically sound