The Temple Institute

[KJV1611]

Hello KJV1611,

Just FYI, the "He" in the verse cannot be confirming and existing covenant and that because the decree was for seventy seven year periods. Sixty-nine of those were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut off. Now there remains one seven year period, which is what that ruler, the antichrist, is going to establish. He's the one who initiates that last seven years by making his covenant with Israel. To suggest that he is confirming an existing covenant would infer that it is longer the seven years.

The word "gabar" simply means "strong, mighty." It says nothing about confirming an already existing covenant. He is the one who will be making the covenant. Here is how the NLT translates it:

"The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."

Many of the translations have it as "he will make."

Where do you find Israel in that verse?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Where do you find Israel in that verse?

Hello KJV1611,

Well first of all, we know that Israel is the "Many" of Dan.9:27 that the ruler will make his seven year covenant with because of what was stated in Dan.9:24:

"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

In scripture above, the angel is telling Daniel that seventy 'sevens' have been decreed for your people and your holy city. Daniel's people and his holy city can be none other than Israel and Jerusalem.

The scripture goes on to describe that seven 'sevens' of that decreed would be for the rebuilding and restoring of Jerusalem. After that, at the end of sixty-two 'sevens" which combined would equal sixty-nine 'sevens' with the Messiah being cut off, Christ crucified.

Daniel 9:27 is the last seven years of the decree that was pronounced upon Daniel's people Israel and Jerusalem. Therefore, when the scripture says "He will make a covenant with many" and that "He causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease" the verse is speaking of Israel and Jerusalem and that because the last seven belongs to the original decree of seventy 'sevens' prophesied for Israel and Jerusalem.

 

[samuel23]

For crying out loud, lets keep the bible study honest, Daniel 9:27 simply does NOT say, he will MAKE a covenant with the many...that is a lie. Daniel 9:27 says, he will CONFIRM the covenant with the many. There are a lot of folks who have taken the phrase, "he will confirm the covenant with the many" and believe it to mean that the Antichrist will make a covenant with the Jews...however they do not attempt to actually change the word of God. It is just their opinion that , he will confirm the covenant with the many, offers to them the idea that the Antichrist will make a covenant with the Jews. So if it is your opinion that ,he will confirm the covenant with the many, is sufficient evidence to believe that it means the Antichrist will make a covenant with the Jews, so be it, but PLEASE do not lie about the literal bible, there is no MAKE in Daniel 9:27 the word is CONFIRM, and confirm and make have very different meanings. Honesty is the best policy.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There are a lot of folks who have taken the phrase, "he will confirm the covenant with the many" and believe it to mean that the Antichrist will make a covenant with the Jews...however they do not attempt to actually change the word of God.

Your argument is moot samuel23! In Dan.9:24 the angel tells Daniel that "seventy 'sevens have been decreed upon your people and their holy city. Daniel's people would be none other than Israel and their holy city would be Jerusalem. Daniel 9:27 is regarding the last seven years of that decree of seventy 'sevens' and therefore is apart of the original decree given to Israel and Jerusalem. Therefore, in Dan.9:27, the covenant is being made with Israel and that because that last 'seven' is apart of the decree of seventy 'sevens.' Then in the middle of the 'seven' "He" causes the offerings and sacrifices to cease, which would have to be referring to Israel's sacrifices, since the decree was regarding them. At that same time "He" sets up that abomination in the holy place, which again would be referring to the holy place within Israel's coming temple.

Before you start with your "crying out loud" as though you knew what you were talking about, you need to pay attention to the entire context. Israel and Jerusalem are who the seventy 'sevens' are prophesied about and therefore that last 'seven' also has to do with Israel because it is apart of the decree of the seventy 'sevens' of Dan.9:24.

 

[KJV1611]

Hello KJV1611,

Well first of all, we know that Israel is the "Many" of Dan.9:27 that the ruler will make his seven year covenant with because of what was stated in Dan.9:24:

"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

In scripture above, the angel is telling Daniel that seventy 'sevens' have been decreed for your people and your holy city. Daniel's people and his holy city can be none other than Israel and Jerusalem.

