An Introduction to the Doctrines of Grace: Limited Atonement

[ForthAngel]

Gods hates sin but does not hate His creation. Hell was created for the devil and his angels not for mankind. Any man going to hell goes because he will not forsake his sin. God is condemning sin and not the soul which God created. Sin is the object of condemnation not the soul. If man will not allow Christ to atone for his sin then his soul is lost because it is attached to sin.

Can you address the text? Maybe give me your interpretation line by line? Psalm 5 should be enough:

Psalm 5
4 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
6 You destroy those who speak lies;
the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Verses five and six talk specifically about people, not only their sin. Does the passage mean what it seems it means?

It is a prophetic passage part of the sermon on the mount. Jesus is speaking to Israel. It is Israel who is claiming to have done great and mighty works for God. Christ knowing their hearts is telling them they are workers of lawlessness.

You can make application to individuals who falsely profess to know Christ but the context is to the nation of Israel and others who pretend to be religious like Rome and the USA.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Can you show me from the text where nations are being addressed? I need a better explanation than your opinion in order to be able to agree with you or see your point. Can you give me a full rundown of how Jesus is speaking of nations and use scripture to do so?

 

[notuptome]

It would seem that some of you would benefit from a dictionary. You aren't predestined after the fact. That's post-destined or something if that word even existed. That's not predestined. Election is another word you might benefit from defining properly.

I prefer to use the bible to understand what the word means and how to apply it.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Our predestination is in Christ not to Christ. The benefits of eternal life are predestined in Christ made possible by the atonement of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[grif101]

Those drawn to Him will come to Him and whoever comes to Him He will not cast aside.

If everybody is drawn, everybody's saved.

No.... Not everyone accepts. It's about ACCEPTANCE and CHOOSING Jesus. Has no one read John 3:16? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life."

 

[John146]

I prefer to use the bible to understand what the word means and how to apply it.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Our predestination is in Christ not to Christ. The benefits of eternal life are predestined in Christ made possible by the atonement of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Paul's telling already saved believers that they have been predestined for the adoption. What's the adoption? See Romans 8:23. The adoption is the redemption of our body. It's a future thing. That's the believer's destination, therefore the believer is predestined for a glorified, redeemed body. Predestination is an awesome doctrine and promise for the believer.

 

[grif101]

I was going to try and read all of the posts, but I'm not going to. This predestined idea is hogwash. God wants everyone. He says it over and over in His word. The thought that He would come to suffer as He did, and not include everyone; to be separated from the Father, for just some people and not others; it's ludicrous.

God knew who would accept Him and who wouldn't. But He didn't choose some over others. He knows ahead of time, but that doesn't make those who would accept Him "predestined".

Jesus' sacrifice was big enough for ALL. Whether or not people CHOOSE to accept that, when the Holy Spirit draws them, is their choice.

 

[ForthAngel]

I prefer to use the bible to understand what the word means and how to apply it.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Our predestination is in Christ not to Christ. The benefits of eternal life are predestined in Christ made possible by the atonement of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What about the whole context:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.


11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

This passage is speaking of people, the "us" and "we" being predestined and chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Not only a predestined plan, but a predestined people. This is a passage about what God has done and is completely devoid of anything man has willed. On the contrary, it is all about what God has willed and what God has done, and what God has caused to come to pass, and the reason being for God's glory and for God's purposes according to God's council.

 

[notuptome]

Can you address the text? Maybe give me your interpretation line by line? Psalm 5 should be enough:

Psalm 5
4 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
6 You destroy those who speak lies;
the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Verses five and six talk specifically about people, not only their sin. Does the passage mean what it seems it means?

Eph 2 specifically verses two and three speaks to the fact that we were just like them until we were saved. God hates sin and love the soul He has created. Only God can hate with a perfect hatred and love with perfect love.

