Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?
- Thread starter JGIG
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Grace is under such attack today, you won't get many people to just straight up answer this.
YES IT DOES. If Grace didn't cover it, 90% of believer's wouldn't be saved. Because 90% of believers KNOWINGLY live in PRIDE maintaining their salvation with their sinning less and "good" deeds..................WAYYYYYYY worse than living in unrepentant sin. They live in EVIL........But if they had trusted Christ at some point, Grace covers them.
They knowingly live in EVIL..........because they have been told grace is HYPER 1000's of times.
YES IT DOES. If Grace didn't cover it, 90% of believer's wouldn't be saved. Because 90% of believers KNOWINGLY live in PRIDE maintaining their salvation with their sinning less and "good" deeds..................WAYYYYYYY worse than living in unrepentant sin. They live in EVIL........But if they had trusted Christ at some point, Grace covers them.
They knowingly live in EVIL..........because they have been told grace is HYPER 1000's of times.
Calvinism does not teach that salvation can be lost - you might want to check your history on that one. And Dr. Brown, an Arminian, does preach that. He has also maligned many preachers who preach the Gospel of grace, who don't preach that sin doesn't matter.
As for the answer to the question, again, the 'answer' has drifted off into generalities of people 'out there'.
The question posed in this thread is
-JGIG
As for the answer to the question, again, the 'answer' has drifted off into generalities of people 'out there'.
The question posed in this thread is
Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?
-JGIG
They do this because of the judgemental nature to assume the worst of others and protect themselves from potential evil. We are not God who is capable of giving unlimited grace and seeing other people's hearts and we are selfish. Only by understanding and accepting our sinful nature that we can find a way to control it. But why would you be concerned about what others think or assume? It is between you and God. Only He knows your heart.
I think it's more of an assumption on the part of those whose beliefs are being put into question. I haven't yet seen someone say that someone is living in blatant unrepentant sin, but instead I have seen it brought up as a hypothetical situation based on the hypergrace and osas core premises.
Secondly, many people who do not believe in hypergrace and osas also believe in God's grace and are "grace folks" as well.
Secondly, many people who do not believe in hypergrace and osas also believe in God's grace and are "grace folks" as well.
I get that, but it goes against the Scriptures that they claim to hold in high esteem. They quote verses that they feel like they can bash others over the head with, and ignore the Scriptures that build up the Body.
It's very curious.
I really do not care what the likes of folks who bear false witness think or assume. It does get old, however, when we are maligned on a public forum and have to constantly set the record straight.
Interesting that we haven't heard from those who engage in the assuming . . . It would be interesting to hear why they do it.
-JGIG
It's very curious.
I really do not care what the likes of folks who bear false witness think or assume. It does get old, however, when we are maligned on a public forum and have to constantly set the record straight.
Interesting that we haven't heard from those who engage in the assuming . . . It would be interesting to hear why they do it.
-JGIG
But if those are hypothetical situations, those are hypothetical people committing hypothetical sins. It is an avenue navigated on fabrication, not on fact, and serves no purpose.
Why not just present what God has to say about a thing and leave it at that, without bringing their imaginations about what 'might' be going on?
-JGIG
Why not just present what God has to say about a thing and leave it at that, without bringing their imaginations about what 'might' be going on?
-JGIG
Every believer in Christ makes "mental assent" and "lip service" to that they believe in the grace of God. It is hard to fight against Eph. 2:8-10.
Where the rubber meets the road is what they say about "obtaining and maintaining" righteousness. Is it done by what " they do or don't do?" ...or is righteousness all by the gift of righteousness because believers are in Christ and He is our righteousness?
The answers to this question will reveal whether we are living by grace or by our own works of righteousness. The truth is "how we came to Christ is how we walk on in Christ".
There are not two ways of living by the grace of Christ - one for when we come to belief in Christ and another one for living by the grace of Christ.
Works-based righteousness is deceptive in it's thinking and it has many faces and all those faces reveal that we are not truly living by the grace of Christ but we will make "mental assent" to the fact that we are living by grace - because everyone knows Eph. 2:8-10 is true.
Colossians 2:6-8 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Where the rubber meets the road is what they say about "obtaining and maintaining" righteousness. Is it done by what " they do or don't do?" ...or is righteousness all by the gift of righteousness because believers are in Christ and He is our righteousness?
The answers to this question will reveal whether we are living by grace or by our own works of righteousness. The truth is "how we came to Christ is how we walk on in Christ".
There are not two ways of living by the grace of Christ - one for when we come to belief in Christ and another one for living by the grace of Christ.
Works-based righteousness is deceptive in it's thinking and it has many faces and all those faces reveal that we are not truly living by the grace of Christ but we will make "mental assent" to the fact that we are living by grace - because everyone knows Eph. 2:8-10 is true.
Colossians 2:6-8 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Its just a smoke screen.
Its the weak brother accusing the strong brother to try and take the spotlight off of his weakness. The weak brother doesn't want people to know he is weak. That is the worst thing that can happen. I don't even know if the weak brother admits his weakness to his own self.
