SHOULD BELIEVERS PRAY FOR THE SALVATION OF OTHER INDIVIDUALS?

[7seasrekeyed]

Why would an anti-cal even bother praying to God to save ANYONE? It is up to the person! "God has given up his Sovereignty to people!" LOL!!!!!!!! So why are you praying then?????????????????????

"Dear God please save so and so. I mean, please make them decide. Wait. No. You don't do that. Please save them. Wait. Please let them save themselves without any of your involvement so as to not infringe upon their free will. I mean, well, I'm worried, it's all in their hands to do it, and I know you can't do anything about it, so I am worried just like you are God. There is nothing we can do. Why am I even praying?"

What hypocrisy, ignorance and absurdity. God can't save them, they have to choose on their own to be saved. What are they praying for actually, God to coerce them to choose him??????? LOL!!!!!!!!!!

anti-Cal is best understood by this type of post from a Cal

anyone else notice the condescending, inappropriate, rude, arrogant nature of this LOL post?

people are not offended that God is God

people are actually offended that a Calvinist is this nasty

then again, considering blogs I have read, even a few by ex-Cals, this can often be the case

if this is their view from their perch of the chosen and predestined, I would expect most people to react in a negative way

on the other hand, most Cals on this site seem to be in control of their emotions and how they post

maybe we won't judge all Calvinists by one or two bad eggs

the understanding of what those who are not Calvinist believe or think is also skewed and distorted, but I expect that is done on purpose in keeping with the nature of the rest of the post

I get the idea this Cal may believe that if you do not believe just like he does, you are not saved

 

[tourist]

Gods will is that none should perish. Yet some do. So God does not coerce people to believe and be saved. And our prayers are not going to coerce God into saving someone that refuses to believe.

No matter how much we pray for someones salvation, If they refuse to believe. They will not be saved.

What Christian does not want the whole world to be saved? And I would contend that many of us have prayed, diligently, for this. Is it going to happen?

It is God's will and desire that none should perish but all have everlasting life. God hears and answers all prayer that is aligned with His will and desire. If you pray for the salvation of someone, even if that person is dead, God would have heard that prayer before He even created the universe and He will certainly answer it. There is not a single reference in the bible of a specific actual individual that is actually in hell at this time. it does imply however that many will miss the mark, die in their sins and suffer eternal separation from God. Praying for the salvation of others will ensure that they too will spend eternity in the presence of God's love and not necessarily be damned for an endless span of time.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

. . . And when I sent you that rep, I wasn't trying to hide anything -- I accidentally hit the button. I'm a mess, obviously. I'd better try to sleep.

well that's fine

a Calvinist would tell you that it was not an accident.

 

[notuptome]

anti-Cal is best understood by this type of post from a Cal

anyone else notice the condescending, inappropriate, rude, arrogant nature of this LOL post?

people are not offended that God is God

people are actually offended that a Calvinist is this nasty

then again, considering blogs I have read, even a few by ex-Cals, this can often be the case

if this is their view from their perch of the chosen and predestined, I would expect most people to react in a negative way

on the other hand, most Cals on this site seem to be in control of their emotions and how they post

maybe we won't judge all Calvinists by one or two bad eggs

the understanding of what those who are not Calvinist believe or think is also skewed and distorted, but I expect that is done on purpose in keeping with the nature of the rest of the post

I get the idea this Cal may believe that if you do not believe just like he does, you are not saved

There has never been a shortage of nastiness here on CC. Hopefully it's just immaturity and sanctification will remedy the issue.

Look for fruit. Romans 12 and Galatians 5:22-26.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

very interesting comments . I for one do not call myself reformed lol. I too think those titles are terms used by those elitists who are already Saved. I too think those who have come out of very bad cult teachings have issues with true freedom. They seem to gravitate to other types of dogmatic practices and legalist approaches to salvation.

