So post your points of how the gifts have ended

[RickShafer]

Me - Red

Everyone will say they are making divinely inspired utterances that are not found in the Bible?
or
Everyone will say they are making divinely inspired utterances that are found in the Bible?

must go out.
hopefully these divinely inspired utterances can be posted, dated and the prophet named.(More signs for the Jews)
otherwise we can not obey the command to test the spirits. (How can you, seeing as you say there is no such thing as God speaking anymore)
well, we can...but nobody has to take the heat.(Heat is right)

.....

divinely inspired utterances

this is quite a claim.(It is more of a claim to say he is silent to His churches - see Revelations chapter 2 and 3)

 

[RickShafer]

To those others, besides the parties I've exhausted asking, who claim the canon is "that which is perfect" please answer:


The Holy Spirit is repeatedly referred to in gender neutral terms.....Yet Jesus called Him a "He". - John 16:13.
Now, since the Holy Spirit had already come, what is "that which is perfect" that Paul refers to in I Corinthians 13?

- The Canon?
Matthew 23:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Please read.......was it that Zacharias that was slain between the the temple and the altar?

- - No!

Jesus never said this. Yet you will find this in all of the translations.
Why? Because the translators are just translating what was written.
Jesus was obviously referring to the writer of the book of Zachariah.
But a very early copyist made a mistake.
So don't tell me the Canon is "that which is perfect".

Sorry to so obtusely offend your religion that is in the name of Jesus.

 

[zone]

divinely inspired utterances

this is quite a claim.(It is more of a claim to say he is silent to His churches - see Revelations chapter 2 and 3)

see Revelations chapter 2 and 3?
you mean i should refer to what is written?

i don't need you (in your prophetic gifting) to point me to scripture.
got anything else?

 

[zone]

To those others, besides the parties I've exhausted asking, who claim the canon is "that which is perfect" please answer:


The Holy Spirit is repeatedly referred to in gender neutral terms.....Yet Jesus called Him a "He". - John 16:13.
Now, since the Holy Spirit had already come, what is "that which is perfect" that Paul refers to in I Corinthians 13?

- The Canon?
Matthew 23:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Please read.......was it that Zacharias that was slain between the the temple and the altar?

- - No!

Jesus never said this. Yet you will find this in all of the translations.
Why? Because the translators are just translating what was written.
Jesus was obviously referring to the writer of the book of Zachariah.
But a very early copyist made a mistake.
So don't tell me the Canon is "that which is perfect".

Sorry to so obtusely offend your religion that is in the name of Jesus.

did ya ever get around to looking up téleios?

brought to its end, finished
wanting nothing necessary to completeness
perfect
that which is perfect
consummate human integrity and virtue
of men
full grown, adult, of full age, mature

is scripture complete and sufficient?
if your answer is yes, you're playing prophet.
if the answer is no, it's y'all who belong to some other religion.

 

[RickShafer]

Me - Red

did ya ever get around to looking up téleios?

brought to its end, finished
wanting nothing necessary to completeness
perfect
that which is perfect
consummate human integrity and virtue(see the assumption? Human integrity? Ha,ha,ha! - Read Luther and Romans)
of men
full grown, adult, of full age, mature

is scripture complete and sufficient?
if your answer is yes, you're playing prophet.
if the answer is no, it's y'all who belong to some other religion.

See how she can't answer her own premise;-(The perfection of the canon)? So she holds to a word,........and on top on that certain word adds to it human perfection! - (Luther would have never)

 

[RickShafer]

Zone said - "is scripture complete and sufficient?
if your answer is yes, you're playing prophet.(????)
if the answer is no, it's y'all who belong to some other religion."

There ya' go.
The scripture is inspired, so I'm playing prophet.
(Notice the concentration on persons - - - you, your, ya'll)
Stop while you're behind.
Let someone else answer please.

 

[Stephen63]

Sometimes when I read these threads it looks like a cheap, cheesy rendition of an already cheap and cheesy reality show.

 

[RickShafer]

Once again, for those that hold that the canon is that perfect which will come in I Cor.13.

