SHOULD BELIEVERS PRAY FOR THE SALVATION OF OTHER INDIVIDUALS?

[peacefulbeliever]

I have given them your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that you should take them out of the world, but that you should keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through your truth: your word is truth. As you have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. That they may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me. John 17

Jesus prayed for us - why wouldn't we pray for others?

 

[Mercy4u]

[QUOTE=preacher4truth;

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Mercy4u;3372520That we can pray for the salvation of an individual. Have God override their unbelief. And they can be saved by grace through prayer even though they have no faith?

I cannot give you that verse.

right. so where do you get the impression we should not pray for those who are not (yet) saved?

But like Paul, who understood that God will not coerce anyone and their freewill choice. He prayed for the salvation of Israel by means of presenting the Gospel and giving Israel the choice/ opportunity to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

well which is it? Paul presented the gospel or Paul prayed? they are not the same thing

you are backpeddling here which, in this instance, may be a good thing

I have said several times now, that our prayers will not force God to do a thing and you have stated that you would not pray for the salvation of unbelievers because God will not force them to be save and similar

from your post 34

I don't believe we can pray for God to save someone. If an unbeliever refuses to believe, God is not going to override that choice because of our prayers for their salvation.

We can pray for circumstances,opportunities to come in so that unbeliever can make an informed choice. But God isn't going to force them to believe. And our prayers cannot force them to believe.

YOU do not know who might be saved and equally you do not know how many have come to salvation because of prayer

so why would you not pray when the scriptures are filled with prayers of all kinds?

Paul anguished over those of his own race and prayed for them that they might believe

I think it is fair to state you have no scripture to back up your conclusions regarding praying for the unsaved

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I asked:
"Still being new to accepting Reformed theology (and much of its terminology is still new to me), I am interested in answers only from non-Reformed persons [not from Reformed persons who want to write what they believe, please]!!


What do you see as wrong with the idea that G-D is sovereign?"
​

First, note, please that I merely wrote,

"I am interested in answers only from non-Reformed persons." Sorry to not be as amusing as those who divide people into merely "Calvinist or Arminian."

You asked back, "where do you get the idea that non-Calvinists believe God is NOT sovereign?" CC is not the whole of either my life-experience or my Internet experience. I have read answers from non-reformed persons saying G-D is not sovereign. Further, over a few decades, I have heard people say that He is not sovereign: while they did not use the word, sovereign, they used word-patterns meaning that He is not sovereign.​

so you didn't want to explain?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Yeah I guess Jesus praying in all of John 17 is an after thought.

I have never my entire life heard anyone say they do not think we should pray for the salvation of others

until

now.......

 

[oldethennew]

each and every day, our hearts should reach out for all, whether we think
that they are saved or not,,,this is what God's Mercy means... asking our Father
to have mercy upon all of man-kind...

 

[pottersclay]

Well if I saw someone drowning and had no means to reach and help them. You bet I'd call somebody. Go get somebody.

 

[nddreamer]

"Is. 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 12 -----and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
If our Lord Jesus died for all, the least we can do is pray for all. Do our prayers affect the salvation of others? Our Lord says yes.
"Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."
"John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."
"Matt. 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; 38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest."
"Matt. 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 14 --- it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."
"1 Tim. 2:1 EXHORT therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all."
If he gave himself for all, shouldn't we pray for all? He doesn't care if we're reformed, non--reformed or uninformed like me. He gave himself for all and made intercession for all and he told us to follow him.
"John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour."
This is heavy duty. That some debate this is like telling God, no, because they know more than he does. WOW! That's Amazing!

 

[Beez]

so you didn't want to explain?

I had asked a question regarding the non-Reformed thoughts on the sovereignty of G-D. You answered my question with this question: "no offense, but where do you get the idea that non-Calvinists believe God is NOT sovereign?"

I answered: "CC is not the whole of either my life-experience or my Internet experience. I have read answers from non-reformed persons saying G-D is not sovereign. Further, over a few decades, I have heard people say that He is not sovereign: while they did not use the word, sovereign, they used word-patterns meaning that He is not sovereign."​

​

Did I miss something?
Surely, you don't want me to name persons in my experience that you don't know?
I am very confused this recent response.

 

[notuptome]

Roger. You have been very knowledgeable and reasonable from what I have seen and read.

Keep in mind the thread that we are on.

So, we can pray to God to save an individual. And He will override their unbelief and save them because we prayed for them?

Paul should have said, " believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, unless you have been prayed into salvation?"

In the end he really does elect and predestine people to be saved?

He bases His decision on His sovereignty and who was prayed for to be saved?

I don't think so. He bases His salvation on who FREELY BELIEVES. So, our prayers to help the lost come to a saving faith in Christ is heard. Praying to God to save someone hits only the ceiling. They need to freely believe in order for God to save them.

Help their unbelief.

I have been to funerals where the loved one who died was unsaved. I have seen those who have prayed for their loved one to come to Christ for years weep and give God thanks for the mercy given them to pray for that person.

