Faith is our righteousness - Christ is our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins

[Complete_In_Him]

the problem with theological schools is they are useful to show a general position

Theology and schools of thought really are not useful to God or the knowledge of God. God is not a theologian. He calls us away from theology and "out from among them"

"that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men"

2 Cor 10:12
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

 

[psychomom]

We interrupt this thread to say Hi Mom.....missed you so much!!! Good to see you posting.....Carry on with the thread....Hugs Ellie.....Dar your other favorite Blond.... just in case one of your daughters is blonde.....lol

*further interruption for sisterly love*

lol... all brunette daughters (doc says we're the palest family of brunettes he's ever seen lol)

i'll take the 'other favorite blonde', though, as my sister Carol is a blonde.

hugs back, and so, so much love ♥

*we now return you to your regularly scheduled argument *

 

[FreeNChrist]

FreeNChrist - the problem with theological schools is they are useful to show a general position, but people vary in their emphasis. Pelagianism full blown is a kind of universalism, but there is a position call semi-Pelagianism.

And if you read about Wesley, he held this kind of position. So your summary is true, but there is more subtlety than you are suggesting.

Now calling me confused is your simple excuse. I am learning and grappling with the ideas, which come together at different points. Thankfully I am willing to learn and balance out these points, and not be fixed until I know where I stand. This is very much the experience we all have when we learn a new subject or have you forgotten?

You have not been learning and grappling here. You have been trying to teach others to believe as you believe. So your attempt to re-envision your purpose for being here, is a dog that just ain't gonna hunt.

Semi-Pelagianism is just a weaker form of Pelagianism. And it too has been condemned as heresy by the western church as well as ironically the RCC.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Theology and schools of thought really are not useful to God or the knowledge of God. God is not a theologian. He calls us away from theology and "out from among them"

"that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men"

2 Cor 10:12
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

The problem of using schools of theology to try to argue is a point is you have to assume the one you are discussing holds to every doctrine of that school..

If he does not.. You are off on the wrong foot. Because your idea, view or perception of what that other persons believes is wrong to begin with And when you start to be confronted about your error of his belief, Most people get defensive, and start defending themselves. and nothing ever gets accomplished.

If people like peter would just listen to others. We may not agree, and still have a stalemate, But at least we would not have the confrontational issues where he lies about everything the other person says..

 

[psychomom]

pistis, to be fully persuaded, to trust, faith based on proof, confidence.

How can we ay we have faith in god. of we lack all of these characteristics? we only lie to ourselves..

ikr? and yet, we have this--

Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform... (Rom 4:19-21)

...and it was credited to him as righteousness

and to us, as God has graciously persuaded us of the Truth, and we have such blessed assurance ♥

 

[Complete_In_Him]

And also, we must consider/understand, most people don't know the foundation of theological doctrines, let alone the entire stance of a religious governing school.

As far as "people like Peter", we all need to practice "recovering ourselves" and holding to the head, which is Christ.

The problem of using schools of theology to try to argue is a point is you have to assume the one you are discussing holds to every doctrine of that school..



If people like peter would just listen to others.

 

[psychomom]

Theology and schools of thought really are not useful to God or the knowledge of God. God is not a theologian. He calls us away from theology and "out from among them"

theology... everyone has one

it's just 'Theos' (God) and 'logos' (word)

words about God

 

[JesusLives]

*further interruption for sisterly love*

lol... all brunette daughters (doc says we're the palest family of brunettes he's ever seen lol)

i'll take the 'other favorite blonde', though, as my sister Carol is a blonde.

hugs back, and so, so much love ♥

*we now return you to your regularly scheduled argument *

Continued interruption..... Have you been to Speak lately so we can continue the love fest? I'll go check that out and leave this thread alone.....lol Carry on Blond out.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ikr? and yet, we have this--

Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform... (Rom 4:19-21)

...and it was credited to him as righteousness

and to us, as God has graciously persuaded us of the Truth, and we have such blessed assurance ♥

amen,

Heb 10: [SUP]22 [/SUP]let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, [SUP]25 [/SUP]not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

thats why Faith works, and is not dead.

