Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?

[PeterJens]

As I grow in the Lord, I just cannot agree. Ignorance is no excuse. After we get all the overt sins figured out and pretty much cleaned up..........them comes guilt,worry,fear,and whole list of mental attitude sins. Not to mention the "good" we do in the flesh rather than the Spirit.

I can comprehend a believer living in the unrepentant sin of fear, guilt and worry. I can see how it is very possible.

We have no idea how bad our sin problem really is. And Grace trumps it by leaps and bounds.

Progress - so we are not talking overt sin, but projected sin based on internal
appreciation. But this is not sin more like lack of understanding emotion and how
certain things run away with us, rather than putting emotion in its place.

This is where self condemnation kicks in and hyper legalism goes wild,
nothing really to do with the Lord rather insecurity and mental illness.

 

[BenFTW]

Progress - so we are not talking overt sin, but projected sin based on internal
appreciation. But this is not sin more like lack of understanding emotion and how
certain things run away with us, rather than putting emotion in its place.

This is where self condemnation kicks in and hyper legalism goes wild,
nothing really to do with the Lord rather insecurity and mental illness.

Hyper-legalism? Ha! Thats a good one, its quite a convenient word so that a person can lower the standard of perfection that God requires to something doable/achievable.

 

[Persuaded]

As I grow in the Lord, I just cannot agree. Ignorance is no excuse. After we get all the overt sins figured out and pretty much cleaned up..........them comes guilt,worry,fear,and whole list of mental attitude sins. Not to mention the "good" we do in the flesh rather than the Spirit.

I can comprehend a believer living in the unrepentant sin of fear, guilt and worry. I can see how it is very possible.

We have no idea how bad our sin problem really is. And Grace trumps it by leaps and bounds.

I must confess that I forgot about fear, guilt, and worry, so I see your point.
I conquered fear, guilt and worry years ago. Or should I say I turned it over to my Lord and He conquered it in me.

 

[Grace777x70]

As I grow in the Lord, I just cannot agree. Ignorance is no excuse. After we get all the overt sins figured out and pretty much cleaned up..........them comes guilt,worry,fear,and whole list of mental attitude sins. Not to mention the "good" we do in the flesh rather than the Spirit.

I can comprehend a believer living in the unrepentant sin of fear, guilt and worry. I can see how it is very possible.

We have no idea how bad our sin problem really is. And Grace trumps it by leaps and bounds.

Well said!

To the humanistic religious mindset just the "biggie sins" are important but the reality is that those that slander and have malice towards others in the body of Christ are in blatant unrepentant sin just like the Christian that says it's ok to live the homosexual lifestyle.

There is NO difference between these two types of people.

The bizarre thing is that is seems to be some of those that say we are to walk in righteousness and purity are the very ones that exhibit this slander and malice towards others in the body of Christ that have a different belief in an area than they do. Go figure...

 

[Gr8grace]

Progress - so we are not talking overt sin, but projected sin based on internal
appreciation. But this is not sin more like lack of understanding emotion and how
certain things run away with us, rather than putting emotion in its place.

This is where self condemnation kicks in and hyper legalism goes wild,
nothing really to do with the Lord rather insecurity and mental illness.

Have no clue to what you said...............And it doesn't worry me a bit.

 

[Sirk]

To the OP....because people get stuck in black and white thinking. Not that I'm saying that certain things aren't black and white but some people live that out as a way of life. It has more in common with the criminal mind and victimizers than anything to do with Jesus.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Originally Posted by BenFTW

You still are misquoting me?

Nope, those are your words from direct quotes from some of yuz JP WOF HP "cult" followers....just exposing the shame of yawls false doctrine is all...enjoy.

 

[Adstar]

Answer and discuss, please.

Thanks!



-JGIG

Works salvation believers always do their best to portray Grace believers as being corrupt sinners who use the grace of God as a license to sin.. It is their sock standard straw-man argument designed to attack the person with the hope of undermining the standing of the one who holds the belief in Gods Grace, in the hope of undermining the doctrine of Grace by associating it with immoral sinners...

It's a classic debating tactic of trying to undermine the opponents argument by attacking the moral standing of the one holding that belief.. So goes like this.. People who believe in position G are bad immoral people,, therefore the position G is bad and immoral because it is held by bad and immoral people...