Prayer is Communication more importantly it is dialog with God. it is also what we were told to do by Jesus . and prayer does make a differences. when we pray the will of God that is a good thing .

should pray for one to be saved ? IS that not the WILL of GOD? that all would be saved? And does the servant obey only when the outcome is to their liking? no. You obey. Prayer has been a of very major part revival as we see in the book of Acts . to speculate if our prayers played a part or not I think does not bring glory to God. Should we not be rejoicing when the prayer is answered and weeping when they are not ? But accept the answer none the less?

scriptures that say to pray:
gen 20:7
1 sam 7:5
1kings 13:6
Matt 5:4
col 1:9
1Ti 2:1

yes we are to pray . Yes pray does work.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

There has never been a shortage of nastiness here on CC. Hopefully it's just immaturity and sanctification will remedy the issue.

Look for fruit. Romans 12 and Galatians 5:22-26.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

that is true and prob each one of us has had a moment here

but Calvin dude is in a class by hisself

entered like a stormtrooper and has been stomping on anyone who does not totally agree with him ever since

I have him on ignore, but saw the post as a quote someone else answered

he must eat lemons for breakfast

 

[notuptome]

Jesus left His glory in heaven for the cross of Calvary even though He knew He would be rejected by those He came to save.

In all things give God thanks.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

that is true and prob each one of us has had a moment here

but Calvin dude is in a class by hisself

entered like a stormtrooper and has been stomping on anyone who does not totally agree with him ever since

I have him on ignore, but saw the post as a quote someone else answered

he must eat lemons for breakfast

He needs prayer. He may not believe it will change anything but he still needs someone who does believe to pray for him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shrume]

It is God's will and desire that none should perish but all have everlasting life. God hears and answers all prayer that is aligned with His will and desire. If you pray for the salvation of someone, even if that person is dead, God would have heard that prayer before He even created the universe and He will certainly answer it. There is not a single reference in the bible of a specific actual individual that is actually in hell at this time. it does imply however that many will miss the mark, die in their sins and suffer eternal separation from God. Praying for the salvation of others will ensure that they too will spend eternity in the presence of God's love and not necessarily be damned for an endless span of time.

No it doesn't. We can pray until we're blue in the face that God would save someone, but if that person rejects the gospel, and refuses to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, he will not be saved.

 

[tourist]

No it doesn't. We can pray until we're blue in the face that God would save someone, but if that person rejects the gospel, and refuses to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, he will not be saved.

What you have said is absolutely correct but if you pray for the salvation of one's soul than that person would not reject the salvation by the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for the sins committed by that person. It says in the bible that it is God's will and desire that none should perish but that all have everlasting life. If praying for the salvation of an individual is not aligned with God's will and desire than I really don't know any prayer that is. We are all going to pray until we are blue in the face for prayers that will never be answered by God for one reason or another. Fortunately, the Holy Spirit never ceases to pray to the Heavenly Father for us. Maybe the Holy Spirit cares for the salvation of others as well. Only time will tell.

 

[shrume]

What you have said is absolutely correct but if you pray for the salvation of one's soul than that person would not reject the salvation by the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for the sins committed by that person.

There is nothing in the Bible that says that praying for someone makes them accept salvation by the shed blood of Jesus.

It says in the bible that it is God's will and desire that none should perish but that all have everlasting life.

That's right. (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9).

If praying for the salvation of an individual is not aligned with God's will and desire than I really don't know any prayer that is. We are all going to pray until we are blue in the face for prayers that will never be answered by God for one reason or another. Fortunately, the Holy Spirit never ceases to pray to the Heavenly Father for us. Maybe the Holy Spirit cares for the salvation of others as well. Only time will tell.

You are not taking into account a person's free will. Praying for someone does not override that person's free will. Praying for someone does not force them to be saved. Salvation is an individual thing *. Each person must hear and believe the gospel, and when he does, he is sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Rom 10:9-10).