If I am fully pursuaded that what God says is true, I will act on it, and do what he says..

Noah was fully persuaded God would flood the earth, He built an ark, in spite of all that was against him.

Abraham was fully persuaded that God would keep his promise, meaning he would rise Isaac from the dead, so he ffered him up as a sacrifice.

Moses, was fully persuaded of his peoples God and gave up untold riches and fame to be used by God By faith he was fully persuaded God would do what he promised, and did what God commanded to part the red sea (God did the work, Moses was ony a tool)

Rahab was fully persuaded of the God of the hebrews, and risked her life to save the men, And by it she was saved... .

Faith is not dead, It works, because it is FULLY PERSUADED

Don't come to God and say you have faith, and not be fully persuaded,, Because your lying to yourself, God and everyone..

.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

words about God

And there you have it, words "doctrine" about God... wood, hay, stubble.

The doctrine of God, is an entirely different knowledge... gold, silver, precious stones.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And also, we must consider/understand, most people don't know the foundation of theological doctrines, let alone the entire stance of a religious governing school.

As far as "people like Peter", we all need to practice "recovering ourselves" and holding to the head, which is Christ.

Christ should be our foundation. Not Paul, Not Peter, Not Armineus, Not Calvin, Not Luther and Not The pope.. Amen,,

 

[JesusLives]

Christ should be our foundation. Not Paul, Not Peter, Not Armineus, Not Calvin, Not Luther and Not The pope.. Amen,,

We all need to be like Jesus Amen?

 

[PeterJens]

Rubbish. we believe in eternal security because God promised it quite clearly:

May the Lord bless you. Every verse you quote may or may not have simple condition. That you are in communion with the Father. Jesus is not interceding for the lost. No one can pluck the saved from Jesus's hand but people can go astray out of their own choice. Put simply if choice in not involved in faith, where is love?

What amazes me is why this is such an issue. How the Lord will judge, is how he will judge. Whether I believe people can fall away and remain saved or not, will not change this reality. It will not restore them back to the body.

 

[psychomom]

And there you have it, words "doctrine" about God... wood, hay, stubble.

The doctrine of God, is an entirely different knowledge... gold, silver, precious stones.

well, doctrine isn't evil, necessarily. and everyone has doctrine, though they may not like to call it doctrine

'didaskalia' meaning teaching, usually translated doctrine.

holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. (Titus 1:9)

just like theology.. it simply refers to what one says (their words) about God.

welcome to the site, btw

 

[PeterJens]

I had a thought today.

If faith is credited to me a righteousness, ie 100% acceptable before the Lord, why do I need to walk in righteousness and not sin?

Now it began to dawn on me. If you love Jesus and dwell in Him, have a clean heart, express praise and meet needs around you, you have fellowship with God and are in a good place. Once sin comes in, things change. You dwell less with the Lord, spending time in the word and prayer becomes harder, and believing God cares is more difficult to hold on to.

If sin becomes dominant, then faith goes out the window, along with your righteousness before God.

So faith is the key to acceptance by God and gaining communion, and learning to walk in righteousness echos and enhances this relationship. Now some have argued that it is grace that keeps us acceptable, not faith. Faith would match with Pauls preaching, and also match with sanctification, walking and learning to grow with Jesus. It is the direction of travel that matters and the progress which helps maintain and reinforce faith.

The analogy with the vine also fits. If we stop abiding, we die, grow cold, loose the focus, do not desire living water, and become empty.

The grace group replace faith with grace, and make it all irrelevant what you do because it can never be lost, and does not damage what you have already gained. But in faith, if you abide in sin, you will loose your faith and its meaning will leave your heart.