Only Christ can save them. Only Christ can comfort those left behind in their grief. I do not think in error to beg God to extend one last offer to call one more time to the lost soul to turn and receive Christ.

I think Gods heart is touched when I come to Him about the salvation of the soul of another sinner such as I was at one time.

What if at the judgment seat of Christ you are asked about your prayer labors for the lost?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mercy4u]

I have been to funerals where the loved one who died was unsaved. I have seen those who have prayed for their loved one to come to Christ for years weep and give God thanks for the mercy given them to pray for that person.

Only Christ can save them. Only Christ can comfort those left behind in their grief. I do not think in error to beg God to extend one last offer to call one more time to the lost soul to turn and receive Christ.

I think Gods heart is touched when I come to Him about the salvation of the soul of another sinner such as I was at one time.

What if at the judgment seat of Christ you are asked about your prayer labors for the lost?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Totally and completely agreed.

I am quite amazed that my point can't be seen.

Thanks Roger.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I had asked a question regarding the non-Reformed thoughts on the sovereignty of G-D. You answered my question with this question: "no offense, but where do you get the idea that non-Calvinists believe God is NOT sovereign?"

I answered: "CC is not the whole of either my life-experience or my Internet experience. I have read answers from non-reformed persons saying G-D is not sovereign. Further, over a few decades, I have heard people say that He is not sovereign: while they did not use the word, sovereign, they used word-patterns meaning that He is not sovereign."​

​

Did I miss something?
Surely, you don't want me to name persons in my experience that you don't know?
I am very confused this recent response.

great. well let's look at your question, my response and then your answer

1.

Originally Posted by Beez

Still being new to accepting Reformed theology (and much of its terminology is still new to me), I am interested in answers only from non-Reformed persons [not from Reformed persons who want to write what they believe, please]!!

What do you see as wrong with the idea that G-D is sovereign?

(I ask here, because this is part of the ideas regarding salvation.)

I responded with:

2.

no offense, but where do you get the idea that non-Calvinists believe God is NOT sovereign?

I am neither Calvinist or Arminian (and actually kind of amused/amazed that it seems we are supposed to pick one, wear a badge and defend our position)

and then you got back to me with:

3.

Originally Posted by Beez

I asked:
"Still being new to accepting Reformed theology (and much of its terminology is still new to me), I am interested in answers only from non-Reformed persons [not from Reformed persons who want to write what they believe, please]!!


What do you see as wrong with the idea that G-D is sovereign?"



First, note, please that I merely wrote,"I am interested in answers only from non-Reformed persons." Sorry to not be as amusing as those who divide people into merely "Calvinist or Arminian."



You asked back, "where do you get the idea that non-Calvinists believe God is NOT sovereign?" CC is not the whole of either my life-experience or my Internet experience. I have read answers from non-reformed persons saying G-D is not sovereign. Further, over a few decades, I have heard people say that He is not sovereign: while they did not use the word, sovereign, they used word-patterns meaning that He is not sovereign.

with respect to the dark sentences above, why would you respond in a way that suggests I am trying to get on your bad side?

I have no idea why you would say 'sorry to not be as amusing....etc' I have never posted to you before, I am straightforward so no hidden agenda in my response

you seem to have your bristles up

that's fine, but at least get to know someone before you decide they are somehow trying to 'mess' with you

that, is why I said what I did. I was pretty taken aback by your response

I doubt that this forum is the entire world of anyone here. really

 

[MarcR]

mercy4u where does it say that God wont "force"?
i just posted a verse saying to pray for all men (in context it lists kinds of people like kings etc but still). and u say nah we cant pray for that. God says to pray for it

what about what happened to Paul? was that forced?

daniel 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”

i cant find any verse saying that God cant coerce people. if u can find it i will believe it.

The concept of non-coercion is inherent in the concept of freewill. One must either accept both or deny both.

 

[Mercy4u]

The concept of non-coercion is inherent in the concept of freewill. One must either accept both or deny both.

Bingo.

 

[Jimbone]

Why would an anti-cal even bother praying to God to save ANYONE? It is up to the person! "God has given up his Sovereignty to people!" LOL!!!!!!!! So why are you praying then?????????????????????

"Dear God please save so and so. I mean, please make them decide. Wait. No. You don't do that. Please save them. Wait. Please let them save themselves without any of your involvement so as to not infringe upon their free will. I mean, well, I'm worried, it's all in their hands to do it, and I know you can't do anything about it, so I am worried just like you are God. There is nothing we can do. Why am I even praying?"

What hypocrisy, ignorance and absurdity. God can't save them, they have to choose on their own to be saved. What are they praying for actually, God to coerce them to choose him??????? LOL!!!!!!!!!!