The Holy Spirit is repeatedly referred to in gender neutral terms.....Yet Jesus called Him a "He". - John 16:13.
Now, since the Holy Spirit had already come, what is "that which is perfect" that Paul refers to in I Corinthians 13?

- The Canon?
Matthew 23:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Please read.......was it that Zacharias that was slain between the the temple and the altar?

- - No!

Jesus never said this. Yet you will find this in all of the translations.
Why? Because the translators are just translating what was written.
Jesus was obviously referring to the writer of the book of Zachariah.
But a very early copyist made a mistake.
So is it the Canon which is the subject of: "that which is perfect".


​

 

[onlinebuddy]

Did you ask this sincerely or with the intent to go after and ridicule him? A gift of God is not given to be possessed because it can be taken away. I am not talking about about imputed gifts that have to do with salvation but gifts given for the edification of the body. I'll tell you a gift of the Spirit that was given to me and its 'helps' recorded in 1 Cor 12:28. This is more that what a deacon would do in serving the poor, needy and the sick. It's a gift that includes having the ability to perceive when their is a need and to lay hold on the source of meeting that need, whether it is material or spiritual in nature. It can be done confidentially or publically in the body with the purpose of edifying the members of the church. If I get carnal and spiritually off that gift becomes inactive because the Spirit is grieved because of the flesh, but when I am walking by faith in the Spirit and living by the word in my spirit, that gift becomes active and it is given to be used with discretion not to invade individual privacy or have any kind of dominion over another. Is there someone out there that is going to tell me that I received no such gift that is listed and mentioned with the others gifts of 1 Cor 12:27,28. Has this gift also ceased because it is not needed?

I can answer that, he wants to corner me into saying I'm a prophet.
I will do no such thing. (Though I have been used by the Holy Spirit in that gifting).
He sees no gifts as described in I Cor. 13 in his life, so all who are using them are therefore(in his eyes) false prophets.
It is funny that 'prophecy' is only one of the gifts - - - - yet they all clamour for that one.(Shades of their fathers, the pharisees, who held to the O.T.; to the killing of the Spirit of God when He was made flesh).
I wonder why none asked whether I was a healer, or a worker of miracles, or an interpreter of tongues?
(It is because they don't believe any of it).
They got their answer.......the same one Jesus gave to their fathers.
The only sign they will get is Jonas three days in the belly of the great fish. - (and I'm not Jesus, nor do I do all the gifts I listed, but it makes no matter)

Hi Brad and Rick,
Firstly, I do not call myself a cessationist (or whatever terminology that you guys use). I never heard of this term till I came to CC. I believe that this is the age of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is undoubtedly at work in the lives of the believers, or else I am not a believer. However, what I do not understand is- if one cannot prove or disprove the existence of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, why discuss it at all, and make a mockery of oneself?

Did you ask this sincerely or with the intent to go after and ridicule him?

I could ask the same question about Rick's original post. Anyway, please go through all my posts and let me know if I have ridiculed anyone or spoken any word such as "moron" or "dumb." Also please let me know if I have been rude to anyone.

This was a sincere question that I ask anyone who claims that the gifts of prophecy and tongues exist. Many claim to have these two gifts. Others attribute almost any good desire or deed to the Holy Spirit and call these "gifts."

A gift of God is not given to be possessed because it can be taken away.

Fair enough.

I'll tell you a gift of the Spirit that was given to me and its 'helps' recorded in 1 Cor 12:28. This is more that what a deacon would do in serving the poor, needy and the sick. It's a gift that includes having the ability to perceive when their is a need and to lay hold on the source of meeting that need, whether it is material or spiritual in nature. It can be done confidentially or publically in the body with the purpose of edifying the members of the church.

I wouldn't argue against this. That is between you and he Holy Spirit.

I can answer that, he wants to corner me into saying I'm a prophet.

I have never implied this in your case.

I have been used by the Holy Spirit in that gifting

It is not my business to argue on that. It is between you and the Holy Spirit. It would be nice to know the details though.

He sees no gifts as described in I Cor. 13 in his life, so all who are using them are therefore(in his eyes) false prophets.

I have never made that accusation against you.

It is funny that 'prophecy' is only one of the gifts - - - - yet they all clamour for that one.(Shades of their fathers, the pharisees, who held to the O.T.; to the killing of the Spirit of God when He was made flesh).