 

[JGIG]

If I understand what you are asking, there are those people who work hard to obey Jesus by resisting the temptations of the world. Then they hear certain other people tell them that there is no reason to do that – that grace is all they need. One might wonder, then, if this second group of people are trying very hard to resist those temptations.

Why not just go to the Scriptures to see what God has to say about it?

God is clear: Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness; Law is the power of sin.

'Working hard' to obey is not part of the New Covenanent; obedience is a fruit, not the root of walking in the Spirit.

-JGIG

 

[Yahshua]

Exactly what I was thinking of doing JGIG; to see how scripture defines Grace. Just took a bit long lol.


Titus 2:11-14 {bracket is mine}
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

{HOW??}

12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly lusts, and to live self-controlled, righteously and godly lives in this present age,

13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

14 who gave himself for us to save us from all {ANOMIA = disobedience/lawbreaking/sin} and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager for good works.


So Paul says Grace is "God's Guidance", teaching us not to sin but to live godly NOW, TODAY, while we wait for Christ to return. Peter echos the same thing...


2 Peter 2-4 {brackets mine}
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature {CHRIST'S VERY OWN NATURE}, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


So Peter says Grace & Peace are God's tools given to us to live godly and escape corruption from the world's sinful desires. So grace is "God's divine empowerment and guidance to avoid sin". We can't speak about grace without speaking about the power of Christ's nature to avoid sin's temptation. So the natural conclusion of having this divine power is to stop sinning, as Christ never sinned with that same divine power.

With scripture's definition of Grace let's reread a few popular passages with it inserted:


John 1:14 & 17 {brackets mine}
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of God's divine empowerment and guidance to avoid sin and truth.

17 For the law {THAT DEFINES SIN} was given through Moses; but God's divine empowerment and guidance to avoid sin and truth came through Jesus Christ.


Acts 15:11
11 But we believe that through the God's divine empowerment and guidance to avoid sin of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by God's divine empowerment and guidance to avoid sin you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Romans 3:20-24 {brackets mine}
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God {apart from} the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned {PAST TENSE}, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely {then} by God's divine empowerment and guidance to avoid sin through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 5:20-6:2
20 The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, God's divine empowerment and guidance to avoid sin increased all the more,

21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, also God's divine empowerment and guidance to avoid sin might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that God's divine empowerment and guidance to avoid sin may increase?

2 God forbid! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer?


Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under God's divine empowerment and guidance to avoid sin.


So scripture doesn't say Grace is a *covering* for sin or an "unmerited favor", which are the specific definitions folks like me argue strongly against because it's like saying Grace is akin to car insurance. And if that's true (that grace is "sin coverage"), it no longer matters if a person keeps sinning.

I think everyone here agrees that sinning is wrong, and specifically I'm not saying anyone here condones sinning (because I don't know anyone's heart) but I'm just saying the inevitable conclusion of having the wrong definition of Grace is that one can reason to continue sinning, without consequence, which actually keeps a person in bondage to sin and under the condemnation of God's holy law. But God shows his mercy by closing his eyes for a time to things we don't fully understand...and if grace be one of those misunderstandings then I'm thankful for his mercy.


Acts 17:30-31 {brackets mine}
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent {to turn completely from all sin}:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Scripture says it matters whether we keep sinning because Grace is the power to stop. Paul asks, shall we choose to continue in sin just so we have MORE of this divine empowerment to stop sinning? "Absolutely not", he says because if we're dead to sin we can't live in sin any longer.

We absolutely can not continue to sin, not with all God has given us which pertains to godliness; the very divine nature of Christ. I hope this blesses folks.

 

[JaumeJ]

People, any who are children of the Most High God by the Blood of His only begotten Son know to always extend mercy, yet do our best to obey what we know is God's desire (His will). Grace only is license, law only is being under the law, but grace with the infilling of the wisdom of understanding the teaching of God in both Testaments is the only way, law understanding grace will give even a fool the knowledge and wisdom of true obedience for it is written on your hearts, and we now know what to obey and when to forgive..........mercy, justice and faith....amen.

 

[PeterJens]

Hyper-legalism? Ha! Thats a good one, its quite a convenient word so that a person can lower the standard of perfection that God requires to something doable/achievable.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matt 5:48

Is this a meaningful statement taken out of context.
God is perfectly beautiful, perfectly just, perfectly merciful, perfectly holy.
Can God perfectly do the high jump, or any other human activity?

Now Jesus is talking about one aspect, loving your enemy. He is saying as God
loves His enemies so must we.

The trouble is with the term perfect is it just means here is a task or thing, which
has a standard, do it exactly the same, with no mistakes.

Now a lot of things God can do we cannot. Create things, foreknow the future,
see into the heart of another, read their thoughts etc.

There are things we can do which God does not. Sex, breath, marriage, ablutions,
die. We cannot be eternal, be free from our bodily constraints, know that which
beyond we have learnt or can take in with our IQ etc.

So to be like the Father we can only do that which is humanly possible.
Therefore as we cannot be perfect like the Father, Jesus must be addressing
the aspect of the Father we can be perfect in.

Now if this is the whole basis of why walking in righteousness is impossible
one has a very poor view of Christ and righteousness and sin.

But then the problem with heresy is taking things completely out of context so
one phrase undermines everything else, but that must be the definition of truth
and the rest is all junk. No. You have miss-understood the one phrase.

 

[beta]

CHILDREN ! God is teaching us to WALK....NOT hop through life on one leg or the other.
It takes 2 legs to walk - Love and Law - plus a combination of movements....so ALL scripture is profitable...!
let us not get 'bogged down and stopped from walking by focusing on 'single points only, let's give way to each other so we can move foreward toward holiness and perfection. That is God's Will !

 

[PeterJens]

let's give way to each other so we can move foreward toward holiness and perfection. That is God's Will !

Amen to walking toward holiness and perfection ( as the Lord defines it )

The problem is HG believers believe this is impossible and a dream that causes legalism.
Worse still by talking about what purity and holiness is you create religious zeal that dooms
people to hell.

It is why they continually post innane long lists of verses that do not address the issues and
also have changed the meaning of basic christian concepts to fit their theology.

It is so bad those who stand for the very sentiments you are expressing are called anti-christs
and trampling on the cross.

Angela, a biblical student at first thought the division was along the OSAS non OSAS lines
but adventually agreed this is straight heresy and a real threat to biblical christianity.
Another brother looked in to gnosticism, and concluded a lot of the mystical aspects of their
theology mirror the gnostic ideas of dualism, a perfect spirit in a body of evil flesh.

It also highlighted a doctrine of inability, inability within the human spirit to ever walk righteously
before God until we are given a heavenly body. This is a gnostic concept and became mainstream
in about 400AD through Augustine. This effects the whole church since then in the theological
world, but not in the believers world so much.

So what you see reflected in cc is a much deeper divide that would appear on the surface in
the whole christian church. Some do not realise where they are on this divide and many
are not effected, as some of the ideas are not spread that far, but it has been surprising
how many are in basic agreement with this heresy.

It is also why I was surprised when I expressed basic theological positions I was being opposed
in a "you have an evil spirit" way when I did not expect this.

It also demonstrates how little people know scripture and the road of discipleship, but then this
is partly why I came to cc to discover how things were, praise the Lord.

 

[Grace777x70]

Works salvation believers always do their best to portray Grace believers as being corrupt sinners who use the grace of God as a license to sin.. It is their sock standard straw-man argument designed to attack the person with the hope of undermining the standing of the one who holds the belief in Gods Grace, in the hope of undermining the doctrine of Grace by associating it with immoral sinners...

It's a classic debating tactic of trying to undermine the opponents argument by attacking the moral standing of the one holding that belief.. So goes like this.. People who believe in position G are bad immoral people,, therefore the position G is bad and immoral because it is held by bad and immoral people..

.

Amen...well said.

I too have said the exact same thing in the past.

Beware of the "straw-man!"

A straw-man approach, or argument, is a tactic often described as a logical fallacy. It is the practice of presenting a simplified and often inaccurate summary of an opponent's views, then attacking that summary and concluding that you have thereby won the argument.

The problem with it is that the presenter usually does not accurately represent the opponent's views, so what he is attacking is actually a "straw-man", not the actual thing itself.

In the so called "hyper-grace" arena.....here is an example of the above "straw-man" technique in action.

...people against the grace of our Lord Jesus talked about here will say.."..the hyper-gracers say you don't have to repent and you can do whatever sin you want!" ( this is their straw-man )

Everyone knows that Christians need to change their mind and turn to Jesus....everyone knows that sinning is wrong and will destroy us....which is why Jesus came to save us from. ( This is their attack on the straw-man )

Thus the "straw-man" is killed off and so their original premise shows the validity of their argument. This is not even remotely the truth.

In real life no believers in grace says we don't change our way of thinking to line up with God's will for us nor is it ok to sin all you want. It doesn't matter how many times we say that grace is not a license to sin. It is what some people hear.

What is happening is that people are "hearing" something else other then what is actually being said by believers in the grace of Jesus as outlined in the word of God. Another thing is that it's the definitions of the words that throws people off because a word meaning in their mind is tied to their religious beliefs of the meaning of a word.

And then there are those that just mock and insult others to malign them because they view things a bit differently than they do and thus they are now heretics, satanic, deceived..etc..

 

[beta]

It is my understanding that our problems can not be sorted out this far down/along our BELIEFS....we need to go back to the beginning to find out where things have gone wrong. Not many want to do that , reckoning themselves to already know the truth....it's human nature to judge everything according to our own understanding where we all start out from and maybe still remain in (we are not nearly as smart as we think we are). So how can we learn from the start ?
We can follow the example of Jesus and His disciples ! It does not seem Christians ever started there - no, they went straight for the resurrected Jesus. But let me ask you...How would you 'recognize the risen Christ if you never walked with Him in the flesh ? ANYone could say they were Christ and you would not know the difference never having known him intimately Mat 24v5. This is why Christians are so at 'odds with each other.
I would suggest humbling ourselves and start as His disciples walking with Him and learning from Him 24/7....your choice !

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?


I believe one of the reasons is that some here are willing to readily admit to their faults and failures and others may assume that this is "blatant, unrepentant sin" as opposed to an openness to discuss challenges faced in life as described in James 5:16 (Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much).

How many of us pray for each other when we see posts which describe situations another believer is facing and trying to overcome?

How many of us point fingers at that person and accuse of "blatant, unrepentant sin"?

Then we have some who will not openly admit they have any weaknesses or faults to overcome. And the some who will not openly admit then accuse those who point out that all have faults of being schooled in deception or of using deceptive tactics.

Very interesting conundrum we face here on this Board.

Actually we see it in the worlds churches,, People are afraid to confess their sins or weaknesses to the church or others, because of the flack they will get. "your not trusting God, or you would stop" "You must not be saved, a saved person would never do those things" "You must leave our church, we can not have sinners as members of our church"

I have witnessed all of these responses to brothers and sisters who come in begging for help because they struggle, or seen countless brothers and sisters leave God because the pressure is to much to handle.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As I grow in the Lord, I just cannot agree. Ignorance is no excuse. After we get all the overt sins figured out and pretty much cleaned up..........them comes guilt,worry,fear,and whole list of mental attitude sins. Not to mention the "good" we do in the flesh rather than the Spirit.

I can comprehend a believer living in the unrepentant sin of fear, guilt and worry. I can see how it is very possible.

We have no idea how bad our sin problem really is. And Grace trumps it by leaps and bounds.

We will know one day, When we come face to face with Jesus,, how sinful we are will become very clear.. Lets pray we are at the bema judgment, not the great white throne.

 

[PeterJens]

The believer in christ believes

Conviction of sin - I am a sinner and need to sort things out, liable to judgement -ref(1)
Repentance - I am a sinner who wishes to stop sinning - ref(2)(3)
Faith - I believe in Jesus and the cross I can find forgiveness - ref(4)
Confession - I publicly confess my sin and my faith - ref(4)
Cleansing - The blood washes me clean and empowers me to walk in righteousness -ref(5)
Obedience - Love springs forward in my heart as I start to learn to love all - ref(6)
Conscience - My conscience is a barometer of how I am doing - ref (7)
Purity - We walk in Holiness as the redeemed people of God - ref (8)
Communion - We become one in mind with Christ - ref(9)(10)(11)

(1) rom 3:23 (2) Ezk 18:21 (3) Acts 2:38 (4) Rom 10:9 (5) Heb 9:14 (6) 2 John 1:6
(7) 2 Cor 1:12 (8) 2 Cor 7:1 (9) Col 3:16 (10) 1 cor 6:17 (11) Phil 2:5

Look up the verses to check it out.

The reaction to the above indicates why HG believers live in blatant sin, they do not
follow scripture or the gospel.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

You can't have grace without the law just as you can't have the law without grace. It is our duty as followers of Jesus Christ our Saviour to find the line between the two.

Jesus is, was and will be perfect. Always. We have to understand where we fit into His grace and why the law is important to Him.