BAPTISM --- TWICE ??

[eternally-gratefull]

EG

The parable was told by Jesus to show many things ---
But the main reason was to show that the FATHER is Always willing to forgive and take the son back.

TAKE HIM BACK.

The parable IS about the lost son.
THE LOST son.

Lost can only mean one thing.... if you're not saved, you're lost.

It's difficult for those who believe in eternal security to get around this. They say that he was still the son.

But he had already received ALL his inheritance when he left. He was going to get NO MORE if he had not come back.

Read it agan with a clear mind...

I have read it 1000 times, In no time did Jesus say the son stopped being the son, He was still the son, He left his father, which means his means to be blessed ON EARTH were lost to him, he basically died to his fathers blessings, Which is why he returned in the first place. When you have ti all, and you lose it, It forces you back. because you can only go down so far until you are forced to return, because you have lost everything.

That's why a true child of God will always return, vs a not true child of God, who will continue to live in the world with no remorse of feeling of loss, Because they never had what God is offering to begin with.

Those are the two points to the parable

a lost son will come back because he is lost in the world, which he is a stranger in, and can not survive without his fathers things

religious people if they are not careful can be so proud, they get mad when a lost child comes back and they seem to get rewarded, while the one who stayed seems to be punished.

Now, will you please read it with a clear mind?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do you mean "God baptizes you"?
Have some scripture??

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16
John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 1:33
I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Romans 6:3-4[SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Colossians 2:11
[ Not Legalism but Christ ] In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, [SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

all these are spirit baptism Not water baptism. as many say,,





[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[hornetguy]

Think of this.
Something Dcon touched on...

The signs of the Covenants.

In the O.C. the sign was circumcision. Babies were circumcised.

In the N.C. the sign is baptism. So if we're going to substitute circumcision with baptism, MAYBE babies should be baptized...

(some theologians believe communion is the sign of the N.C. because of the Last Supper)

If you try to do a direct, exact comparison, then women should not be baptized.... women could not be circumcised, it was only the males.

although I DO think that baptism is OUR sign of joining in with the new covenant, just as circumcision was for the old covenant. I just don't think it is a direct copy... otherwise, most Christians would be baptized at 8 days, and women would be not required to be baptized at all.

 

[hornetguy]

Look, learn the difference between John's baptism,which was by water only, and learn the difference between Jesus baptism which is by fir(The Holy Spirit) John could not save a soul, only lead them to repentance so that Jesus could save them by his baptism.

Jesus' baptism was of water AND the Spirit... too many scriptural references show us that water baptism is expected of us.

 

[hornetguy]

all these are spirit baptism Not water baptism. as many say,,

I disagree with this statement. There is no indication that all of those were about only "spiritual" baptism...

 

[Nehemiah6]

The pastor there told my Brother, Frank, that he should be baptized again if he wanted to join the "community".

Unfortunately the pastor gave you brother the wrong reason to be baptized. He should have done what Philip did when the Ethiopian eunuch requested baptism. IOW the proper Christian biblical baptism is believer's baptism by immersion (and this is presented over and over again in The Acts of the Apostles). Infant baptism is essentially meaningless.

If your brother became a genuine believer as an adult and knows that he has been born again and received the gift of the Holy Spirit, then he must be baptized as a believer, not to "join the community", but to obey Christ. Water baptism is a command and the correct sequence is shown in Acts 10:44-48:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus' baptism was of water AND the Spirit... too many scriptural references show us that water baptism is expected of us.

Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness...

 

[Gabriel2020]

ST. MATTHEW; 20; 22; But Jesus answered and said; Ye know not what ye ask,Are ye able to drink of the cup that Ishall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him,We are able.23; And he answered unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup,and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; [ This baptism Jesus was talking about was the Holy Ghost, because none had recieved it until he ascended. They all had already been baptized with water by John .

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Jesus was baptized one time.
By John the Baptist in the River Jordan when He was about 30 years old.

When Jesus was a baby, He was presented at the temple, to the LORD. (God Father).
According to the Law of Moses.
Jesus was the first born.
Numbers 3:13

It's what we would call today, dedicating the baby to God.