The scripture goes on to describe that seven 'sevens' of that decreed would be for the rebuilding and restoring of Jerusalem. After that, at the end of sixty-two 'sevens" which combined would equal sixty-nine 'sevens' with the Messiah being cut off, Christ crucified.

Daniel 9:27 is the last seven years of the decree that was pronounced upon Daniel's people Israel and Jerusalem. Therefore, when the scripture says "He will make a covenant with many" and that "He causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease" the verse is speaking of Israel and Jerusalem and that because the last seven belongs to the original decree of seventy 'sevens' prophesied for Israel and Jerusalem.

Would you even entertain the idea that the many in Daniel 9:27 could be the MANY nations of Abraham?

Genesis 17:4 KJV
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Would you even entertain the idea that the many in Daniel 9:27 could be the MANY nations of Abraham?

Genesis 17:4 KJV
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Not for a minute! For as I demonstrated, scripture makes it crystal clear that the seventy 'sevens' are decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, not spiritual Israel as some have invented, but literal Israel. The reference to him causing the sacrifice and offerings to cease in the middle of the 'seven,' would demonstrate that during that first 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period, that sacrifices and offerings will have been taking place. After all, if he is causing them to cease, then they must have been taking place. Also, the fact that in the middle of the seven years that the abomination is going to be set up in the holy place within the temple, would also demonstrate that literal Israel is in view. By your post above, you are 1) misapplying scripture and 2) you are attempting to interpret Dan.9:27 spiritually, when it should be interpreted literally.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Your argument is moot samuel23! In Dan.9:24 the angel tells Daniel that "seventy 'sevens have been decreed upon your people and their holy city. Daniel's people would be none other than Israel and their holy city would be Jerusalem. Daniel 9:27 is regarding the last seven years of that decree of seventy 'sevens' and therefore is apart of the original decree given to Israel and Jerusalem. Therefore, in Dan.9:27, the covenant is being made with Israel and that because that last 'seven' is apart of the decree of seventy 'sevens.' Then in the middle of the 'seven' "He" causes the offerings and sacrifices to cease, which would have to be referring to Israel's sacrifices, since the decree was regarding them. At that same time "He" sets up that abomination in the holy place, which again would be referring to the holy place within Israel's coming temple.

Before you start with your "crying out loud" as though you knew what you were talking about, you need to pay attention to the entire context. Israel and Jerusalem are who the seventy 'sevens' are prophesied about and therefore that last 'seven' also has to do with Israel because it is apart of the decree of the seventy 'sevens' of Dan.9:24.

"As though you knew what you were talking about". So where did you study Hebrew A-e, out of interest? We all genuflect to your superior knowledge.

Anyhow, a brief straw poll reading of the Bible shows "karath' to be the correct Hebrew when making a covenant.

Ok, moment of scholarly truth.

Daniel 9:27....

....

Gabar - confirm

I'm shocked, the way you talk A-e, I thought you had graduated at Yale in Antiquities, Middle Eastern Studies, Aramaic, Hebrew and Sanskrit. I guess cum laudes are cheap when you give them to yourself

 

[zone]

Your argument is moot samuel23! In Dan.9:24 the angel tells Daniel that "seventy 'sevens have been decreed upon your people and their holy city. Daniel's people would be none other than Israel and their holy city would be Jerusalem. Daniel 9:27 is regarding the last seven years of that decree of seventy 'sevens' and therefore is apart of the original decree given to Israel and Jerusalem. Therefore, in Dan.9:27, the covenant is being made with Israel and that because that last 'seven' is apart of the decree of seventy 'sevens.' Then in the middle of the 'seven' "He" causes the offerings and sacrifices to cease, which would have to be referring to Israel's sacrifices, since the decree was regarding them. At that same time "He" sets up that abomination in the holy place, which again would be referring to the holy place within Israel's coming temple.

