SUFFERING AS YOUR ACT OF WORSHIP
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Trusting God in the midst of pain and suffering may be the greatest expression of worship that we can accomplish here on earth
- C. Michael Patton, Now That I'm a Christian, p. 149
'Nough said...
- C. Michael Patton, Now That I'm a Christian, p. 149
'Nough said...
I can understand their response sometimes because this is an emotional subject. Some have been abused by other believers and have not been shown any compassion for what they are in and thus a bitterness can set in. ( Heb. 12:15 )
One thing I don't understand is why people get mad when the truth that we don't have faith for something comes up?
Jesus Himself told people that they had a lack of faith or unbelief and that is why He couldn't do things or they couldn't do things either.
In my own life and walk with the Lord I often hear people say things about what is ours in Christ because we are one with the Lord but I know I don't have the faith yet to walk in some of those areas. I don't blame others that do have faith in that area because I don't have faith. I don't condemn them and call them names because I don't have faith in that area.
I just say to the Lord. "I don't have faith for that my Lord." Teach me!
In Matt. 17- Jesus is telling His disciples that they couldn't heal a boy because of their unbelief.
Imagine if Jesus said that today to some of us? We would jump down His throat for telling us we didn't have enough faith. We would come up with some derogatory name in order to marginalize Him because we would be "offended".
Matthew 17:19-20 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Jesus doesn't condemn them as then He goes about teaching them how to have faith.
Here is Jesus NOT able to do certain things because of "unbelief".
Mark 6:5-6 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
I notice here that the cure for "unbelief" is that Jesus went about teaching.
Then Jesus talked about the 2 people that had great faith and that is a whole study on it's own. Both people were Gentiles who were never under the law ( The law is not of faith).
Hebrews 5:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
This scripture is not saying that the Father put sickness on Christ "in order" to teach Him obedience.
This type of suffering was from the hands of men - not diseases.
Here is the same Greek word for "suffered" being used.
1 Peter 2:21-23 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
[SUP]22 [/SUP] WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
Hebrews 13:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
As I have said before - the faith that you have - have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he believes.
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Trusting God in the midst of pain and suffering may be the greatest expression of worship that we can accomplish here on earth
- C. Michael Patton, Now That I'm a Christian, p. 149
'Nough said...
I hope that sends the Word of Faithers scurrying, even the ones that pretend like they are not WOFers.
I have heard individuals who think they are authorities on Scripture telling medically depressed individuals they just need to "suck it up" and pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
Just by the guy's remarks, on a regular basis, you can tell he's promoting self-reliance rather than God-reliance.
It's amazing what passes for teachers on this website. If someone's voice has an air of authority, he is accepted as a teacher even though he's speaking out of his backside.
Beware, young believers and seekers. Fools can sound authoritative. I followed such an individual for a decade.
One of the most influential persons in my Christian walk was a lady named Reva who attended my congregation. She lost her son in an accident where he was decapitated, her toddler grandson choked to death while in her care, and she had cancer multiple times. Yet, never did she turn from God. I could tell sometimes she was sorely tested, though.
And, it disgusts me to hear Word of Faith "teachers" claim that if people have illnesses, and are not healed from them, it is their fault because they lack faith. Or, telling a young cerebral palsy victim that they are lacking in some way because they would be healed if they were not.
By the way, if I find out someone is a seeker or new believer, I educate them on the zany characters in the chat room, BY NAME. I encourage other sound believers to do the same.
- C. Michael Patton, Now That I'm a Christian, p. 149
'Nough said...
I hope that sends the Word of Faithers scurrying, even the ones that pretend like they are not WOFers.
I have heard individuals who think they are authorities on Scripture telling medically depressed individuals they just need to "suck it up" and pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
Just by the guy's remarks, on a regular basis, you can tell he's promoting self-reliance rather than God-reliance.
It's amazing what passes for teachers on this website. If someone's voice has an air of authority, he is accepted as a teacher even though he's speaking out of his backside.
Beware, young believers and seekers. Fools can sound authoritative. I followed such an individual for a decade.
One of the most influential persons in my Christian walk was a lady named Reva who attended my congregation. She lost her son in an accident where he was decapitated, her toddler grandson choked to death while in her care, and she had cancer multiple times. Yet, never did she turn from God. I could tell sometimes she was sorely tested, though.