Romans 14...
Its the weak brother accusing the strong brother to try and take the spotlight off of his weakness. The weak brother doesn't want people to know he is weak. That is the worst thing that can happen. I don't even know if the weak brother admits his weakness to his own self.
Romans 14...
What I often see is there's a group that "generally" speaks to what scripture says regarding a subject, but then the next group feels personally accused by the first group and then starts "specifically" speaking to them with every denigrating label conceived; telling the first group that they're judging them and calling them this or that, when nothing specific was ever said to them. And then fighting ensues.
Almost always happens without fail.
I think we have to look inwardly at whether the Spirit is convicting us about something or whether it's a false spirit that we need to test with the scriptures, instead of thinking things are being assumed of us by others. Then if we're sure we have the truth there should be a peace inside us where we shouldn't the need to be so quick to defend.
I sort of touched on this in my earlier comment, but another angle on this is that the anti-grace legalistic person does not really understand the depth of human depravity. This would explain why he thinks his human works mean something to God, that God is impressed with his "repentance" for example. I'm not saying we should continue in sin. We should do our best to avoid sin especially in our areas of weakness. But we must lean on grace for the rest of our lives, until we die and are forever free from the sin nature.
Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version(KJV)
8.)For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9.)Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10.)For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
King James Version(KJV)
8.)For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9.)Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10.)For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I would give you the perspective that the sin nature (being in Adam) is replaced with New Life (being in Christ) at the time that we believe and receive the free gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and New Life. It's not the 'sin nature' we wait to be free of, but the flesh. The 'sin nature' teaching stems from a translation issue, and is well discussed HERE if you're interested in taking a look.
-JGIG
-JGIG
I am one of those that came to this forum and assumed that "grace folk" (I believe in grace too!) either lived, or taught, or were OK with sin and did not teach discipleship.
(I am not sure about your words - "blatant, unrepentant" - Have "non grace-folk" really used those words? I don't think I was that severe, but probably some have been. I am sorry!)
I have changed my mind because of my interaction with people on this forum. You have proved to me that someone who believes in OSAS can be as zealous for good works and to follow Christ in life as I hope I am.
Sure there are hypocrites and play-actors in your midst who pose as zealots of grace, but don't live by the grace of God. And I have sensed these -- it is usually not hard to sniff them out! But that doesn't negate the Christian testimony and character of the rest of you.
Why do people assume "grace folk" live in unrepentant sin?
(1) I was taught that was the way it is - from little up I heard belief in OSAS = no discipleship
(2) Because of the state of the church in America today - the church is little different from the world - this is blamed on the OSAS doctrine
Wrong ideas? Yes, but in my experience that is at least part of the reason I believed the way I did.
Now, may I plead for parallel understanding from the "grace folks"? Please do not mischaracterize us as people who believe that works keep us saved. I started two recent threads on this subject, so I won't say much more here. See especially the thread called "Two useless/wrong/inappropriate accusations"
I think I understand two of the reasons we are mischaracterized in this way:
(1) Like I was taught from childhood up - so many of you have been taught from childhood up that if someone does not believe in OSAS that they automatically are works oriented
(2) Because of those who do believe and live a works mentality and teach that works keep us saved -- I grew up in this sort of atmosphere and I hate it just as much you do.
(I am not sure about your words - "blatant, unrepentant" - Have "non grace-folk" really used those words? I don't think I was that severe, but probably some have been. I am sorry!)
I have changed my mind because of my interaction with people on this forum. You have proved to me that someone who believes in OSAS can be as zealous for good works and to follow Christ in life as I hope I am.
Sure there are hypocrites and play-actors in your midst who pose as zealots of grace, but don't live by the grace of God. And I have sensed these -- it is usually not hard to sniff them out! But that doesn't negate the Christian testimony and character of the rest of you.
Why do people assume "grace folk" live in unrepentant sin?
(1) I was taught that was the way it is - from little up I heard belief in OSAS = no discipleship
(2) Because of the state of the church in America today - the church is little different from the world - this is blamed on the OSAS doctrine
Wrong ideas? Yes, but in my experience that is at least part of the reason I believed the way I did.
Now, may I plead for parallel understanding from the "grace folks"? Please do not mischaracterize us as people who believe that works keep us saved. I started two recent threads on this subject, so I won't say much more here. See especially the thread called "Two useless/wrong/inappropriate accusations"
I think I understand two of the reasons we are mischaracterized in this way:
(1) Like I was taught from childhood up - so many of you have been taught from childhood up that if someone does not believe in OSAS that they automatically are works oriented
(2) Because of those who do believe and live a works mentality and teach that works keep us saved -- I grew up in this sort of atmosphere and I hate it just as much you do.
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If I understand what you are asking, there are those people who work hard to obey Jesus by resisting the temptations of the world. Then they hear certain other people tell them that there is no reason to do that – that grace is all they need. One might wonder, then, if this second group of people are trying very hard to resist those temptations.