Now, that's being rude. Don't you think so?

I wonder why none asked whether I was a healer, or a worker of miracles, or an interpreter of tongues?
(It is because they don't believe any of it).

I do believe in healing and miracles in this age, or else I wouldn't be a believer. However, the healings and miracles that are displayed in the name of the "gifts" are nothing but watered down versions of what the Apostles did.

They got their answer.......the same one Jesus gave to their fathers.
The only sign they will get is Jonas three days in the belly of the great fish. - (and I'm not Jesus, nor do I do all the gifts I listed, but it makes no matter)

That's being rude again. Don't you think so?. Relax brother! You seem to be emotionally charged up at the moment. I haven't asked for a sign. I really wanted to know why you had thrown what seemed to be an open challenge to the so called cessationists. I thought you had some strong and tangible evidence. I have just asked for a reasonable answer that would be in line with scripture.

In conclusion, if you guys have any gifts, use them to edify your churches. Do not proclaim these or challenge others. Let the Holy Spirit do the convincing.

Today, there are many who are operating in the "diversities of gifts", "diversities of administrations" and "diversities of operations" as mentioned in 1 Cor 12: 4-6 (KJV), but they do not specifically call them the "gifts" because these give rise to divisions. Furthermore, these are used by some to peddle the Word of God. We all know what a mockery our TV evangelists are making of "the gifts."

We have the gospel, which is the POWER OF GOD that brings salvation to everyone who believes. Salvation is the biggest miracle that I have experienced and seen others experience since I was 19. The written Word of God is more powerful and effective than anything I have ever known.

 

[RickShafer]

Once again, for those that hold that the canon is that perfect which will come in I Cor.13.
The Holy Spirit is repeatedly referred to in gender neutral terms.....Yet Jesus called Him a "He". - John 16:13.
Now, since the Holy Spirit had already come, what is "that which is perfect" that Paul refers to in I Corinthians 13?

- The Canon?
Matthew 23:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Please read.......was it that Zacharias that was slain between the the temple and the altar?

- - No!

Jesus never said this. Yet you will find this in all of the translations.
Why? Because the translators are just translating what was written.
Jesus was obviously referring to the writer of the book of Zachariah.
But a very early copyist made a mistake.
So is it the Canon which is the subject of: "that which is perfect"?

It is point specific.

 

[empowered2love]

I don't think spiritual gifts have ended at all. I've seen and experienced God's love displayed through healings and miracles. Have you ever seen the documentary "Father of Lights"? There's all sorts of amazing things that Jesus does in it. Check it out: Father of Lights

[video=youtube;eKpPVkHlDQU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKpPVkHlDQU[/video]

 

[zone]

Zone said - "is scripture complete and sufficient?
if your answer is yes, you're playing prophet.(????)
if the answer is no, it's y'all who belong to some other religion."

There ya' go.
The scripture is inspired, so I'm playing prophet.
(Notice the concentration on persons - - - you, your, ya'll)
Stop while you're behind.
Let someone else answer please.

i said:

is scripture complete and sufficient

NOT

is "The scripture inspired"

i'll rephrase it:

is Scripture inspired; infallible; complete and sufficient?

or even better:

according to GOD is Scripture inspired; infallible; complete and sufficient?

(please don't use the canon canard - already dealt with).

i asked: is scripture complete (téleios) and sufficient?

téleios
Thayer's Definition
brought to its end, finished
wanting nothing necessary to completeness
perfect
that which is perfect
consummate human integrity and virtue
of men
full grown, adult, of full age, mature

1 Corinthians 13:10
"but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

téleios
Thayer's Definition
brought to its end, finished
wanting nothing necessary to completeness
perfect
that which is perfect
consummate human integrity and virtue
of men
full grown, adult, of full age, mature

 

[presidente]

Brother the Greel word used in 1Cor 13:10 for knowledge is "teleion" G5046 not "gnOsis" G1108. and my strongs dictionary says since "to" G3588 comes before "teleion" it is neuter.

G5046 teleios tel'-i-os

complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness.

Not an argument. I'm still studying.