That is the word I was looking for DEDICATING thank you. I actually red in a Jewish journal that they call it baptism (infant dedication) and that is why I said baptised twice. Sorry for the misunderstanding

 

[FranC]

Again, It is not a bad word.

You state you work to maintain your salvation, To most people. That is your reward.

That's why people speak against your form of works. We hate works as used to gain salvation, Not the works God tells all his children to do.

people who do work based solely on the fact God said it is a good thing to do. and we will be blessed if we do them, Do it and expect nothing in return, even the maintaining of their salvation.

EG,

How is heaven the reward for "working"?

I received heaven when I met the Lord and became born from above and my spirit was joined with His spirit and I became alive and dead to satan.

I work because Jesus said to. He told me how I must BE and what I must DO. He said if I love Him I will obey His commandments. How many times have I posted this? I could make it much more difficult, but this is simple and Jesus made everything simple to understand. A disciple MUST do what the master instructs.

We don't work because IT IS A GOOD THING TO DO, as you said.
We work because JESUS SAID TO.

Of course, it's a good thing to do. Did Jesus ever say to do a bad thing?
I feel we have to get away from hyper grace teachings. Jesus NEVER taught hyper grac. He NEVER said JUST BELIEVE IN ME.
He DID SAY what we are to do (Mathew 25 for instance) and He DID SAY how we are to BE. (the Beatitudes in Mathew).

THIS is what the Master expects of us. We MUST do what He expects. There's is no getting around this.

I already have what I want, I do not do works to get some "reward" but because I'm told to.

Above you say this:

"We hate works as used to gain salvation, Not the works God tells all his children to do. "

1. We do not gain salvation by doing works. Salvation is by the goodness of God obtaned through our Faith in Him.

2. WHAT are the works God tells His children to do?


Please answer question 2 since I don't understand what works you're speaking about.


(this is your favorite topic!)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree with this statement. There is no indication that all of those were about only "spiritual" baptism...

Thats ok, There is no indication it is water, The word baptizo itself in the greek does not have water attached to it. It must be taken into context.

Being baptized INTO CHRIST is not the same as being baptized INTO WATER. And john clearly seperated baptism in water with the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT and Baptism of FIRE

think of baptism as being an action verb, where as the thing one is baptized into is what follows.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG,

How is heaven the reward for "working"?

I received heaven when I met the Lord and became born from above and my spirit was joined with His spirit and I became alive and dead to satan.

Then why do you not preach this? if this is true, then you could never lose heaven, it is yours, it is guaranteed, it could never be lost.

I work because Jesus said to. He told me how I must BE and what I must DO. He said if I love Him I will obey His commandments. How many times have I posted this? I could make it much more difficult, but this is simple and Jesus made everything simple to understand. A disciple MUST do what the master instructs.

We don't work because IT IS A GOOD THING TO DO, as you said.
We work because JESUS SAID TO.

Of course, it's a good thing to do. Did Jesus ever say to do a bad thing?

Everything up to here, I prety much agree with, And this is why I work also. Except for one small thing, I do not do it because I must, I do it because I WANT TO. Because Gods way is so much better than the worlds way, It is proven every time I do it. And I do it out of gratitude for what God gave me (hence my name) and I do it because I know God has my best interest at heart, and would never tell me to do something that would hurt me.

Now, You forgot to tell us the one thing you also do it for, you tell us all the time, To maintain your salvation. That makes heaven a reward, because your working to keep it. and not lose your right to enter in.

And it is not just a good thing to do, It is the best thing to do.

I feel we have to get away from hyper grace teachings. Jesus NEVER taught hyper grac. He NEVER said JUST BELIEVE IN ME.
He DID SAY what we are to do (Mathew 25 for instance) and He DID SAY how we are to BE. (the Beatitudes in Mathew).

Well he said have faith in me, and I will save you, and I will give you rest, And I will make you able to work. because I will make you a new creation based on the fact you trusted me,

Yes Jesus did teach grace, and Gods grace is hyper, it can not get more free than it always is to the reliever of it. It can never be earned, otherwise, it is not grace it is works.