LOL just wow. I agree with everything you just said, and I think the points you made are right on, but man that was a bit strong. I am really starting to see the problem with all these labels and divisions. They cause so much trouble and just plain division from before any dialog even starts, I think it actually prevents us from sharing at times. I honestly believe exactly what you just described and feel you're right on, but guess who open my eyes to it? That's right God did it, exactly what you were just saying. So I also agree we should proclaim truth to EVERYONE, but we are to proclaim it in love. I didn't always see everything as I see it now, in fact I understand the thinking that demands we have freewill to choose God or not, but as God has walked with me and shown me more, I see in His word a MUCH bigger picture. It's not all about "my" own personal salvation, we love to make it ALL about us, but it's His glory He has brought salvation into the work to redeem a people incapable of redeeming themselves. It's about Him saving a people that hate Him and are incapable of saving themselves, while to me He is the greatest treasure, and please don't think I'm trying to take any attention or focus off the fact and the miracle of Him saving us, but it wasn't about "me", it's ALL about Him and His glory. He is everything.

I just think we should try harder to be "one body" and "of one mind", spend less effort trying to "teach" each other like this. One HUGE thing we lose by communicating through text only is any kind of intimate connection, so we are just trying to teach each other into what God has shown us "on paper". Trust me I see how big some of the differences are and agree we should talk about them, and listen to others as well. I go to an AG Pentecostal church and don't share the view of tongues they have, nor am I a pre-tribber, but I love the people there, believe I am where God wants me (and under the pastor He's placed over me), and most of all and most importantly I trust God to work through the power of His word in truth.

I just know I have been saved for 4 years now and I do not see it the same way I did in the beginning, and God is at the center of why my view has ever changed, so I don't have the burden of changing anyone on my shoulders, I just share the truth in love, trust God doesn't lie, and that He will be true to His word. I guess I'm just kind of thinking out loud with you guys, but I am really just wanting us Christians to show the world something better than what they already have, and think our approach to each other should be better, never compromising truth at all, just less combative with each other. Sometimes we treat the unbeliever better than each other, not that we shouldn't treat them as Christ like as He commands, but when we treat out brothers and sisters worse that's kind of telling in my opinion, no matter the disagreement. I also want to put out there that I am very guilty of the same exact thing and I want to be better at this too. Again just sharing what's on my heart. I pray that you all have a great day, and God draws everyone closer to Him in truth.

 

[Snoozy]

Why would an anti-cal even bother praying to God to save ANYONE? It is up to the person! "God has given up his Sovereignty to people!" LOL!!!!!!!! So why are you praying then?????????????????????

"Dear God please save so and so. I mean, please make them decide. Wait. No. You don't do that. Please save them. Wait. Please let them save themselves without any of your involvement so as to not infringe upon their free will. I mean, well, I'm worried, it's all in their hands to do it, and I know you can't do anything about it, so I am worried just like you are God. There is nothing we can do. Why am I even praying?"

What hypocrisy, ignorance and absurdity. God can't save them, they have to choose on their own to be saved. What are they praying for actually, God to coerce them to choose him??????? LOL!!!!!!!!!!

i think people who are arminian are praying for God to influence the people, to draw them. to have some guy bring them the gospel or something.

 

[7777pinacled]

I'm wondering what you guys think of this.


Some unnamed verbose chatter claimed that it is inappropriate for a believer to pray for God to save specific unbelievers, because that implies the person being prayed for would have a greater chance of coming to faith than a person that is not prayed for. Therefore, that would make God a respecter of persons, which violates his absolute view of salvation being a result of the free will decision of the person.

He called the individuals in the room a bunch of mindless Reformed people for objecting to his view.

I am a Reformed person, and my view is that God ordains both the MEANS and the END. So, while the END is already assured in God's mind, the MEANS are important and are a product of God's sovereignty too. God allows humans to be instruments of the extension of his sovereign grace. So, my view is coherent, whether others agree with it or not.

Here's the poll..do our prayers affect the salvation of others? If you agree or disagree, on what Scriptural basis do you present to prove the view? Are you Reformed or non-Reformed? If so, how does that perspective affect your answer? How does your view on free will affect your response?

Not only should we pray.
But we should also offer the Word as provision for those who haven't heard.
And to take due diligence of their needs.

This is Just as Yeshua(jesus had taught us.
Where is the judgment mercy and faith in praying alone.

Though there may come a time in a person's walk that they will ultimately have to dust their feet off.

 

[Beez]

great. well let's look at your question, my response and then your answer . . . .

Please forgive me! I was amused! I was just trying to be humorous back. Obviously, I failed. I am sorry.
And apparently, I misunderstood you. I am sorry about that as well. Maybe I'll get some sleep.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Please forgive me! I was amused! I was just trying to be humorous back. Obviously, I failed. I am sorry.
And apparently, I misunderstood you. I am sorry about that as well. Maybe I'll get some sleep.

no problem

I did not understand that you were amused

it sounded more like sarcasm on my end

let's just let it go

thanks

 

[Beez]

so you didn't want to explain?

. . . And when I sent you that rep, I wasn't trying to hide anything -- I accidentally hit the button. I'm a mess, obviously. I'd better try to sleep.