I'm talking about agreement in gender. Some say 'the perfect' cannot refer to Christ because teleion is in the nueter and the name for Jesus is not. I say that is a strawman, nonsense argument. The perfect can come at the second coming. Grammatical agreement with some word related to the idea that you pick out of the air is unnecessary.

But some of those who make the argument overlook the fact that 'knowledge' is feminine in the very passage, and teleion is neuter. I'm just pointing out the fallacy of their gender agreement argument.

 

[zone]

We have the gospel, which is the POWER OF GOD that brings salvation to everyone who believes. Salvation is the biggest miracle that I have experienced and seen others experience since I was 19. The written Word of God is more powerful and effective than anything I have ever known.

indeed!

the merciful and God-granted ability to understand the scriptures (i.e: esp the prophets) is also a HUGE miracle.
and this miracle He continues to perform everytime someone is brought to salvation...

Luke 24
Jesus Opens the Meaning of Scriptures
44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day

 

[RickShafer]

Zone, scripture is not perfect.
The Holy Spirit that inspired it is. Also Jesus is.
Listen to me! How many never had the benefit of the entire canon?
How many do not to this day?
Are you saying the books make people holy?
It is Jesus that the book testifies about that redeems them.
And that only through the Holy Spirit.
The canon is not magic. I thought I showed you a major error. That you never answered.
Teleios? Really? What completion? An errant one? C'mon Zone, it is the Spirit that makes the book alive in people's souls.

 

[zone]

Zone, scripture is not perfect.
The Holy Spirit that inspired it is. Also Jesus is.
Listen to me! How many never had the benefit of the entire canon?
How many do not to this day?
Are you saying the books make people holy?
It is Jesus that the book testifies about that redeems them.
And that only through the Holy Spirit.
The canon is not magic. I thought I showed you a major error. That you never answered.
Teleios? Really? What completion? An errant one? C'mon Zone, it is the Spirit that makes the book alive in people's souls.

2 Timothy 3
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God
10You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be competent, equipped for every good work.

All Scripture is breathed out by God

 

[RickShafer]

All scripture is breathed by God.
- The mistakes by the copyist's are not.
(Do you know Zone, that the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life?)
Do you see the distinction?

 

[1still_waters]

All scripture is breathed by God.
- The mistakes by the copyist's are not.
(Do you know Zone, that the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life?)
Do you see the distinction?

Some use this to mean that reading the Bible without that special lil burnin feelin in the stomach, or without the lil racey heartbeat, is the letter that killeth.

But you have to look at what Paul is contrasting in 2 Cor 3.
He's contrasting the new covenant with the old.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Such confidence we have through Christ before God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.[h=3]The Greater Glory of the New Covenant[/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory,transitory though it was, [SUP]8 [/SUP]will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? [SUP]9 [/SUP]If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! [SUP]10 [/SUP]For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. [SUP]11[/SUP]And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

The letter killeth in the sense that the law makes us aware of our sin and need for righteousness. That's all it can do.

Galatians 3

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.[SUP]22 [/SUP]But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe

So when Paul says the letter killeth, he's not saying reading the Bible without that special lil warm feeling in the heart/belly kills us. He's saying the law exposes our sin, and shows our need for the new covenant.

 

[1still_waters]

Some use this to mean that reading the Bible without that special lil burnin feelin in the stomach, or without the lil racey heartbeat, is the letter that killeth.

But you have to look at what Paul is contrasting in 2 Cor 3.
He's contrasting the new covenant with the old.



The letter killeth in the sense that the law makes us aware of our sin and need for righteousness. That's all it can do.

Galatians 3



So when Paul says the letter killeth, he's not saying reading the Bible without that special lil warm feeling in the heart/belly kills us. He's saying the law exposes our sin, and shows our need for the new covenant.

Romans 7
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. [SUP]9[/SUP]Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.[SUP]10 [/SUP]I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. [SUP]12 [/SUP]So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

 

[RickShafer]

'StillWaters', who is talking about a warm feeling?
Does the very scripture not say the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life?
Where is that "warm belly" you speak of in scripture? - (It's not there)
- - Read it as it's written, and stop reading into it.