Before you start with your "crying out loud" as though you knew what you were talking about, you need to pay attention to the entire context. Israel and Jerusalem are who the seventy 'sevens' are prophesied about and therefore that last 'seven' also has to do with Israel because it is apart of the decree of the seventy 'sevens' of Dan.9:24.

99% right, but fulfilled in 70AD

 

[iamsoandso]

"Thy people", Daniel 10:14, the thing he was showing Daniel about was what was going to happen concerning the 70wks. he says would happen to "thy people".

 

[garee]

Where do you find Israel in that verse?

Which Israel? The ones where the word of the Lord did take effect, or the ones that made it without effect?



Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

[garee]

Not for a minute! For as I demonstrated, scripture makes it crystal clear that the seventy 'sevens' are decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, not spiritual Israel as some have invented, but literal Israel.

Invention?

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

[tanakh]

Ahwa; You can get out of Dan 9:27 what you will, and I will get out of it what it appears to say to me, however let us not CHANGE the word of God. I have studied Daniel 9:27 extensively and it says HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH THE MANY. I am well aware that a few folks have decided to actually change the bible in this place in order to make it appear to agree with a popular teaching. That is called cheating and will be judged by God. If you can get, the Antichrist makes a covenant with Israel, from, he shall confirm the covenant with the many, that is your business. I can't, it appears impossible to me to confirm something that does not already exist.

Further to my earlier posting I checked out an English translation of the Jewish OT (Tanakh) first published in 1917 by the Jewish Publication Society. It uses MAKE in Daniel 9. This edition was republished in 2011 so I am still uncertain as to whether this is what it said in 1917 or whether this edition has changed it. The only way I would know is to find an original 1917 edition so Im still wondering what to think, although I find it unlikely that the Jewish Society would bother nto change it.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Further to my earlier posting I checked out an English translation of the Jewish OT (Tanakh) first published in 1917 by the Jewish Publication Society. It uses MAKE in Daniel 9. This edition was republished in 2011 so I am still uncertain as to whether this is what it said in 1917 or whether this edition has changed it. The only way I would know is to find an original 1917 edition so Im still wondering what to think, although I find it unlikely that the Jewish Society would bother nto change it.

I have spoken
quite a bit with a Hebrew professor at a major university, and he says Daniel is challenging to say the least..

gabar means overpower/overwhelm, and refers to irresistible overwhelming force

It is often used in reference to flood waters, (and Noah's flood, which was an irrevocable judgement also - Gen 6:3,7), so in itself refers back to "coming in with a flood", the breaching of the walls of Jerusalem being like the breaching of a river bank, or dam.

In terms of the covenant it means enforce without pity, mercy, or turning back. Just like overflowing water, once it starts, it cannot be turned back.


Jeremiah 11
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord saying,
2 Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,
4 Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:
5 That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O Lord.
6 Then the Lord said unto me, Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, saying, Hear ye the words of this covenant, and do them.
7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.
8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do: but they did them not.
9 And the Lord said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
11 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
12 Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.
13 For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal.
14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
15 What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.
16 The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17 For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
18 And the Lord hath given me knowledge of it, and I know it: then thou shewedst me their doings.
19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.
20 But, O Lord of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.
21 Therefore thus saith the Lord of the men of Anathoth, that seek thy life, saying, Prophesy not in the name of the Lord, that thou die not by our hand:
22 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, Behold, I will punish them: the young men shall die by the sword; their sons and their daughters shall die by famine:
23 And there shall be no remnant of them: for I will bring evil upon the men of Anathoth, even the year of their visitation.

 

[Bookends]

Obviously you don't have enough study regarding this issue to comment. Only sixty-nine of those seventy 'sevens' has been completed. The last seven is coming up. When the church has been completed, then the one who has been holding back the full force of lawlessness and that man of lawlessness, will be taken out of the way, then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.