Can you show me from the text where nations are being addressed? I need a better explanation than your opinion in order to be able to agree with you or see your point. Can you give me a full rundown of how Jesus is speaking of nations and use scripture to do so?

No interest. You need to learn it on your own.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Jesus, in His own words, said He laid His life down for the sheep. Is everybody a sheep? No. Paul, under the Spirit's inspiration, said that the Christ died for the church, which I tend to use body of believers, as the Greek word ekklesia is used. Is everybody in the body of believers? No.

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commended his love toward us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:6-8

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures . . 1 Cor. 15:3

Jesus gave his life for ALL who have sinned. ALL w/o exception. ALL with distinction will be saved . . . those that believe in him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can you address the text? Maybe give me your interpretation line by line? Psalm 5 should be enough:

Psalm 5
4 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
6 You destroy those who speak lies;
the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Verses five and six talk specifically about people, not only their sin. Does the passage mean what it seems it means?



Can you show me from the text where nations are being addressed? I need a better explanation than your opinion in order to be able to agree with you or see your point. Can you give me a full rundown of how Jesus is speaking of nations and use scripture to do so?

I think paul gives us the answer, because those thiings speak of all of us, for we were all that at one time.

1 Cor 6: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[SUP][a][/SUP] nor sodomites, [SUP]10 [/SUP]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God

WHat seperates those who are condemned from those who are not condemned for dong the same sin?

Those who are washed, santified and justified, how are these things accomplished, by the cross THROUGH FAITH.

 

[ForthAngel]

I think paul gives us the answer, because those thiings speak of all of us, for we were all that at one time.

1 Cor 6: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[SUP][a][/SUP] nor sodomites, [SUP]10 [/SUP]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God

WHat seperates those who are condemned from those who are not condemned for dong the same sin?

Those who are washed, santified and justified, how are these things accomplished, by the cross THROUGH FAITH.

I agree completely. However, those who are lost and not called according to God's purpose through his Son are hated by God and therefore experience his wrath and condemnation on the day of judgment.

Edit:

And let's not forget:

1 John 4
19 We love him because he first loved us.

 

[Denadii]

We have looked at the sovereignty of God, He is in control of His creation, He can bring His plans to come to pass. Total depravity, not being able to please God in his flesh, but that he can do no good in pleasing God, but that man can do good to other men, but not before God. Unconditional election by God because of mans condition of total depravity in his flesh and not being able to please God by doing good. Now we will look at limited atonement. If you did not read the Scriptures presented for each Doctrine of Grace that we have presented, you will be lost as to what or why atonement is limited or by design.

Please do not be an irrational person by having a view of the Doctrines of Grace that has been told to you by others that are not believers in these doctrines or what you think they are. Please read the Scriptures reason by the Scriptures that these are Scriptural or not. If not, please post the Scripture that show they are not, so we can reason by the Scriptures that they are not so/true, so we can build one another up in the faith so that we will not be blown about by every wind of doctrine.

Limited Atonement ​

God, then, chose some sinners to save. This did not make them saved at that time. It only guaranteed that they certainly would be saved in the end. Two more things needed to be done: prepare the means for their salvation and apply it to them. First, we read in Scripture that God foreordained that Jesus Christ would become a man and would die on the Cross as the means of salvation (Acts 2:23; 4:28). Christ died as a substitute for others (1 Cor. 15:3; Rom.5:8). He suffered the infinite wrath of God for sin, and satisfied that wrath. This is called propitiation (1 John 2:2, 4:10). Because Jesus was a perfect man and God in the flesh, His sacrifice had infinite value. He did not pay an exact equivalent for our sins; He paid a super-abundant payment infinitely above what we owed. All that He did would have been necessary had only one sinner been chosen, but He would not have had to do any more had all sinners been chosen.