( * The only exception I am aware of is in the case of children. Children are sanctified by their believing parents (1 Cor 7:14) )

 

[CS1]

What you have said is absolutely correct but if you pray for the salvation of one's soul than that person would not reject the salvation by the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for the sins committed by that person. It says in the bible that it is God's will and desire that none should perish but that all have everlasting life. If praying for the salvation of an individual is not aligned with God's will and desire than I really don't know any prayer that is. We are all going to pray until we are blue in the face for prayers that will never be answered by God for one reason or another. Fortunately, the Holy Spirit never ceases to pray to the Heavenly Father for us. Maybe the Holy Spirit cares for the salvation of others as well. Only time will tell.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Paul prayed for salvation I'm sure he did not think it was wrong to pray for others and nor do I think the Holy Spirit would have us do something with out effect. James 5:13-16 say to pray . I have never prayed until I was blue in the face, but humbling experience it is to ask God for help . many should do that.

 

[shrume]

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Paul prayed for salvation I'm sure he did not think it was wrong to pray for others and nor do I think the Holy Spirit would have us do something with out effect. James 5:13-16 say to pray . I have never prayed until I was blue in the face, but humbling experience it is to ask God for help . many should do that.

That's right. We certainly can and should pray for others.

But that is no guarantee that they will choose to believe.

 

[CS1]

That's right. We certainly can and should pray for others.

But that is no guarantee that they will choose to believe.

it is misguided to think it would not. Rome chapter 10 does not tell us to preach only if people get saved. Paul said HE was not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ for it is the POWER OF GOD. Proclaiming as commanded to do by Jesus for salvation . OK Jesus I will do it but you know there is no guarantee it will work. with an attitude like that . Stay home .


I would not advise anyone to visited a dead cold church of people with a sorry outlook like that. they should have a billboard out in front saying " there is no guarantee for you , but there is one for me".

 

[Magenta]

LOL just wow. I agree with everything you just said, and I think the points you made are right on, but man that was a bit strong. I am really starting to see the problem with all these labels and divisions. They cause so much trouble and just plain division from before any dialog even starts, I think it actually prevents us from sharing at times. I honestly believe exactly what you just described and feel you're right on, but guess who open my eyes to it? That's right God did it, exactly what you were just saying. So I also agree we should proclaim truth to EVERYONE, but we are to proclaim it in love. I didn't always see everything as I see it now, in fact I understand the thinking that demands we have freewill to choose God or not, but as God has walked with me and shown me more, I see in His word a MUCH bigger picture. It's not all about "my" own personal salvation, we love to make it ALL about us, but it's His glory He has brought salvation into the work to redeem a people incapable of redeeming themselves. It's about Him saving a people that hate Him and are incapable of saving themselves, while to me He is the greatest treasure, and please don't think I'm trying to take any attention or focus off the fact and the miracle of Him saving us, but it wasn't about "me", it's ALL about Him and His glory. He is everything.

I just think we should try harder to be "one body" and "of one mind", spend less effort trying to "teach" each other like this. One HUGE thing we lose by communicating through text only is any kind of intimate connection, so we are just trying to teach each other into what God has shown us "on paper". Trust me I see how big some of the differences are and agree we should talk about them, and listen to others as well. I go to an AG Pentecostal church and don't share the view of tongues they have, nor am I a pre-tribber, but I love the people there, believe I am where God wants me (and under the pastor He's placed over me), and most of all and most importantly I trust God to work through the power of His word in truth.

I just know I have been saved for 4 years now and I do not see it the same way I did in the beginning, and God is at the center of why my view has ever changed, so I don't have the burden of changing anyone on my shoulders, I just share the truth in love, trust God doesn't lie, and that He will be true to His word. I guess I'm just kind of thinking out loud with you guys, but I am really just wanting us Christians to show the world something better than what they already have, and think our approach to each other should be better, never compromising truth at all, just less combative with each other. Sometimes we treat the unbeliever better than each other, not that we shouldn't treat them as Christ like as He commands, but when we treat out brothers and sisters worse that's kind of telling in my opinion, no matter the disagreement. I also want to put out there that I am very guilty of the same exact thing and I want to be better at this too. Again just sharing what's on my heart. I pray that you all have a great day, and God draws everyone closer to Him in truth.