The timing of that last seven years is directly linked with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age when he establishes his millennial kingdom. The Lord will deal with the anitchirst/beast and the false prophet when he returns by throwing them both into the lake of fire alive. Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth, which is at the end of the seven years and none of those events have taken place.

Daniel 9 24 states:

“Seventy weeks are determined[not 69]
For your people and for your holy city,
1. To finish the transgression, [fulfilled according to Jesus and Paul, Matthew 23:29-32,Hebrews 9:15, 1 Thessalonians. 2 14-16, Colossians 2:13
2. To make an end of sins,
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. To seal up vision and prophecy,
6. And to anoint the Most Holy.

Matthew 23:23-32:
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. [in other words, by killing me (Jesus), you will have filled up the transgressions of your fathers. There is nothing more they, the Jews, can do to put them over the top in filling the cup of God's wrath].


Hebrews 9:15:
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. [faith and belief in Jesus is the redemption, the excuse from (pardon) the finished transgressions of the OT and including the crucifixion of Jesus].

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16:

13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.


Cololians 2:13:

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, [being in Christ]...

You can see that the bible states that 1 of these 6 conditions has been fulfilled. I'm out of time for now, but I'll show you that the bible states that all 6 of these 6 conditions have been fulfilled. And if this is the case, then the 70 weeks (not 69) are finished, fulfilled.

 

[KJV1611]

Which Israel? The ones where the word of the Lord did take effect, or the ones that made it without effect?



Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Confirming the covenant with Abraham... one would assume "many" to be the many nations of Abraham.

 

[iamsoandso]

what about the ten tribes who were carried away into captivity in Assyria? In Daniel 10:14 when he said "Thy people" in lieu of the 70weeks were those in captivity in Assyria numbered in this? Those who were in captivity in Babylon, who went into captivity along with Daniel are the "thy people" that is denoted. The other children of Abraham;Esau.Ishmael,Joktan,Zimran,Ishbak,Midian,Shuah and Medan were not the ones in captivity in Babylon with Daniel. So the 70 years they were in captivity nor the 70 weeks from the going forth of the decree to rebuild the temple are in regards to Abraham other children. There are in Daniel things determined in regards to the whole earth(everyone not just Judah) an example is Daniel 2:39 "whole earth",and also is in regards to the latter days of the whole earth Daniel 2:28...

 

[garee]

Confirming the covenant with Abraham... one would assume "many" to be the many nations of Abraham.

Yes, Abraham is typified as the father of many nations. Not one the Jewish nation.

It the mistake the fleshly Jews had, looking to Abraham's flesh as to our Father in heaven . Making the true Father to effect.

It is one of the "think not" loving commandments. It is like Christ said, He can make children of Abraham out of lively stones seeing they make up the spiritul house of God, the new heavenly Jerusalem , prepared as His bride.

The Catholic do the same with Peter, usurping our Father in heaven ,so that they can rather serve their own corrupted flesh rather than walking by faith (the unseen) .

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The huge problem with this view is the fact that any possible Jewish temple in Jerusalem will not be the temple of God.

Because the old temples, sacrifices, priesthood etc are done. See the letter to Hebrews.

1. Can you tell me when one animal sacrifice was ever used to take away 1 sin.
2. The high priest in Jesus day was against God, and when he entered on the day of atonement, was his sacrifice EVER seen by God as salvic.
3. Did Jesus not call that temple (which was prety much worthless as far as removing sin and was worthless long before Jesus died) his Fathers house?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The prophets said there would be a temple .It said a future world leader wound enter the inner sanctuary and commit an abomination of desolation. declaring himself to be God,The excuse are argument that it is not a temple of God. or not needed is mute, Because there does not have to be a temple of God, just a temple

 

[samuel23]

About Daniel 9:27, I found this on the net. Hebrew transliteration, confirm=to make strong. Mistranslated in NASB as to "make a covenant". Correct, "to strengthen a covenant". Also the word covenant in that place is the same word for the Abrahamic covenant.