Historic Calvinists teach that there are two aspects of this one atonement. The first is that there is a sense in which Christ died for all men everywhere (John 1:29, 3:16, 4:42, 6:33, 51; 2 Cor. 5:14, 19; I Tim. 2:4-6; John 2:2; 2 Pet 2:1). By His death on the Cross, He removed all legal barriers in case any man believes. His death for all men also purchased the common bounties of life for all men. It also secured a delay of judgment for them, as it were, though not a permanent one. All will one day be judged, but the fact that all men are not already in Hell is due to the atonement of Christ. Moreover, on the basis of this universal aspect of the atonement, salvation is offered freely to all men: “Come and dine, for all is ready!” (cf. Matt. 22:2-14; Luke 14:16-24). Also, Christ died for all men in this sense in order to be Lord of all men, whether alive or dead, elect or non-elect (Rom. 14:9; Phil. 2:10-11).

Most Evangelicals will agree with this analysis so far, but Calvinist go yet further. We teach that the death of Christ is sufficient for all men, but is efficient only for the elect. There is a sense in which Christ died for all, but there is a sense in which He died only for the elect. He died for all, but especially for the elect (1 Tim. 4:10). He purchased some blessings for all men, but all blessings for some men. Since the elect are scattered throughout the world and mingled together with the non-elect, Christ purchased the whole world with the special intent of owning the elect (cf. Matt. 13:44). This special aspect of the atonement is what is called Limited Atonement. Some call it Particular Redemption.

Eph. 5:25 says, “Christ also loved the Church [the elect] and gave Himself up for her.” A man loves all other persons, but has a special love for his wife and will do some things for her that he will not do for all other persons. The same is true with Christ. He has a general love for all men and did something for all men at the Cross because they were His creatures. But He has a special love for His bride and did something special for her at the Cross. He died for her in such a way as to guarantee that she would be saved, made perfectly holy and ready for Heaven (vs.26).

There are other verses that indicates this special intent of the atonement. John 10:15, 17 and 18 (my addition verse 11) say that Christ the Good Shepherd died for “the sheep”. Lest somebody think that this could include all men everywhere, Christ goes on to say that some people are not His sheep (vs. 26) Hence there is a sense in which He died for the sheep (the elect) and not for the goats and wolves (the non-elect). Later in John 15:13-14, Christ said that He would lay down His life for His “friends.” But not all men are His friends. Isaiah 53:8 prophesied that Christ would die for God’s “people”, but not all men are God’s people-only the elect. Acts 20:28 says that Christ purchased “the Church” with His blood, but not all men are the Church. Further, Rom. 8:32 says that if God gave Christ to die for us, then He will surely give us all other things. Since He does not give all these things of salvation to all men, then it follows that Christ was not given for them at the Cross in this special way. Christ died so as to make possible the salvation of all men, but He died to make definite the salvation of the elect alone. It was designed for the elect.

Again, there are many objections to this truth, but they can all be answered by pointing out that no man deserved for Christ to die for him. Actually, there is no dispute that Christ did not die for Satan or the demons; the atonement is clearly limited there. But the non-elect are in the same situation as Satan-none will be saved because none were elected. The thing to keep in mind is that the atonement was designed for the elect.

From, Biblical Calvinism by Curt Daniel. There are other Scriptures that show that Christ died for us/elect/beloved/her/bride/Church/sheep/friend in His atoning death, in it's propitiation or ransom it is for the all men, in that God loves the world by giving His only Son, while the designed death of Christ is for His people for their sins as well as the worlds, but to eternal life only to His people.

This completely contradicts Gods Word which makes this doctrines of demons pure and simple.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree completely. However, those who are lost and not called according to God's purpose through his Son are hated by God and therefore experience his wrath and condemnation on the day of judgment.

Edit:

And let's not forget:

1 John 4
19 We love him because he first loved us.

I agree with most of this, and amen, We love only because he first loved us, Until we experience Gods love in salvation, we do not have the capacity to love others.