Hello Jim, it is always such a pleasure to see you posting. I hope you and your wife and family are all well I do have a question I would like to ask you, you specifically as opposed to some others here, because I wonder where this idea comes from that says we believe we save ourselves to repent and believe the good news? That seems an egregious presentation of the gospel, and I have never seen anyone but Calvinists present this view in their mocking and scoffing, which I know you were not doing. Is there no concept of co-operation with the Holy Spirit of God in the Calvinist/reformed view? Does one not at some point finally lay down their opposition to and rebellion against God? Yes and amen, God makes it possible, but He does not do it for us. I wonder why this gets maligned so often, deliberately more often than not, it seems. I would appreciate any insight you could share to help me understand. Thank you!

 

[shrume]

it is misguided to think it would not.

It is misguided to believe that praying for someone will automatically cause them to become saved. The Bible never states such.

Rome chapter 10 does not tell us to preach only if people get saved.

That's right. We are to preach so people can hear the gospel and have the opportunity to believe it and become saved.

Paul said HE was not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ for it is the POWER OF GOD.

Yes. When a person hears the gospel and decides to believe it, that person becomes saved.

Proclaiming as commanded to do by Jesus for salvation . OK Jesus I will do it but you know there is no guarantee it will work. with an attitude like that . Stay home .

I would not advise anyone to visited a dead cold church of people with a sorry outlook like that. they should have a billboard out in front saying " there is no guarantee for you , but there is one for me".

You have constructed a straw man. We are to preach the gospel so people can hear it and have the opportunity to believe it and become saved. When people hear and believe, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).

 

[Snoozy]

one of the biggest tricks the devil ever pulls on people is procrastination.

i'll do it later. i'll get saved one of these days. this is why the bible states TODAY is the day of salvation. nobody knows how much time they got left on this earth. some folks are thinking i wont go to that altar call everyone will see me, i'll embarass myself what will people think, thats the devil telling u that. meanwhile God is telling u come and get saved get ur sins forgiven. get right!

there are 500 guests on the bible discussion forum i think there should be a gospel thread always on top. CS1 im sure u can arrange that. have the Gospel show up as the top thread undearneath the new users read this post.

this way we keep the devil from deceiving the unbelievers with a false gospel. we put the right gospel on the front page so they wont get confused by the sabbath threads mixing it with salvation.

sounds like a good idea to me. i hope u think about it.

 

[CS1]

It is misguided to believe that praying for someone will automatically cause them to become saved. The Bible never states such.


That's right. We are to preach so people can hear the gospel and have the opportunity to believe it and become saved.


Yes. When a person hears the gospel and decides to believe it, that person becomes saved.


You have constructed a straw man. We are to preach the gospel so people can hear it and have the opportunity to believe it and become saved. When people hear and believe, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).

asking God to do something HE desires to do and trusting HIM to do it, is not misguided. I do not know anyone who would think it would automatically cause them to become saved.

no straw man Just not taking a negative approach to the Power of Salvation when the Gospel is preached.

 

[Jimbone]

Hello Jim, it is always such a pleasure to see you posting. I hope you and your wife and family are all well I do have a question I would like to ask you, you specifically as opposed to some others here, because I wonder where this idea comes from that says we believe we save ourselves to repent and believe the good news? That seems an egregious presentation of the gospel, and I have never seen anyone but Calvinists present this view in their mocking and scoffing, which I know you were not doing. Is there no concept of co-operation with the Holy Spirit of God in the Calvinist/reformed view? Does one not at some point finally lay down their opposition to and rebellion against God? Yes and amen, God makes it possible, but He does not do it for us. I wonder why this gets maligned so often, deliberately more often than not, it seems. I would appreciate any insight you could share to help me understand. Thank you!