And, it disgusts me to hear Word of Faith "teachers" claim that if people have illnesses, and are not healed from them, it is their fault because they lack faith. Or, telling a young cerebral palsy victim that they are lacking in some way because they would be healed if they were not.
By the way, if I find out someone is a seeker or new believer, I educate them on the zany characters in the chat room, BY NAME. I encourage other sound believers to do the same.
Trusting God in the midst of pain and suffering may be the greatest expression of worship that we can accomplish here on earth
- C. Michael Patton, Now That I'm a Christian, p. 149
'Nough said...
I hope that sends the Word of Faithers scurrying, even the ones that pretend like they are not WOFers.
I have heard individuals who think they are authorities on Scripture telling medically depressed individuals they just need to "suck it up" and pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
Just by the guy's remarks, on a regular basis, you can tell he's promoting self-reliance rather than God-reliance.
It's amazing what passes for teachers on this website. If someone's voice has an air of authority, he is accepted as a teacher even though he's speaking out of his backside.
Beware, young believers and seekers. Fools can sound authoritative. I followed such an individual for a decade.
One of the most influential persons in my Christian walk was a lady named Reva who attended my congregation. She lost her son in an accident where he was decapitated, her toddler grandson choked to death while in her care, and she had cancer multiple times. Yet, never did she turn from God. I could tell sometimes she was sorely tested, though.
And, it disgusts me to hear Word of Faith "teachers" claim that if people have illnesses, and are not healed from them, it is their fault because they lack faith. Or, telling a young cerebral palsy victim that they are lacking in some way because they would be healed if they were not.
By the way, if I find out someone is a seeker or new believer, I educate them on the zany characters in the chat room, BY NAME. I encourage other sound believers to do the same.
- C. Michael Patton, Now That I'm a Christian, p. 149
'Nough said...
I hope that sends the Word of Faithers scurrying, even the ones that pretend like they are not WOFers.
I have heard individuals who think they are authorities on Scripture telling medically depressed individuals they just need to "suck it up" and pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
Just by the guy's remarks, on a regular basis, you can tell he's promoting self-reliance rather than God-reliance.
It's amazing what passes for teachers on this website. If someone's voice has an air of authority, he is accepted as a teacher even though he's speaking out of his backside.
Beware, young believers and seekers. Fools can sound authoritative. I followed such an individual for a decade.
One of the most influential persons in my Christian walk was a lady named Reva who attended my congregation. She lost her son in an accident where he was decapitated, her toddler grandson choked to death while in her care, and she had cancer multiple times. Yet, never did she turn from God. I could tell sometimes she was sorely tested, though.
And, it disgusts me to hear Word of Faith "teachers" claim that if people have illnesses, and are not healed from them, it is their fault because they lack faith. Or, telling a young cerebral palsy victim that they are lacking in some way because they would be healed if they were not.
By the way, if I find out someone is a seeker or new believer, I educate them on the zany characters in the chat room, BY NAME. I encourage other sound believers to do the same.
There is a lot to respond to here in your post Bruce but I'm not sure I could do it justice. I am however getting clarity on some of the verses I've had in my mind for years. It is an exciting experience how the Holy Spirit brings the Scriptures out from inside our minds that we have had hidden in our hearts. He literally lifts the verses up to the surface for any given situation. We are so blessed!!!!
"Let God be true and every man a liar" comes into my mind today after coming to this Bible study forum. As many people as there are in the world there are opinions and ways of living that have seemed to "work" for different people. And so., people will want to tell what has worked for them. Some will even die for their way of living despite the truth that others are living another way and have also "survived".
This is also the way Christians roll too. No wonder God hates pride., it destroys us! The devil wants to use our personal experience to trump God's Word and truth in our lives. And many believers are not even aware of it so "in-tune" we are with our own opinions it's hard to imagine another way that could "possibly be" legit.
Yes., healing is an emotional subject but so is every other topic in our lives we believe and went through. I think we put way tooo much time and effort in our opinions and feelings and experiences. I've seen God totally not care if I got my feelings hurt over something. How many times have we all written or talked a lot only to see the futility of all our words and experiences? What a waste of time and space!! We each need to be put in our place when it comes to our opinions and God's truth. We each have a bit of truth but no one has the market on it 100% except the Father., Son and Holy Spirit.