But I agree, we have to get off these doctrine names like hypergrace and OSAS and just believe what God said instead of trying to disproof some doctrine we hate.

THIS is what the Master expects of us. We MUST do what He expects. There's is no getting around this.

I already have what I want, I do not do works to get some "reward" but because I'm told to.

Above you say this:

"We hate works as used to gain salvation, Not the works God tells all his children to do. "

1. We do not gain salvation by doing works. Salvation is by the goodness of God obtaned through our Faith in Him.

2. WHAT are the works God tells His children to do?


Please answer question 2 since I don't understand what works you're speaking about.


(this is your favorite topic!)

How many times do I have to answer question 2. This really gets old fran, if I did not know better I would think you were being dishonest, and keep asking the same question over and over just to upset me.

Go back and look at my posts, I have answered this so many times I lost track.

Do you work to maintain salvation or not? Yes or no will suffice..( I already know the answer of course, You said you do many times over, just like I have answered you what a good work as apposed to a work of the flesh is many times)

 

[FranC]

I have read it 1000 times, In no time did Jesus say the son stopped being the son, He was still the son, He left his father, which means his means to be blessed ON EARTH were lost to him, he basically died to his fathers blessings, Which is why he returned in the first place. When you have ti all, and you lose it, It forces you back. because you can only go down so far until you are forced to return, because you have lost everything.

That's why a true child of God will always return, vs a not true child of God, who will continue to live in the world with no remorse of feeling of loss, Because they never had what God is offering to begin with.

Those are the two points to the parable

a lost son will come back because he is lost in the world, which he is a stranger in, and can not survive without his fathers things

religious people if they are not careful can be so proud, they get mad when a lost child comes back and they seem to get rewarded, while the one who stayed seems to be punished.

Now, will you please read it with a clear mind?

I'm sorry EG.
I have to disagree.

Maybe we should have a thread on this parable.

First of all, it's my favorite and MUCH could be gleaned from it.

Second of all, it would clear up misundersandings because some want to make it mean
what it does not.

This doesn't mean that you're wrong about the Brother that stayed home, but that's not WHY
the parable was told.

In fact, just check out the TITLE of the parable:

In some bibles it's called THE PRODIGAL SON. NASB (prodigal --- one who squanders money, or anything)
And in some bibles it's called THE PARABLE OF THE LOST SON NIV

In the two parables just before this one, they're titled:
THE LOST SHEEP
THE LOST COIN

Sometimes just the title of the parable could help. These three parables are about being LOST and FOUND, not about te son who stayed home and resented his own treatment --- although we could speak to that also.

In some Italian bibles the title is: THE MERCIFUL FATHER. He was Merciful to the Prodigal Son...

It is told to show that a person could be saved, then lost, then saved again. Because God is a loving God.
Luke 15:24
"for this son of mine was DEAD, and has come to LIFE AGAIN, he was lost, and has been found...".

AGAIN means the lost son was found TWO times and not just ONCE.
Once when he was a son, and then once again when he returned home.

 

[FranC]

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16
John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 1:33
I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Romans 6:3-4[SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Colossians 2:11
[ Not Legalism but Christ ] In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, [SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

all these are spirit baptism Not water baptism. as many say,,





[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

OK.

The first few is GOD baptizing with the Holy Spirit.
The next are men baptizing...

But I see what you mean.
Only God can baptize with the Holy Spirit. Without water...

Thanks.

 

[FranC]

Unfortunately the pastor gave you brother the wrong reason to be baptized. He should have done what Philip did when the Ethiopian eunuch requested baptism. IOW the proper Christian biblical baptism is believer's baptism by immersion (and this is presented over and over again in The Acts of the Apostles). Infant baptism is essentially meaningless.

If your brother became a genuine believer as an adult and knows that he has been born again and received the gift of the Holy Spirit, then he must be baptized as a believer, not to "join the community", but to obey Christ. Water baptism is a command and the correct sequence is shown in Acts 10:44-48:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Of course I agree with you.
Persons who go to a Church like the Nazarene Church are most probably born again.

But, yes, Frank is born again and it's not ONLY to belong to the community.
But the pastor feels the infant baptism was not valid.
This is more the point of this thread.