Now the faith we have is a gift, given through Christ and the cross. Without life within, this faith seems to leave us.
Many christians have gone through dry periods where it all appears meaningless. Some have said they have almost become atheists. I have never gone this far myself but I know the feeling. Dwelling in the Lord changed everything though, but I think we need to explore these realities and often what we base our relationship with God on.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I had a thought today.

If faith is credited to me a righteousness, ie 100% acceptable before the Lord, why do I need to walk in righteousness and not sin?

Because if you had faith (fully persuaded) that you were a sinner, And accepted Christ as your sacrifice. WHy would you want to "continue" being a sinner.

in other words, why would you want to do anything which is against the one who saved your life?

This strawman argument is useless. It is a strawman that has outlived its usefulness because everyone realises it is just that, It does not prove anything at all.

Now it began to dawn on me. If you love Jesus and dwell in Him, have a clean heart, express praise and meet needs around you, you have fellowship with God and are in a good place. Once sin comes in, things change. You dwell less with the Lord, spending time in the word and prayer becomes harder, and believing God cares is more difficult to hold on to.

this is true, Thats why most legalists have to excuse sin, They either have to deny certain things are sin, Or hide it (which many do) which is whyt so many fall away, Their foundation was flawed..

If sin becomes dominant, then faith goes out the window, along with your righteousness before God.

If one has true faiht in God, How could sin ever become dominant again? You have never exlained this to me.. Why should I believe a person has true faiht in God to save them because they wre fully persuaded that their sin caused them to be seperated from God. and God has a better way. Then be born again By God, realise everything God said was true, and relaise every time you do sin, God was right to begin with. Only to fall back into sin so deep that it now dominates their life, and they live like an unbeliever.?

That makes no sense, period.

So faith is the key to acceptance by God and gaining communion, and learning to walk in righteousness echos and enhances this relationship. Now some have argued that it is grace that keeps us acceptable, not faith. Faith would match with Pauls preaching, and also match with sanctification, walking and learning to grow with Jesus. It is the direction of travel that matters and the progress which helps maintain and reinforce faith.

So we can come to a point in our walk we no longer need grace? Says who?? (here is the cruxt of your error)

don't you think we need to resolve this issue.


because if we do not get this right, nothing else matters, how can you not agree??
the issue of what Grace really is, And what true FAITH really is?

 

[Complete_In_Him]

Christ should be our foundation.

Yes, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ"

"For we are labourers together with God"

... according to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

We are called by a gospel "the Gospel of His Son", this is what we are to build our house of doctrine upon... the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery. There are other gospels used by God in time past, if we try to build upon "another man's foundation" and not according to the grace of Christ, we are not following the Spirit, but walking in the flesh by the spirit of our minds as men.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Christ has given a doctrine. During His earthly ministry He said His doctrine was not His. But now, we have doctrine from Christ, given by revelation to our apostle. Receiving truth from God is according to His instruction for our ministry, in this dispensation, by a gospel of God.


"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."

 

[PeterJens]

Semi-Pelagianism is just a weaker form of Pelagianism. And it too has been condemned as heresy by the western church as well as ironically the RCC.

FreeNChrist - I might be unusual, but I work from the bottom up. I start with what I believe from scripture, my walk with the Lord etc. I then try and explore this to come with a framework. I then see who I agree with. I then discovered people vehemently disagreed with me on simple points which I was surprised at. So I have then investigated what the core concepts are behind their positions and found a large variation. Now I have also discovered some theology that matches my thinking and approach.

So here I am. Whether people call it good, bad, insane, or heresy, does not bother me. I want to understand the points and then work through where I have problems with them and why. It is obvious this stuff is not simple, or even the foundations that obvious. What I have learnt though is in scripture if you see a concept repeated everywhere that is core, only once, it is minor. So faith matters, but faith in the faith of Christ, not so. Behaviour matters, but washing your hands not so.