I've discovered if I or someone else is so bound and determined to stand on opinions of what we think the Bible is saying to the degree we trample others then something is drastically wrong. The Holy Spirit needs to shake us so those deeply embedded opinions come flying out onto the floor and get swept away! That is how important opinions are. And a way to tell is how much emotion by way of annoyance is attached to our opinions and how much it bothers us if someone disagrees.
If there is a testiness and anger brewing than I know it's not of God and comes from the flesh and does NOT need to be fed. When we know this we can easily walk away from any argument here. What a blessing to know God will take the good and dispose of the bad and He is very capable and will accomplish this without human anger or self righteousness.
God's Word is able to stand on it's own strength and doesn't need the indignant attitudes of those on CC to defend it. How many times Bruce have you heard Christians point to the ONE time Jesus turned over the tables in the temple to justify human anger and annoyance as righteous and even spiritually sound?
How come people never say "oh wow how Jesus loved to the end even when He got spit on and slapped and insulted... He didn't insult back!! How can we be like that!!!???
I dare say Jesus must have been more angry or annoyed when those pharisees all wanted to stone to death that adulterous woman when there no doubt were many men there in the crowd who used her. And what about the one who was last with her when she got caught? No one even went and got that man for Pete's sake!!. That must have been really annoying to Jesus the way those guys in robes of righteousness were more than willing to kill a woman for the sake of winning of an argument.
We need the help and ability of the Holy Spirit fresh each day to save us from ourselves especially us old Christians who have been saved for years and should know better by now. The phase "There's no fool like an old fool" sure takes on new meaning the older I get. I observe myself and others and thank Jesus for His grace.
Also., it has to be said that we don't just get these things "dropped on us" by osmosis. We are not going to be forced by the Holy Spirit to believe Him and be blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places. We have to actively participate in the growth of the knowledge of our Lord and Savior process. God is sovereign but He doesn't force His will upon us. We have to read the Word and hear the Word to grow in faith. "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" It's supposed to change us by the renewing of our minds.
Like you said., if we don't have faith in Him or His love for us He won't do many amazing things in our lives no more than He did when He was in His home town. They would not believe so not much happened. Without faith. it is impossible to please God. Without faith not a whole lot of learning or relating with Jesus will happen in our Christian lives. Not much healing., not much growing in grace and knowledge of the truth. Why people here get mad to hear this I don't understand either.
None of us has "arrived" as of yet.
Please continue with your posts they are encouraging and thought provoking despite the opposition.
S
Translation: anyone that pulls G777 on the carpet is no better than a homosexual.
I think everybody understands that now, bruce.
I think everybody understands that now, bruce.
I remember this guy when he would argue and argue and argue for literally days and months on end and never ever stop
(some of us do remember those days and some read the mod post and looked things up and went...oh my!)
then the mods stepped in and said no more hyper arguing and then he went all 'oh I love the mods and I will stop'
and then he reported anyone who brought up the subject
and now anyone who points out his numerous errors, is deceitful, maligning, full of malice and other derogatory terms, according to the guru of grace
aww. see how that goes?
he used to fight and argue for MONTHS till the mods stopped it
now, he calls people a slanderer.
his use of 'we' is designed to make it seem everyone is on his side
as I said, you can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time
this is one of the most ridiculous things he has said yet. I hope he doesn't explode with all the puffing up he is doing
Slander and the manifestation of malice is when someone personally attacks the other person because they dis-agree with what is said on a subject. So, they have the need to attack the other person.
Some are just deceitful in mis-representing what is really being said. Others just don't agree and I understand that part - that is healthy and needed in the body of Christ. But the personal slander and malice is not from our new creation in Christ.
People are free to have their own beliefs in these non-essential areas but when they slander others in the body of Christ - it is just the flesh and slander and malice is in the very same lists of the flesh as living a homosexual lifestyle.
I love to contend for the faith - the faith of trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ for all things. That we are saved by grace.
I will continue by His grace to boldly proclaim Christ and Him crucified and that we too were crucified with Him on the cross and that we have been raised to newness of life - the new creation.
As far as healing goes. - I would rather die with my lips saying "You are my Healer" then to deny that God loves to heal us - the life of Jesus "doing the will of the Father" and the fact that Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father has showed this.