Your statements are all good. IF it was only for that reason, he should NOT be baptized again.

You do bring up an interesting point in the verses you posted:

Acts 10:47

This clearly shows that some received the Holy Spirit and THEN they were baptized with water.

Any comment?

 

[FranC]

ST. MATTHEW; 20; 22; But Jesus answered and said; Ye know not what ye ask,Are ye able to drink of the cup that Ishall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him,We are able.23; And he answered unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup,and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; [ This baptism Jesus was talking about was the Holy Ghost, because none had recieved it until he ascended. They all had already been baptized with water by John .

Mathew 20:22 is speaking about the batptism of the crucifixion. NOT the Holy Ghost.

 

[garee]

I would offer. The foundation of h20 baptism is an Old Testament ceremonial purifying law as a shadow used to represent the unseen faith principle. It was used when a person desired to be part of the Leviticus priesthood as a kingdom of priest that required a Levite to administer it. It pointed to Christ our high priest.

Its foundation is not founded on the New Testament but continues in it.

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Joh 3:25

Therefore before Christ started His ministry as a priest He subjected Himself under that law that again needed as Levite (John) as a kingdom of priest to administer that shadow. This qualified Jesus from the tribe of Judah who had become a member of the Leviticus priesthood of believers to baptize others.

In that way all Christian are members as if they were Levites to hold out the gospel. Like all ceremonial law they did not make the person getting wet perfect. Arrons two sons died to show it was a shadow . We walk by faith and not by sight

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm sorry EG.
I have to disagree.

Maybe we should have a thread on this parable.

First of all, it's my favorite and MUCH could be gleaned from it.

Second of all, it would clear up misundersandings because some want to make it mean
what it does not.

This doesn't mean that you're wrong about the Brother that stayed home, but that's not WHY
the parable was told.

In fact, just check out the TITLE of the parable:

In some bibles it's called THE PRODIGAL SON. NASB (prodigal --- one who squanders money, or anything)
And in some bibles it's called THE PARABLE OF THE LOST SON NIV

In the two parables just before this one, they're titled:
THE LOST SHEEP
THE LOST COIN

Sometimes just the title of the parable could help. These three parables are about being LOST and FOUND, not about te son who stayed home and resented his own treatment --- although we could speak to that also.

In some Italian bibles the title is: THE MERCIFUL FATHER. He was Merciful to the Prodigal Son...

It is told to show that a person could be saved, then lost, then saved again. Because God is a loving God.
Luke 15:24
"for this son of mine was DEAD, and has come to LIFE AGAIN, he was lost, and has been found...".

AGAIN means the lost son was found TWO times and not just ONCE.
Once when he was a son, and then once again when he returned home.

we will have to agree to disagree.

The son never stopped being the son,

Thats all we need to know.. His fathers blood still ran through his viens, He was still has fathers son.

Yes he was lost, But that does not mean he was not his fathers son.

This passage is a very controversial passage, The workers want you to see it as he lost salvation, then returned and was re-saved.

The grace people see it as he lost his fathers help in this lifetime, and because of it, he realised he was lost on his own, and had to return.

and we will never see eye to eye unless we figure out the salvation part first.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK.

The first few is GOD baptizing with the Holy Spirit.
The next are men baptizing...

But I see what you mean.
Only God can baptize with the Holy Spirit. Without water...

Thanks.

No, the next are not men baptizing, they all are god baptizing, Man does not have the power to take us back 2000 plus years to baptize us into the burial and death of Christ, Only God can. Man does not have the power to baptize us into Christ, Only God can.

Men can baptize you into water, God can baptize you into Christs death, burial and body. Colossians said it was the working of God who raised him from the dead (HS) 1 cor says it was by the spirit we are baptised,

No man can do this. To say man can is to give credit due the Holy Spirit to man, and this if nothing else. should scare people, because it is no different than the pharisee attributing the work of the HS in Christs miracles to Satan, Where Jesus called it blasphemy of the spirit.

 

[FranC]

Then why do you not preach this? if this is true, then you could never lose heaven, it is yours, it is guaranteed, it could never be lost.