I understand what you're saying and to be honest I have only in the past few months (4 or 5) seen it from this "new" (to me, but not to history) perspective, and I have to be honest it has set me on fire for the Lord like never before. I see scripture totally different (because of Him, not because any "men"), I read scripture totally different. I "hear" scripture differently now. It wasn't a "set of beliefs" I heard, or certain teacher that "convinced me", although it was certain topics, verses, sermons, thoughts, that seem to all come together at the same time, even certain songs on the radio, I'm not sure exactly how or what but something new clicked.

It is really all stuff we agree on for the most part, but I just saw it in light of a focus on His kingdom more than our personal salvation, It's all about Him and His glory, and it's EVERYWHERE. Jesus talked about His kingdom, a kingdom where men are given a heart of flesh in place of the stone, a kingdom that would know no end, that the gates of hell would not prevail against, a kingdom that was compared to leaven, as well as a mustard seed, a kingdom Jesus did bring, a kingdom whose inhabitants would be as numerous as the stars. A kingdom I now truly believe in, one we are called to be part of. I really don't like the labels at all anymore, because I truly believe than no "church gang" can be right on 100% of everything they are grouped into believing, I also think they cause division before any dialog even starts. I understand the point, and the reason for them, but do not like the divides they cause.

I know there are a lot of hard question, and difficult things to deal with when you hear things like "predestination" and "called", but I also think the bible teaches we are DEAD in our sins, as in unable to seek God, I think the only way we can truly say "it was all God and nothing I did, lest any man boast" is if it "really was" all God and He did it for a very specific reason, for His truth to go out until every knee bows, and every tongue confess to the King of kings, and the Lord of lords. I believe that Jesus is the BOSS of me, and that His kingdom will fill the world, He wins and He made me desire Him, and want to help in the building of His kingdom at any cost.

In a nutshell that's what has been on my heart, and God has also blessed me to see the power of His truth work on the hearts of a couple men now, and He has given me better understanding and even deeper desire to "go and make disciples of ALL nations". What's crazy to me is that everything I see now has always been right there for anyone see, for anyone to read, but the power of truth is incredible and I praise His name for it. I believe He saved me, I believe He will not lose one the Father has given Him, I believe He owns the world, and everything will be brought under His name, and that He tells the end from the beginning, and He is sovereign over everything, and I owe everything to Him alone. Again I don't like the idea of labeling anyone certain things and trying to heap my understanding at them and act as if I know everything they believe God to be. To be honest I don't even like having conversations about God unless we are face to face and can look each other in the eyes and actually talk, not type arguments at each other about the same things everyday. That's just how I'm seeing it now, even though I'm guilty of doing everything I just listed myself, and want to stop doing so as much as possible.

Sorry I shared how I look at it without ever addressing your question. I don't honestly think that "everyone" believes any certain way, and I understand what you're asking, and honestly know what you're saying here. Both views agree on everything but the perspective, and instead of talking about it like we are here, we can get arrogant and "mock and scoff", I have honestly had enough of that and want to just speak the truth He's given me in love. I don't believe the same things I did 4 years ago, and I trust Him that He will mold me and I will understand things differently in 4 more years, I just want to proclaim His name, I don't care what you call me. I've been called worse I can assure you.

Anyway I love you sister and hopes that gives you more perspective on where my heads at and what I mean in my comment.

 

[tourist]

( * The only exception I am aware of is in the case of children. Children are sanctified by their believing parents (1 Cor 7:14) )

Perhaps those born with a mental handicap as well would be an exception. Oh, the thief on the cross hanging to the right of Jesus might be another. Jesus said something about this day he would be with Him in paradise. Of course Jesus had not yet died for his sins at that moment but I guess that was just a technicality.