But others are entitled to their own opinion and I will not personally insult you nor slander you because of it.
1 Peter 2:21-24 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
[SUP]22 [/SUP] WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
All is well....we have a good, good Father and a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ!
Some are just deceitful in mis-representing what is really being said. Others just don't agree and I understand that part - that is healthy and needed in the body of Christ. But the personal slander and malice is not from our new creation in Christ.
People are free to have their own beliefs in these non-essential areas but when they slander others in the body of Christ - it is just the flesh and slander and malice is in the very same lists of the flesh as living a homosexual lifestyle.
I love to contend for the faith - the faith of trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ for all things. That we are saved by grace.
I will continue by His grace to boldly proclaim Christ and Him crucified and that we too were crucified with Him on the cross and that we have been raised to newness of life - the new creation.
As far as healing goes. - I would rather die with my lips saying "You are my Healer" then to deny that God loves to heal us - the life of Jesus "doing the will of the Father" and the fact that Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father has showed this.
But others are entitled to their own opinion and I will not personally insult you nor slander you because of it.
1 Peter 2:21-24 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
[SUP]22 [/SUP] WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
All is well....we have a good, good Father and a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ!
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Good morning from sunny England Mitspa...I have come out from darkness and sin and into the light of my Lord Jesus Christ, i was mentally sick for many years, i have had all sorts of tabs in the past, now tab free since walking with my Lord and Savior, He has cleansed me proper with His blood, sometimes my old self will remind me of bad habits, they try very hard to hang on to me, but i persist in the Lord, i trust lean and rely on Him daily, my Faith is true, He has and still heals me with His word, Praise God \0/ What a Wonderful Almighty Father we serve...xox...
Suffering is indeed a biblical topic after all most of the bible speaks of his people suffering only for him to strengthen them. Take this analogy God taught me for instance, look at the human body and see how it's only through suffering that the body becomes strong. to build muscle you have to tear muscle so it can rebuild even stronger than before, and calluses appear on you only put your body though hard labor. The human body isn't like by coincidence
Amen. Well put!
There is also a type of suffering in the body that is caused by a diseased state called "Auto-mmune" where the body starts to tear at itself thinking that it is attacking a disease but it attacks healthy cells.
"An autoimmune disease develops when your immune system, which defends your body against disease, decides your healthy cells are foreign. As a result, your immune system attacks healthy cells."
Much like we can in the body of Christ too if we are not watchful. It is the flesh "acting up".
Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Then Paul goes on in verse 19-20 to describe what the works of the flesh and "things like these " are in manifestation.
this. a million times, this.
this is the kind of post that makes me bow low in reverence to God.
the reactions i've been privileged to witness did, too. people who've lost limbs, houses and children who immediately responded with, The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord.
what if God saw fit to have us suffer? would we still worship Him?
this is the kind of post that makes me bow low in reverence to God.
the reactions i've been privileged to witness did, too. people who've lost limbs, houses and children who immediately responded with, The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord.
what if God saw fit to have us suffer? would we still worship Him?
1 Corinthians 5:8-11 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
3034. [FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]λοίδορος[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]loidoros[/FONT] noun - ( those that revile or slander others)
An abusive person, reviler, slanderer.
Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Lambda-Omicron.
Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
3034. [FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]λοίδορος[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]loidoros[/FONT] noun - ( those that revile or slander others)
An abusive person, reviler, slanderer.
Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Lambda-Omicron.
Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
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The problem with the BDF is the selection of a string of unrelated verses, from different places in the Bible, taken out of context and using them to support one's own interpretation of God's word. The key to understanding a verse in scripture is always the context of the verse.
Look at the Galatians 5: 15-20 in context. What does it say?
Keep in Step with the Spirit
Galatians 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Everything in between describes "keeping in step with the spirit".
It's time to stop all the "I'm right and you are wrong" garbage and return to letting the scripture speak for itself. We will all gain a much better understanding of what God has for us in his word.
Look at the Galatians 5: 15-20 in context. What does it say?
Keep in Step with the Spirit
Galatians 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Everything in between describes "keeping in step with the spirit".
It's time to stop all the "I'm right and you are wrong" garbage and return to letting the scripture speak for itself. We will all gain a much better understanding of what God has for us in his word.