However, just like with Isreal who committed adultery against him for centuries, by worshiping false Gods and doing what they desired, He still loved them and desired to take them under his wing, yet they were not willing

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Yeah, so God allowed them to go to hell, and never gave them a chance, yet Jesus said he willed for all Israel to be saved, he could draw them like a mother hen draws her chicks, but it was not because he was unwilling, it was because they were unwilling.

you all take the reknowledge and omniscience out of the equation. I d not draw people to me I know want nothing to do with me, and I am not God, yet we see it in practice, God knows who are his, and draws them. NOT because they are special people but because God d knows they will respond, he called many, but few are chosen, because only a few believe

AMEN,very well said.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Regeneration precedes faith. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and no lost person has the fruit of the Spirit. They are born again, saved at the same time.

If God chose you unto salvation before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time when you were a child of wrath and lost in your sins. Never. Do you believe this to be true?

Now that's a good question.Sounds like they are saying GOD Is fair to some not ALL.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes God loves every soul He ever created. This is why you cannot understand Gods person. It is sin that God hates and not the souls of men.

If you did not have yourself so puffed up you might catch a glimpse of Gods mercy to man who is corrupted by sin. Every soul that is cast into hell is cast there against Gods will. It is mans will that he cleave to his sin and it will cost him eternal condemnation.

Everyone is an Arminian until they get saved then some become Calvinists.

By the way those told I never knew you are nations not individuals. Context that pesky thing that upsets proof texts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Then you have just impugned God's immutability. This "God loves the sinner but hates the sin" makes for really really good bumper sticker theology, but is not biblical. He hates all those who work iniquity.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm just disappointed when 'saved' Christians still have the same understanding as before being saved.

Something should have changed.

Read their posts. It's all about 'I chose', 'I humbled myself', it's all about 'the power of I'.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No.... Not everyone accepts. It's about ACCEPTANCE and CHOOSING Jesus. Has no one read John 3:16? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life."

You bypassed my posts showing you the definition of the Greek word 'helkuo' which means to drag off. It does not mean that He drags us kicking and screaming to Him, but He effectually draws us. Then in John 6 Jesus says all the Father gave Him WILL come.

I am amazed, perplexed, and heart broken at how ppl view God's power to save ppl is nothing more than the power of persuasion. That God tries His very very best to save, but unless the lost give Him consent, He can't save them. Who's God?

 

[Denadii]

Then you have just impugned God's immutability. This "God loves the sinner but hates the sin" makes for really really good bumper sticker theology, but is not biblical. He hates all those who work iniquity.

You said "He hates all those who work iniquity" So how does that line up with
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

[h=3]John 3:16 ESV[/h][h=3][/h] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Romans 11:32 - For God hath concluded (included) them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

What you say contradicts these verses.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I was going to try and read all of the posts, but I'm not going to. This predestined idea is hogwash. God wants everyone. He says it over and over in His word. The thought that He would come to suffer as He did, and not include everyone; to be separated from the Father, for just some people and not others; it's ludicrous.

God knew who would accept Him and who wouldn't. But He didn't choose some over others. He knows ahead of time, but that doesn't make those who would accept Him "predestined".

Jesus' sacrifice was big enough for ALL. Whether or not people CHOOSE to accept that, when the Holy Spirit draws them, is their choice.

Seems like they would understand the nature of GOD better than they do,but alas,they don't ,how does one argue their points.

 

[SovereignGrace]

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commended his love toward us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:6-8

Look at the context of Romans 5. It is referring to the believers, not mankind en toto.

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

This is referring to all mankind. Context is key.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures . . 1 Cor. 15:3

He died for our[the context is Paul addressing the believers at the church of Corinth] sins and rose again for our[again the context is believers, as they are the only one who are justified] justification.[Romans 4:25]

Jesus gave his life for ALL who have sinned. ALL w/o exception. ALL with distinction will be saved . . . those that believe in him.

And yet He said He gives His life for the sheep. Then Ephesians 5:25 says He died for the body of believers.