EG,
I'm not here to PREACH!
My original intent to being here is because I like to talk about biblical principles and God. I don't get to do this much anymore since moving here.

What would make you think I don't know what salvation is? Because I like to say that it's REQUIRED to follow God's moral Laws?

As far as guaranteeing --- The N.T. does not GUARANTEE my salvation. It's only guaranteed IF I'm STILL SAVED when I die.
IF I still am believing in Jesus for my salvation. The sealing of the Holy Spirit is very much misunderstood. We are SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, IF we leave the Holy Spirit, we are not longer sealed by Him. I know you don't agree with this.

Check out 2 Corinthians 6:16-18
Paul is saying that we are a temple and that God will walk with us IF we come out of the world and are separate from the world and do not touch what is unclean AND GOD WILL WELCOME US. HE will be our FAther and we will be His SONS, IF we do what He says...

Also, Ephesians 1:14

New International Version
"..who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

Some bibles say guarantee, some bibles say earnest (KJV) or deposit (NIV).
In EITHER CASE, they ALL say UNTIL our redemption-- or our being gotten back forever--eternal life.
UNTIL means it did not happen yet... Paul himself said, "I press on" --- he's CONTUING, he's NOT THERE YET.
Philippians 3:14 New International Version (NIV)

14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.



Everything up to here, I prety much agree with, And this is why I work also. Except for one small thing, I do not do it because I must, I do it because I WANT TO. Because Gods way is so much better than the worlds way, It is proven every time I do it. And I do it out of gratitude for what God gave me (hence my name) and I do it because I know God has my best interest at heart, and would never tell me to do something that would hurt me.

Now, You forgot to tell us the one thing you also do it for, you tell us all the time, To maintain your salvation. That makes heaven a reward, because your working to keep it. and not lose your right to enter in.

As you can see in the above verse in Philippians, Paul also calls it a prize. So maybe heaven is the reward. I'm not used to speaking in these terms. I don't really care for it. I belong to the Kingdom of God. I follow its laws and rules. I'm ALREADY in heaven and plan to stay there. Of course there is no guarantee, but if it's up to me, I will be in the Kingdom when I die.

If you continue reading in Philippians 3:14-20 you'll see the above being spoken of by Paul.

As I said, OF COURSE we do works because we love God and thank Jesus. BUT think of those reading along, maybe new Christians... we all need to understand that Jesus did not REQUEST us to do good works because we love Him,
HE DEMANDED that we do good works IF we want to be in His Kingdom, right here on earth.

Philippians 3:14-20 New International Version (NIV)

14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Following Paul’s Example

15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

17 Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do.
18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.

19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

This should remind you of Mathew 7:21...

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father..."
And it is not just a good thing to do, It is the best thing to do.


Well he said have faith in me, and I will save you, and I will give you rest, And I will make you able to work. because I will make you a new creation based on the fact you trusted me,

Where is this scripture? I'm not familiar with it... please post scripture.
Yes Jesus did teach grace, and Gods grace is hyper, it can not get more free than it always is to the reliever of it. It can never be earned, otherwise, it is not grace it is works.

But I agree, we have to get off these doctrine names like hypergrace and OSAS and just believe what God said instead of trying to disproof some doctrine we hate.

But doctrine names tell of a belief! There's nothing wrong with saying "eternal security" or "OSAS". It can but down the discussion quite a bit...


How many times do I have to answer question 2. This really gets old fran, if I did not know better I would think you were being dishonest, and keep asking the same question over and over just to upset me.

Go back and look at my posts, I have answered this so many times I lost track.

I'm sorry EG. I REALLY can't remember. At least you've come to the conclusion that I'm honest and for this I thank you. I do my best...
Do you work to maintain salvation or not? Yes or no will suffice..( I already know the answer of course, You said you do many times over, just like I have answered you what a good work as apposed to a work of the flesh is many times)[/COLOR


Oh. You're talking about a work as opposed to a work of the flesh?

We're not supposed to be doing works of the flesh. Maybe this is why I don't understand what you mean.
By works of the flesh, you mean... it can't be sin...
I'm a little confused...If you don't want to explain, it's OK.

ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc