Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

Brother_Don · Mar 31, 2015

[h=1]2 Corinthians 5 King James Version (KJV)[/h] 5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[SUP]7 [/SUP](For we walk by faith, not by sight

[SUP]8 [/SUP]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

crossnote · Mar 31, 2015

Elin said:

That was not about Jesus abrogating the law, that was Jesus abiding by the law, for there were several things contrary to the Mosaic law regarding their case.

He used their attempt to trap him by using the woman's sin to show them their own sin, for I suspect what he was writing in the sand was the sin of each man who, when he saw it written, turned and walked away, leaving no one to stone her.

Stoning was prescribed for betrothed virgins committing fornication.

Writing down their sins? Gee, that must have been the short version

JGIG · Mar 31, 2015

john832 said:

You're engaging in 'Selectivision' on at least two points:

1. In both Hebrews 8 and in Jeremiah 31, God clearly states this:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;

Other translations put it this way: "It will not be like the covenant . . . "

Furthermore, the New Covenant is ALL about what God will do, not about what WE must do:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law [h8451] in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

God does all the work in the New Covenant, and in the New Covenant, God says that He will forgive our iniquity and remember our sins NO MORE. That's contrary to the memorialization that occurred under the Old Covenant. Israel and Gentiles alike enter into the New Covenant by faith.

2. Be careful to define the word that occurs in the Scripture, not to go to the root word for a definition of a word that God did not inspire to be placed there (root word fallacy). You've engaged in a root word fallacy in your post above.

H8451, Torah, is the Hebrew word used there for 'Law' in Jeremiah 31. That word is defined thus:

law, direction, instruction

instruction, direction (human or divine)
1. body of prophetic teaching
2. instruction in Messianic age
3. body of priestly direction or instruction
4. body of legal directives
law
1. law of the burnt offering
2. of special law, codes of law
custom, manner
the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law

Note that Torah is not always defined as Mosaic Law. There are several other possible definitions listed there. And when many definitions are present, context MUST determine meaning in a text.

In the context of the Work of Christ, Torah after the Cross is defined as 'instruction in the Messianic age'.

Therefore Torah after the Cross is simply this:

Believe on the One God has sent and love one another (1 Jn. 3:23-24)

The New Covenant Scriptures are loaded with exhortations regarding behavior, but none carry the weight of Law (death as punishment - that price was paid at the Cross), but are given because sinning is bad for us and for those around us and produces bad fruit.

Guess what arouses sin? Law. (Rom. 5, 7)

Guess what is the power of sin? Law. (1 Cor. 15:56)

Guess what Paul thought would produce life in him actually produced death? Law. (Rom. 7)

Yet some want to 'keep' the Law . . .

If a reduction in sinning in your life is your goal, the Law is NOT the answer.

Rest in the Work of Christ and in His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood.
Come to His Throne of Grace (note that it's not a throne of judgement for those in Christ) in your time of need (Heb. 4).
For it is GRACE that teaches us to say no to ungodliness and to live upright and godly lives (Titus 2:11-14).

\o/

-JGIG

JGIG · Mar 31, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

There's a reason Old Covenant Law cannot be followed after the Cross . . . in Christ it is obsolete (Heb. 8:13).

Love is now the 'Law', but even that is a gift from God - Fruit of His Spirit and being led by Him. And if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18, 22-25).

So simple.

-JGIG

Biblelogic01 · Mar 31, 2015

Question, how would you witness to a Jew?

JGIG · Mar 31, 2015

john832 said:

So why haven't Law keepers made sure the proper authorities are in place to carry out what they believe is God's Law still in effect?

It is so inconvenient, but if you really want to obey the Law . . .

And in the Scriptures, it wasn't always so complicated as you make it out to be:

18 Appoint judges and officials for each of your tribes in every town the Lord your God is giving you, and they shall judge the people fairly. 19 Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the innocent. 20 Follow justice and justice alone, so that you may live and possess the land the Lord your God is giving you. (From Deut. 16)

2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. 6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting that person to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you. (from Deut. 17)

Pretty straightforward.

-JGIG

Viligant_Warrior · Mar 31, 2015

john832 said:

Except Jeremiah didn't know about v. 13 in Hebrews 8.

Hebrews 8, NASB
13 When He said, "A new convenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Congratulations, John. You've just negated everything you've ever written about being subject to the Law. Well, you didn't, but the writer of Hebrews did, and I know you saw that verse. There's a reason you left it off.

For as Paul wrote:

Romans 6
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There's no "and obey the Law," or "do the next right thing" or any other instruction to "do" in that passage. We have been " ... freed from sin and enslaved to God ... " we " ... derive our benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life." Done deal, signed in Christ's blood, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and delivered into our hearts by God the Father, and He is not a man that He should lie. "It is finished!" And we are His for eternity.

Biblelogic01 · Mar 31, 2015

What does through all generations mean?

Biblelogic01 · Mar 31, 2015

Is witchcraft ok to do, I mean as long as you use it to glorify and love God?

Elin · Mar 31, 2015

crossnote said:

Good one. . .I'm thinking only one, the most frequent one. . .or hidden one.

Elin · Mar 31, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

Oh on 1 final note

[SUP]18 [/SUP]So Paul still remained a good while. Then he took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and Priscilla and Aquila were with him. He had his hair cut off at Cenchrea, for he had taken a vow. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And he came to Ephesus, and left them there; but he himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews. [SUP]20 [/SUP]When they asked him to stay a longer time with them, he did not consent, [SUP]21 [/SUP]but took leave of them, saying, “I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem;[SUP][c][/SUP] but I will return again to you, God willing.” And he sailed from Ephesus.

There are only 2 vows that require shaving. To become a Priest, and a nazarite vow.
Nazarite vow only requires the head to be shaved.

That vow

Is a nazarite vow, which requires a sacrifice in it.

So even after coming to Yeshua, Paul is doing sacrifices.

Yes, Paul was all things to all men. . .to those under the law he became under the law, although he himself was not under the law.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 31, 2015

JGIG said:

anytime you come in is better than no time.

JGIG · Mar 31, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

That's the tragic lie, Biblelogic01 - you're NOT glorifying Yeshua - you are, by your actions, denying His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood. If you are truly in Christ, I'm not saying you'll lose your salvation by pursuing Torah, but you are making Christ of no effect to you in THIS life, and by choosing to walk in Law, have fallen away from Grace:

4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (from Gal. 5)

Before claiming this verse is about salvation by the Law, closely look at the definition for justified:

G1344 - dikaioō

to render righteous or such he ought to be
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Those who preach Torah observance for those in Christ often state that Law-keeping is the 'evidence' of their salvation. That pretty much validates Gal. 5:4 as being written to those in Christ who are choosing to live by the Law.

You will find, over time, that the Law that you thought would bring you life, actually kills you.

Check out the testimonies here from other believers who believed as you do now and have come to walk in Grace, enjoying God's righteousness revealed apart from the Law:

[h=2]Testimonies[/h]This page is dedicated to testimonies of those who have once been a part of the Hebrew Roots Movement / Messianic Movement, but by the Grace of God have come to understand their freedom in Christ, rooted and established in love.

-JGIG

JGIG · Mar 31, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

Note that Paul never participated in the sacrifice, and only agreed to pay for the vow to appease those who were still mixing Law with Grace in Jerusalem (all things to all people in order to win some).

Even in that, the religious leaders, not the pagan government officials, were persecuting Paul so violently that the pagan government officials had to rescue him!

Was Paul being persecuted for keeping the Law?

No.

Paul was being persecuted because he preached GRACE and righteousness apart from the Law.

I do think it's significant that Paul never actually participated in the sacrifice.

It's also important to remember that the Acts of the Apostles is an account of the infant church - while some doctrine can be gleaned from the book, most of it is just an account of steps as well as missteps in the early church. God did allow a time span of one generation for Israel to become acquainted with the Gospel of Grace before allowing the destruction of the Temple. The book of Acts details a time of transition as the Gospel went out into all the world.

-JGIG

seed_time_harvest · Mar 31, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

JESUS said if you love me keep my commandments,but how do you do that unless you love GOD because GOD first loved you.
I mean don't you have to be reborn?

seed_time_harvest · Mar 31, 2015

GandalfTheWhite said:

Sometimes people say that they are doing some of the things in the old testament because the same GOD that spoke in the new also spoke in the old testament but I think they are trying to help GOD out and they think they are doing GOD a favor.

JGIG · Mar 31, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

That's a great question.

Stan Telchin, a Hebrew Christian author of Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism IS NOT Christianity and Abandoned looked into that very question: How are Jews being reached with the Gospel? What are Jews responding to?

Christian friends, Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit, and A believing relative came in at spots 1, 2, and 3, with 28%, 11%, and 10%, respectively.

Without typing the whole table from page 105 of 'Messianic Judaism IS NOT Christianity', suffice it to say that 'Jewish Roots' came in next to last on the list for reaching Jews with the Gospel, with less than 1% being influenced.

From page 103-104 of the same title:

As one who holds an international office and is deeply involved with the Messianic movement, Sedaca has made some powerful statements. He clearly suggests that Messianic congregations have not been effective in reaching Jewish people with the Gospel. They have allowed their desire to receive favor from the Jewish community to dull their obedience to God's Great Commission. Their hearts are divided.

When it comes to Jews actually deciding to accept Christ, page 106 in the same title reads thus:

In 1996, I [Stan Telchin] contacted a thousand Jewish believers and asked them to answer this question: "What was the one (or two) most important factor(s) in your coming to the Lord?"

The direct mail industry observes that when one sends out a mailing piece it is normal to receive about a one percent response. My questionnaire produced a seven percent response. Some of the responders listed more than one important factor that helped them come to the Lord. Her is what the survey revealed:

[*=1]Study of the Bible 39.6%
[*=1]Testimony of believing friends 31.1%
[*=1]Testimony of saved relatives 9.4%
[*=1]Preaching of Gospel by minister 7.5%
[*=1]Prayers of the saints 6.6%
[*=1]Other 5.7%

Though this survey was modest, it again revealed the truth that "the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe, for the Jew first and also for the Gentile" (Rom. 1:16 CEV). Most often the Gospel is revealed to a person while reading Scripture. At other times it is revealed as God's witnesses share their testimony. And did you notice that none of the responders mentioned "Jewishness" as the thing that first attracted them to the Messiah, or that it was the key factor in their accepting the Lord?

From page 111, after several testimonies from Hebrew Christians:

Provoking Them to Jealousy
Clearly these responses reinforce our observations that different people are reached in different ways. Yet underlying almost all of the responses is the powerful truth of Paul's instructions: The Jewish people are to be "provoked to jealousy"(see Romans 11:11). Certainly the Jewish people quoted above were provoked to jealousy by what they saw in the lives of their friends and relatives, what they read in Scripture and what they heard from the pulpit.

What a clear reminder this is that it is not our ability that saves anyone. The Gospel is and always will be the power of God unto salvation for all who believe - for the Jew first and also for the Gentile (see Romans 1:16).

The book is full of example after example about how it's the simplicity of the Gospel that reaches people for Christ, whether Jews or Gentiles - the Gospel is the power unto salvation, not Torah observance.

-JGIG

just-me · Apr 1, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

Think like a Messianic Jew so you can relate to the non-Messianic Jews. And certainly don't act as if you are superior portraying an attitude of condemnation because they obey the law as they see it. That's what Paul did.

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;" 1 Corinthians 9:20

The only major problem with Christians that reject the law, because they have been told that it is wrong under the New Covenant, don't have the education to properly witness to a Jew.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 1, 2015

just-me said:

in pauls day I could see him doing this so as not to offend them.

but the hundreds of converted jews in my church would disagree with you. they were converted by the love and care and lives of those who have the true gospel, and lack of judgment on what they did. not by people going against their beliefs and trying to follow the law with them.

My best friend growing up was catholic, I did not help him to come to christ by following catholic dogma and tradition. I just did not judge him, and kept loving him.

some people are just so stuck with law. they need every excuse they can come up with to follow it.

just-me · Apr 1, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

just-me said:

eternally-gratefull said:

So you treat all the lost the same way so they will see the truth in Jesus Christ. Loving them is the very first step and that is very good. But like Paul describes of himself and how he treated them in love as you said you do, reaches further by following his example. According to scripture there is no indication that we should have the attitude of "whatever seems to work is good enough." Follow Paul's example which He also instructs us to do.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;[SUP]21 [/SUP]To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

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