What I found interesting on this basis was the transfiguration showing Jesus coming in His kingdom. I had dismissed this before, but not now with 3 gospels saying the same, and the Kingdom on earth beginning at with Christ walking this earth.

I knew nothing of mysticism, yet the quakers and parts of the charismatic church holding on to the holy spirit falling on a church is part of that idea. Hyper grace came with their version of a split soul and spirit. So it goes on. But all this discussion has real value, because we need a clearer gospel with application, that the simple confusion demonstrated here.

If I am evangelising on the streets, not agreeing what people are being called to or what to be born again is undermines the whole process. Why witness at all if all you get is people decrying other believers as sinners doomed to hell? So it does matter.

 

[FreeNChrist]

FreeNChrist - I might be unusual, but I work from the bottom up. I start with what I believe from scripture, my walk with the Lord etc. I then try and explore this to come with a framework. I then see who I agree with. I then discovered people vehemently disagreed with me on simple points which I was surprised at. So I have then investigated what the core concepts are behind their positions and found a large variation. Now I have also discovered some theology that matches my thinking and approach.

So here I am. Whether people call it good, bad, insane, or heresy, does not bother me. I want to understand the points and then work through where I have problems with them and why. It is obvious this stuff is not simple, or even the foundations that obvious. What I have learnt though is in scripture if you see a concept repeated everywhere that is core, only once, it is minor. So faith matters, but faith in the faith of Christ, not so. Behaviour matters, but washing your hands not so.

What I found interesting on this basis was the transfiguration showing Jesus coming in His kingdom. I had dismissed this before, but not now with 3 gospels saying the same, and the Kingdom on earth beginning at with Christ walking this earth.

I knew nothing of mysticism, yet the quakers and parts of the charismatic church holding on to the holy spirit falling on a church is part of that idea. Hyper grace came with their version of a split soul and spirit. So it goes on. But all this discussion has real value, because we need a clearer gospel with application, that the simple confusion demonstrated here.

If I am evangelising on the streets, not agreeing what people are being called to or what to be born again is undermines the whole process. Why witness at all if all you get is people decrying other believers as sinners doomed to hell? So it does matter.

Glad I could help you see that your "theology" is nothing new at all, but just the same old Pelgianism that has always been condemned as heresy by the Christian church.

 

[gb9]

FreeNChrist - I might be unusual, but I work from the bottom up. I start with what I believe from scripture, my walk with the Lord etc. I then try and explore this to come with a framework. I then see who I agree with. I then discovered people vehemently disagreed with me on simple points which I was surprised at. So I have then investigated what the core concepts are behind their positions and found a large variation. Now I have also discovered some theology that matches my thinking and approach.

So here I am. Whether people call it good, bad, insane, or heresy, does not bother me. I want to understand the points and then work through where I have problems with them and why. It is obvious this stuff is not simple, or even the foundations that obvious. What I have learnt though is in scripture if you see a concept repeated everywhere that is core, only once, it is minor. So faith matters, but faith in the faith of Christ, not so. Behaviour matters, but washing your hands not so.

What I found interesting on this basis was the transfiguration showing Jesus coming in His kingdom. I had dismissed this before, but not now with 3 gospels saying the same, and the Kingdom on earth beginning at with Christ walking this earth.

I knew nothing of mysticism, yet the quakers and parts of the charismatic church holding on to the holy spirit falling on a church is part of that idea. Hyper grace came with their version of a split soul and spirit. So it goes on. But all this discussion has real value, because we need a clearer gospel with application, that the simple confusion demonstrated here.

If I am evangelising on the streets, not agreeing what people are being called to or what to be born again is undermines the whole process. Why witness at all if all you get is people decrying other believers as sinners doomed to hell? So it does matter.

in the first paragraph you reference yourself 12 times, God once. this is what we mean: get your eyes off of your self, turn them to Christ. you have a performance-based view of your relationship with God, not a grace based one.

we do not reach up to God, he reached down to us by sending his Son. focus on the Son, stop reaching up.